First plane purchase- Piper Dakota

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zbrown5

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Zach
Hi all-

Been lurking for awhile but this is my first post- been flying for about 8 years and finally thinking about the plunge to ownership. A lot of 182 and Arrow time, I am looking for a Piper Dakota (or a 182 but the Dakota seems a little bit faster and cheaper to acquire). Flying a A36 that costs me $250/hr to rent so I figure I might as well own something if I am spending $1200-$1500 a month on flying all in.

Right now the one I am looking at has 4000 TT, 2100 SMOH but making good compression and power. It has a nice panel with a 530w and 430. Ugly blue cloth interior. He is asking $85k. What do you think- I can't post a link because I don't have enough posts on the forum for it to let me! There are others for $100k with mid time engines and less fancy panels. I'm inclined to treat a mid-time engine that I don't know how well its been treated the same as a 2000 hour engine that's running well, bearing in mind that i may be replacing it in a year anyway.

My local A&P says to run the engine if its running well until it isn't. I wonder if the prudent thing to do is just have the engine replaced right away and lump it into the purchase price of the airplane. What do you think?


Thanks- open to any and all opinions and tributes from any Dakota / Kee 235 owners.
 
[Don't put much stock in this] Seems he's over-valuing the stack and under-valuing cost of the coming overhaul.

This post is not in the classifieds so I'll just say the price looks 'optimistic.'
 
Our A&P says to run the Dakota until there's a reason not to (oil analysis, filter inspections). The derated engines generally go well beyond TBO, he says.
check ours out at the link below.

Edit - just noticed we have to update our photos. The Dakota is sporting a pretty new paint job. Pics found elsewhere on this forum.
 
He’s about 10k over Vref. I was thinking I could maybe pick it up for 75. Maybe that’s optimistic. It also has the speed mods (flap gap seals etc) which should be worth something. It’s on Trade A Plane.
 
zbrown5 said:
That’s what I wondered. It also seems like turbo planes bring less money at times because of the upkeep?
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I am of the opinion that in the case of the turbo lance vs NA Lance, yes that's where the discount resides. Not in the T-tail v straight tail variation as is often touted.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I am of the opinion that in the case of the turbo lance vs NA Lance, yes that's where the discount resides. Not in the T-tail v straight tail variation as is often touted.
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I have a few hours in. T tail NA lance. Not a fan of her handling characteristics especially after hopping in the a36. But it was a far more usable plane than the a36.
 
You might get another 500 hrs on that engine or more, or less. How many years since overhaul?
Borescope the cylinders and look at the exhaust valves. How many hours on the Prop hub?

Sure, run the engine until you can’t. You’re putting your family in that plane. That’s why they have “recommended “ TBO.

We just completed an overhaul on an O-540, fixed pitch, $31K plus R&R costs. Plus prop recondition. Plus engine mount rebuild.
How many hours on the magnetos, have they had the 500hr overhaul?

Also need to consider cost for ADS-B out. That will be the first cost.

Me thinks it might be priced a little high.
 
I have been bitten by the "engine/compressions is running strong but over TBO" thing on my first aircraft a Cherokee Warrior. Only advice I could give you from my past experience is if your buying a plane with the engine being over TBO, have the funds or be prepared for an overhaul immediately. Factor it into your purchase price. Call around and get quotes. Never expect to get another 25 hours let alone 500 hours out of it. Sure the Dakota having a de-rated O-540 has a much better shot at going beyond TBO than other aircraft engine combinations but just be prepared. You dont how it was being treated the past 2000 hours. Not trying to be negative I hope if you buy this bird you get another 1000 hours out of it. It seems the dakotas are wicked expensive for what they are though. Anything with good P&I low to mid time engine and good avionics will be around 130k. Seems alot for a souped up cherokee.. Comparable piper arrows are about 40-50k less. You lose some useful load and have to maintain the gear but you get about the same cruise speed on a lower fuel burn and get a fuel injected engine. If filling all 4 seats in hot weather at density altitudes is a must though, the Dakota can't be beat.
 
AnthonyS1 said:
I have been bitten by the "engine/compressions is running strong but over TBO" thing on my first aircraft a Cherokee Warrior. Only advice I could give you from my past experience is if your buying a plane with the engine being over TBO, have the funds or be prepared for an overhaul immediately. Factor it into your purchase price. Call around and get quotes. Never expect to get another 25 hours let alone 500 hours out of it. Sure the Dakota having a de-rated O-540 has a much better shot at going beyond TBO than other aircraft engine combinations but just be prepared. You dont how it was being treated the past 2000 hours. Not trying to be negative I hope if you buy this bird you get another 1000 hours out of it. It seems the dakotas are wicked expensive for what they are though. Anything with good P&I low to mid time engine and good avionics will be around 130k. Seems alot for a souped up cherokee.. Comparable piper arrows are about 40-50k less. You lose some useful load and have to maintain the gear but you get about the same cruise speed on a lower fuel burn and get a fuel injected engine. If filling all 4 seats in hot weather at density altitudes is a must though, the Dakota can't be beat.
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Arrow owner here. My objection to the pre-charger/pathfinder 235s have always been the same, all that useful and no volume, especially compared to its primary competition, the 182. As to dakotas, again, all that $$ premium for the same width-challenged cherokee cabin. These airplanes are popular around the crowd that overestimates the aggregate mx costs of retracts, especially piper retracts. Cessna high wings I can understand (those actuator$$$$ and pivot$$$ yo!), but piper beech and mooneys? Meh.

If I needed more useful than my arrow has, that means I'm more than likely trying to stuff more people and things in the same volume. Which means a six-260 would be where I would want to be, not another cherokee.

Of course, 182s are out to lunch right now on the price front, so the Dakotas are not the only ones guilty of overvaluation right now.

As to over TBO engines not getting ya 25 hours, I understand what you mean about being ready to pay for an engine overhaul, but I argue you have to be ready with a mid time engine too (most mid time engines are calendar timed out anyways, not that calendar time means anything to a part 91 operator either). My warrior went 220 hours over TBO and still going when I sold it to an exporter. It wasn't pretty, it drank oil by the case, but 220 hours a heck of a lot more than 25. Everybody has their comfort factor, risk aversion, religion or whatever. Plenty o people have got bit by mid time engines enough so that beyond resale value considerations, I'm not really swayed by the hours.Ccertainly not to the degree recent (24 month revolving period) use history does sway me to buy or not buy a particular sample of an airplane.
 
gkainz said:
Our A&P says to run the Dakota until there's a reason not to (oil analysis, filter inspections). The derated engines generally go well beyond TBO, he says.
check ours out at the link below.

Edit - just noticed we have to update our photos. The Dakota is sporting a pretty new paint job. Pics found elsewhere on this forum.
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Is this your APs opinion on operating it Pt91, or on how to value said aircraft.
Those are two VERY different things.

The plane has a run out engine on it, my offer depending on condition, avionics etc would be probably 1/2 to 3/4 of that asking price. If a runout PA28 is worth 85k guess my plane is worth a half mil.
 
I have a Dakota and am based in Reno where in the summer DA over 8000' is normal. When I bought it 4 years ago I paid $125K for a 500-hour engine and good avionics, paint and interior. Just know that you are going to have to put a lot of money into this and it may be better to find one that is already in that condition.

140kts, 12gph, very easy to fly and work on.

They are great planes. If I ever upgrade it would be to an A36-Bo or maybe a Mooney.
 
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James331 said:
Is this your APs opinion on operating it Pt91, or on how to value said aircraft.
Those are two VERY different things.

The plane has a run out engine on it, my offer depending on condition, avionics etc would be probably 1/2 to 3/4 of that asking price. If a runout PA28 is worth 85k guess my plane is worth a half mil.
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Maybe 3/4ths but not 1/2 for that Dakota. It will sell. The current market for them and 182's is truly ridiculous for what they are right now at least in my opinion.
 
AnthonyS1 said:
Maybe 3/4ths but not 1/2 for that Dakota. It will sell. The current market for them and 182's is truly ridiculous for what they are right now at least in my opinion.
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I’m not in the Dakota market that much, just another PA28 fixed gear for me, the one I flew was like the F250 version of a Cherokee.

For that money you can get way more airplane, PA24, C180, Maule, etc
 
James331 said:
The plane has a run out engine on it, my offer depending on condition, avionics etc would be probably 1/2 to 3/4 of that asking price. If a runout PA28 is worth 85k guess my plane is worth a half mil.
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Haha, yeah buddy, sounds like you haven't been dabbling in the market as of late. I made an offer to a high time Lance seller the other day and hoo boy, that'll teach me to not follow my own advice and stay the heck out of that melee until the Fall. They're all high on, and to ironically quote that crook Alan Greenspan: "irrational exuberance". It's all good; the Arrow will have to do for our spring break trips this year. 1st world problems and what not. This will all blow over by next Xmas. But I hear ya on the present valuations. I blame cheap access to credit.
 
Since the Dakota has an O-540 de-rated to 235hp, I always wondered why there isn't an STC to re-rate it to higher HP.
 
I flew a guy's plane that was about 300 hours over TBO. It was running great right until the day that it didn't. No warning other than one day during runup it just wouldn't make rpms on run up.


find one under TBO or be prepared to put a new engine in.
 
FYI... There is a 1976 Lancer on there that looks to be a pretty good deal for $59K OBO from someone that lost their medical.
 
ByrdmanFL said:
FYI... There is a 1976 Lancer on there that looks to be a pretty good deal for $59K OBO from someone that lost their medical.
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Yeah, I contacted them. No response yet. If that thing hasn't been sold yet, I'm sure there's a story at that price. And this is coming from a guy who won't turn its nose at a 11K TT freight hauler with multiple nose gear collapses mind you. But you're right, 100% of not getting what you don't ask for. LOL
 
What about an arrow? Nicely equipped with a new interior for about the same money. 1600 TSOH, 700 STOH, 600 SPOH. I used to fly an arrow and enjoyed the efficiency for the speed.

EDIT- As much as I like the Cherokee 6 platform I don't think I am ready to own a plane that large yet.
 
zbrown5 said:
Hi all-


Right now the one I am looking at has 4000 TT, 2100 SMOH but making good compression and power. It has a nice panel with a 530w and 430. Ugly blue cloth interior. He is asking $85k. What do you think- I can't post a link because I don't have enough posts on the forum for it to let me! There are others for $100k with mid time engines and less fancy panels. I'm inclined to treat a mid-time engine that I don't know how well its been treated the same as a 2000 hour engine that's running well, bearing in mind that i may be replacing it in a year anyway.
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Is this it?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...del=DAKOTA&listing_id=2337649&s-type=aircraft
 
Wow, I didn't know that Dakotas were that popular. I guess if you have your heart set on a Dakota, that price seems a little high to me. I'd guess $35,000 for an engine rebuild puts you at $120,000 for a nice fixed leg PA28. If you'd consider something else, here's a turbo Arrow with 2850 TT and 910 SMOH for only $59,000. Even if you put $25,000 into the instrument panel, you still only have $84,000 into it with a lot of hours until TBO. Just my $0.02. Good luck
 
lancie00 said:
Wow, I didn't know that Dakotas were that popular. I guess if you have your heart set on a Dakota, that price seems a little high to me. I'd guess $35,000 for an engine rebuild puts you at $120,000 for a nice fixed leg PA28. If you'd consider something else, here's a turbo Arrow with 2850 TT and 910 SMOH for only $59,000. Even if you put $25,000 into the instrument panel, you still only have $84,000 into it with a lot of hours until TBO. Just my $0.02. Good luck
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I’d offer $2k less just because of how ugly that spinner is.
 
lancie00 said:
Wow, I didn't know that Dakotas were that popular. I guess if you have your heart set on a Dakota, that price seems a little high to me. I'd guess $35,000 for an engine rebuild puts you at $120,000 for a nice fixed leg PA28. If you'd consider something else, here's a turbo Arrow with 2850 TT and 910 SMOH for only $59,000. Even if you put $25,000 into the instrument panel, you still only have $84,000 into it with a lot of hours until TBO. Just my $0.02. Good luck
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T-arrow based in S Florida? It's not the panel you're gonna be sinking those 25 AMUs on I can tell you that much.To quote my girl Ariana...
giphy.gif
 
Wow - I guess I just got a smokin' deal on my T-Lance. The Dakota price for an engine that might not make it home, seems kinda high.

(but, I really WAS looking for a smoking deal when I got mine.)
 
Rgbeard said:
Wow - I guess I just got a smokin' deal on my T-Lance. The Dakota price for an engine that might not make it home, seems kinda high.

(but, I really WAS looking for a smoking deal when I got mine.)
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Oh that engine will make it home. And yes, you did get a smoking deal on that Turbo Lance, especially if you got it in 2018 as you've stated. I've always said, the discount on the Lances is the turbo, not the tail. NA T-tails exhibited more price resiliency in the time I've been watching the market.

This market will pivot quickly on 3rd Qtr CY19. Brexit fallout, the consumer echo from the govt shutdown, weather implications to consumption this winter, fed rate hikes (projected), wageless-recovery unemployment garbage U3 numbers, holiday 2018 white and grey collar layoffs, potential fallout on the presidential front before the Fall, treasury yield curve already has inverted (for the 2 and 5 year notes). I don't foresee 2012 pricing returning on 2019, but a marked softening on discretionary expenditures will be visible imo. The effects are also force-multiplying. A signal of just one quarter slowdown (even if it's not a bona fide contraction) gives people the paranoia "hell, I guess that boat payment and the upgrade wife wasn't such a good idea..", and the panic ensues. Add one fed hike and they're starched on the mat for the vultures to come pick their toys.

BL, there's little point in digging for gold for the next 6 months. I troll sellers every now and then, but so far it's pretty clear they're hunkering down and hoping for the last suckers to grab it at the top. After October it's game over. That's why it pays to just give them your contact info and sit back. It's generally been more of an effective strategy on the "liquidity of transaction" front, if I may pick a euphemism.
 
asicer said:
Since the Dakota has an O-540 de-rated to 235hp, I always wondered why there isn't an STC to re-rate it to higher HP.
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Our O-540B2C5 was rated at 235HP fixed pitch. There is an STC to change the pistons to get 250HP, I think it may also change the exhaust valve.
Changes it to a 250HP Comanche A2D5 engine. But you can’t put an A2D5 engine on the Pawnee, it is not in the TCDS, but the STC can modify the B2C5 for the Pawnee. O-540-B2C5-A2D5
 
zbrown5 said:
Hi all-

Been lurking for awhile but this is my first post- been flying for about 8 years and finally thinking about the plunge to ownership. A lot of 182 and Arrow time, I am looking for a Piper Dakota (or a 182 but the Dakota seems a little bit faster and cheaper to acquire). Flying a A36 that costs me $250/hr to rent so I figure I might as well own something if I am spending $1200-$1500 a month on flying all in.

Right now the one I am looking at has 4000 TT, 2100 SMOH but making good compression and power. It has a nice panel with a 530w and 430. Ugly blue cloth interior. He is asking $85k. What do you think- I can't post a link because I don't have enough posts on the forum for it to let me! There are others for $100k with mid time engines and less fancy panels. I'm inclined to treat a mid-time engine that I don't know how well its been treated the same as a 2000 hour engine that's running well, bearing in mind that i may be replacing it in a year anyway.

My local A&P says to run the engine if its running well until it isn't. I wonder if the prudent thing to do is just have the engine replaced right away and lump it into the purchase price of the airplane. What do you think?


Thanks- open to any and all opinions and tributes from any Dakota / Kee 235 owners.
Click to expand...

Were you able to find a Dakota, I may have one for sale. Mark
 
BillTIZ said:
...Sure, run the engine until you can’t. You’re putting your family in that plane. That’s why they have “recommended “ TBO...
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Since I originally said that (run the engine until you can't) and after seeing it echoed back, I realize what I should have said was "run the engine until you see reason(s) not to" through filter inspections, oil analysis, etc. Poor choice of words on my part, especially when pointed out like above.
Thanks!
 
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