First Plane Minimum 200hp (Business Use) Keeping 3-5 Years - Suggestions?

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Sayajin

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Sayajin
This is my first post here so I first wanted to introduce myself and explain a bit about my Mission.

I am a business owner based out of the mid-west (Kansas primarily) that owns and visits business in Kansas as well as surrounding states. I am in the process of expansion and am working on growing to a few additional locations in 2024 that will also be mostly Mid-West and Central USA based. A friend of mine in the same industry has been telling me for the last few years that I am crazy to drive around from location to location and I need to just buy a plane and get my PPL. I finally broke down this year and decided he was right, especially with the imminent expansions plans. So I reached out to another buddy that runs the FBO at my local airport (also an A&P mechanic with Inspection Authorization) and had him connect me with the local CFI to get my PPL. At this point, I am working on completing my PPL and will immediately move to IFR, Complex and High HP certifications. One of the benefits of owning the business is that I have the flexibility and resources to dedicate the amount of time necessary to complete these goals in a reasonable period of time.

Now to my mission. I will be flying 2-3 round trip flights on most weeks. Most of my flying will be around 400 nautical miles or less, but I like the idea of being able to go a bit further if need be. 80% of the time I will be flying solo, with the other 10% being with one other adult and the final 10% being with my wife and 2 small (both under 5yo) children. Useful load is not of major importance to me as aside from fuel (and other obvious weight factors), I will generally only be flying with a suitcase of clothing.

Now to aircraft criteria. I don`t care about high wing or low wing. I am 90% decided on a 4 seater plane as I think I will get more bang for my buck than buying a 6 seater for the once in a blue moon it might be nice to have a bit of extra space. As I am flying often, speed is one of the biggest criteria for me (right after safety and airworthiness) followed by avionics as such, I am looking at aircraft with 200HP as a minimum (in all honesty, the only one that is not exactly 200hp on my list is the Commanche 250 (yes, I know I just said I wanted a 4 seater, but I have heard many positive things about them). IFR capable is a must have for me. I would like to have decent avionics, but don't need all top of the line. However, again, it has to be something I can use for IFR (so not the no longer supported Garmin 430 and 530 etc.) I don`t really care about fixed gear vs retractable with the exception that I believe most 200hp aircraft are retractable due to better aerodynamics. However, from an experience or insurance standpoint, it doesn't make a difference to me. Generally I am looking for something with a burn rate of 11-14gph but I also have some flexibility there as necessary. Generally I have been looking at aircraft that have 5000hrs TT or less and around 1000hrs SMOH or less, again there is some flexibility with this as well, especially based upon avionics.

Ideally I would like to spend under $120k for the aircraft, but I do have some flexibility in that number as necessary. I have no issues with insurance or hanger space or that kind of thing. As mentioned, a good friend of mine runs my local FBO, so many of the reoccurring costs aspects are handled.

Now this is the slightly different aspect for me. I am buying this aircraft knowing that I will only be owning it for 3-5 years with the most likely scenario being around 3 years but building in some "just in case" time into that. The reason for this is that business has been expanding rapidly and I expect to buy a faster 6 seater plane at that time as I will have more people traveling with me on a regular basis at that point as well as need to travel to more locations faster and more likely than not, further. That is the primary reason for me setting my budget where it is, I dont need nor plan to buy a $250k + aircraft to then have to try and sell it in a few years in a much softer market than our current market conditions. This is also the reason I am looking for an aircraft with decent avionics already, it doesnt make sense for me to make the investment in them to sell it shortly after. I need something that fits my mission criteria well for now, knowing those criteria will be changing in a few years and my aircraft along with it.

I had mostly narrowed down my search list to the Piper Arrow II or III. The Piper Archer was going to be my backup. I like the Cirrus SR20, but generally they are not in the price range I am looking at that meet my criteria. Similar with a Cessna 182, probably outside of my price range. However, my CFI as well as A&P Mechanic brought up the idea of the Cherokee 250 as an option. My reading on this forum brought me to think about including the Mooney M20 (they appear to have a cult following!).

So I figured instead of simply lurking and reading posts, I would sign up and ask for input and advice from much more experienced people than myself. Based upon my mission, goals, and timeframe to keep the aircraft, what would you recommend? As mentioned, ideally $120k or less, 200hp minimum, decent avionics, IFR capable, with decent hours knowing I am going to upgrade in a few years.

I appreciate the insight and please ask any questions as necessary!
 
Sayajin said:
This is my first post here so I first wanted to introduce myself and explain a bit about my Mission.

I am a business owner based out of the mid-west (Kansas primarily) that owns and visits business in Kansas as well as surrounding states. I am in the process of expansion and am working on growing to a few additional locations in 2024 that will also be mostly Mid-West and Central USA based. A friend of mine in the same industry has been telling me for the last few years that I am crazy to drive around from location to location and I need to just buy a plane and get my PPL. I finally broke down this year and decided he was right, especially with the imminent expansions plans. So I reached out to another buddy that runs the FBO at my local airport (also an A&P mechanic with Inspection Authorization) and had him connect me with the local CFI to get my PPL. At this point, I am working on completing my PPL and will immediately move to IFR, Complex and High HP certifications. One of the benefits of owning the business is that I have the flexibility and resources to dedicate the amount of time necessary to complete these goals in a reasonable period of time.

Now to my mission. I will be flying 2-3 round trip flights on most weeks. Most of my flying will be around 400 nautical miles or less, but I like the idea of being able to go a bit further if need be. 80% of the time I will be flying solo, with the other 10% being with one other adult and the final 10% being with my wife and 2 small (both under 5yo) children. Useful load is not of major importance to me as aside from fuel (and other obvious weight factors), I will generally only be flying with a suitcase of clothing.

Now to aircraft criteria. I don`t care about high wing or low wing. I am 90% decided on a 4 seater plane as I think I will get more bang for my buck than buying a 6 seater for the once in a blue moon it might be nice to have a bit of extra space. As I am flying often, speed is one of the biggest criteria for me (right after safety and airworthiness) followed by avionics as such, I am looking at aircraft with 200HP as a minimum (in all honesty, the only one that is not exactly 200hp on my list is the Commanche 250 (yes, I know I just said I wanted a 4 seater, but I have heard many positive things about them). IFR capable is a must have for me. I would like to have decent avionics, but don't need all top of the line. However, again, it has to be something I can use for IFR (so not the no longer supported Garmin 430 and 530 etc.) I don`t really care about fixed gear vs retractable with the exception that I believe most 200hp aircraft are retractable due to better aerodynamics. However, from an experience or insurance standpoint, it doesn't make a difference to me. Generally I am looking for something with a burn rate of 11-14gph but I also have some flexibility there as necessary. Generally I have been looking at aircraft that have 5000hrs TT or less and around 1000hrs SMOH or less, again there is some flexibility with this as well, especially based upon avionics.

Ideally I would like to spend under $120k for the aircraft, but I do have some flexibility in that number as necessary. I have no issues with insurance or hanger space or that kind of thing. As mentioned, a good friend of mine runs my local FBO, so many of the reoccurring costs aspects are handled.

Now this is the slightly different aspect for me. I am buying this aircraft knowing that I will only be owning it for 3-5 years with the most likely scenario being around 3 years but building in some "just in case" time into that. The reason for this is that business has been expanding rapidly and I expect to buy a faster 6 seater plane at that time as I will have more people traveling with me on a regular basis at that point as well as need to travel to more locations faster and more likely than not, further. That is the primary reason for me setting my budget where it is, I dont need nor plan to buy a $250k + aircraft to then have to try and sell it in a few years in a much softer market than our current market conditions. This is also the reason I am looking for an aircraft with decent avionics already, it doesnt make sense for me to make the investment in them to sell it shortly after. I need something that fits my mission criteria well for now, knowing those criteria will be changing in a few years and my aircraft along with it.

I had mostly narrowed down my search list to the Piper Arrow II or III. The Piper Archer was going to be my backup. I like the Cirrus SR20, but generally they are not in the price range I am looking at that meet my criteria. Similar with a Cessna 182, probably outside of my price range. However, my CFI as well as A&P Mechanic brought up the idea of the Cherokee 250 as an option. My reading on this forum brought me to think about including the Mooney M20 (they appear to have a cult following!).

So I figured instead of simply lurking and reading posts, I would sign up and ask for input and advice from much more experienced people than myself. Based upon my mission, goals, and timeframe to keep the aircraft, what would you recommend? As mentioned, ideally $120k or less, 200hp minimum, decent avionics, IFR capable, with decent hours knowing I am going to upgrade in a few years.

I appreciate the insight and please ask any questions as necessary!
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Get a Piper Arrow.
Fits the mission. It can haul you, your wife, 2 small kids.
Burns less than your target gph and fits the budget.
It can get you 400nm in a reasonable amount of time since you're cruising 135 TAS. Headwinds can suck, but that's life.
It's a more liquid airplane too, in the sense that there's a pretty big resale market for it for when you go back to upgrade. Plus, if you know you're going to be upgrading to a 6+ seater for business later, might as well get your complex hours now in a cheaper make/model.
Only caveat: don't recall a geography mentioned.. If you're flying up in the mountains or something you might want something that has a turbo.

Mooneys are faster but you'll give up useful load. Not a big deal if you're planning already to fly 90% solo. You'll shave some time off your trip if you go that route. Many can be had for a fair price around your range.

Whether or not it's IFR capable and deciding the avionics loadout is going to be a function of the specific aircraft tail# you're looking at. There's no 1 model that's going to be guaranteed to have new/fancy avionics (unless you're buying a newly manufactured plane, which is going to be far outside your price range anywho!).
You'll find Arrows with brand new glass panels and autopilots and those with ancient avionics installed from back when the earth was still cooling.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
Lots of these posts these days. I'll repeat what I write on every one of these posts: Piper Comanche 250 (or 260, but might not be possible at sub $120,000).
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ArrowFlyer86 said:
I was thinking the same thing :)... Almost seems like too many of these.
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Gentlemen,

I apologize for your aparent disdain however I did not see any particular post that appropriately reflected my particular situation. I saw several, what is my best bang for buck posts, but None that specifically outlined a similar mission parameter to mine as well as more specifically, the fact that it is a short-term investment for only several years.

If there are particular posts that you have already provided feedback on that I can learn various aspects from, I would appreciate you pointing me in that direction. As mentioned in my initial comments, I am new and fresh in this aspect and am looking to learn. I apologize in the event my question seems Neanderthal to you and would happily welcome your guidance in the right direction for research.

From what I can tell, most people are asking what plane they should buy with their relatively limited budget. Not what plane they should buy for a short period of time knowing they will upgrade in a near future. Thank you for your assistance.
 
Cirrus is way out of your price range.

Yes to the Arrow (I’m biased - I have an Arrow)
Or the Mooney

Don’t do a 6 seater or something faster yet… get your experience in. There’s about one crash everyday because someone got in over their head. Respect the industry.
 
Most of the usual suspects will work. Arrow, Archer, 182, Mooney.

4 years ago, your budget could have bought a very nice example of any of those. Now you would be limited to tired and poorly equipped aircraft.

Business travel means IFR, and low budget IFR sucks. Money buys safety. Redundancy, glass panels, GPS nav, modern autopilot.

Bump your budget up 25-50k and get a nice, well equipped, low time aircraft. You'll get it back on resale, and you'll spend less time in maintenance and more time growing your biz.
 
Sayajin said:
Gentlemen,

I apologize for your aparent disdain however I did not see any particular post that appropriately reflected my particular situation. I saw several, what is my best bang for buck posts, but None that specifically outlined a similar mission parameter to mine as well as more specifically, the fact that it is a short-term investment for only several years.

If there are particular posts that you have already provided feedback on that I can learn various aspects from, I would appreciate you pointing me in that direction. As mentioned in my initial comments, I am new and fresh in this aspect and am looking to learn. I apologize in the event my question seems Neanderthal to you and would happily welcome your guidance in the right direction for research.

From what I can tell, most people are asking what plane they should buy with their relatively limited budget. Not what plane they should buy for a short period of time knowing they will upgrade in a near future. Thank you for your assistance.
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LOL, no disdain, just an observation that there were lots of "my situation is this, what plane is best for me" type of questions lately. I don't mind them. I encourage them. Means more people getting into GA. Curiously enough, my recommendation on the last few (including yours) is Comanche. I'm biased though, but so is probably anyone who suggests Mooney, Arrow, or whatever else they'll suggest.
 
Sayajin said:
Gentlemen,

I apologize for your aparent disdain however I did not see any particular post that appropriately reflected my particular situation. I saw several, what is my best bang for buck posts, but None that specifically outlined a similar mission parameter to mine as well as more specifically, the fact that it is a short-term investment for only several years.

If there are particular posts that you have already provided feedback on that I can learn various aspects from, I would appreciate you pointing me in that direction. As mentioned in my initial comments, I am new and fresh in this aspect and am looking to learn. I apologize in the event my question seems Neanderthal to you and would happily welcome your guidance in the right direction for research.

From what I can tell, most people are asking what plane they should buy with their relatively limited budget. Not what plane they should buy for a short period of time knowing they will upgrade in a near future. Thank you for your assistance.
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It's not disdain. If it was I wouldn't have started off by trying to earnestly answer your question!

But there's been about 4 similar posts in the last several days, all being slightly similar. So it feels like groundhogs day sometimes.

That said, good luck in your search for the right bird.
 
Sayajin said:
...From what I can tell, most people are asking what plane they should buy with their relatively limited budget....
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And you think $120,000 is not a relatively limited budget???

Where you live, if you want this plane for business travel to be viable for more than 7 months of the year, you need FIKI (flight into known ice) capability. You should double your budget (or more).

If I had your requirements, I'd buy a Rockwell 114 (typically they run about $150k), have TKS installed (I think it runs about $50k for the FIKI installation)...that would put you at about $200k for a very capable aircraft, that could even fly on more than 50% of winter days. BUT, you will not get return on the $50k investment, just saying.
 
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StraightnLevel said:
As one of the similar posters, I can maybe shed some light on it.

Business in general has been really good the last few years, and many of us are reaching the point that travel is a significant constraint on spending more time on the business.

It's not hard to draw a line from travel time as a constraint to owning a plane, and the intersection with people who wanted to learn to fly anyway is not small. Add in the fact that the starting point is successful business ops which leave the time-constrained people with extra cash, and you have a trend.

Getting more money is always possible. Getting more time is not.
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All true, the challenge is that unless you are $$ range to be in a jet or turboprop, it's hard to meet the dispatch rate to actually make it feasible. We get several posters a year that want to fly long legs on weekly basis with a $100 to $200k budget. What they miss (as did I when I was starting) is that while you can find a plane that can make the legs in the time you target, you have a hard time finding ones that can do that 52 weeks a year. Even a FIKI piston plane is going to have icing conditions it can't deal with or summer convective activity that makes it impossible or dangerous to make the flight.

Not to say it can't be done, but you have to be realistic about the times it won't work and have viable alternative mode of transportation. One other minor thing, on the airlines, you can work to some degree. Burn through emails, do your expense stuff etc. Can't do that in your own plane if you are the pilot.

Keep asking, and we'll keep answering. Just don't be surprised if you get a tone of "here we go again". At least no one has asked about flying to Bermuda or Hawaii in a single engine piston in a couple years.
 
StraightnLevel said:
You say that you are intending to get PPL with higher ratings, but then talk about flying for business with other people…

…As I understand it (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you can fly by yourself for business purposes, but you cannot take someone else with you when flying for business purposes without a commercial cert; it would effectively define you as flying for the business that you are being paid by, which is prohibited under PPL.
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The OP is referring to flying for business related to the company he owns and operates. A commercial certificate is not required to fly others (his employees or customers or vendors) in his business while traveling for business purposes. If he were charging or receiving compensation for his pilot services or for passenger’s travel that is unrelated to his travel needs, that would fall into another category.
 
You’re asking a new question that is best answered by someone with tax experience in aviation. This question has been addressed by the various aviation organizations including the NBAA. They have articles and pamphlets and the like to describe how it works. The answer and application are not straightforward. Is it authorized when the pilot is only PVT? Not sure that matters. I will not try to answer as I would have to review the regs and IRS interpretations again. Others on here know the answer, but I would run your specific example by a tax specialist to confirm.
 
StraightnLevel said:
All true and clear. That said, even if I can only fly the trip 5 or 6 times a year, it's worth it.

Here's the rub: Commercial flight schedules are terrible. Nearly everywhere I go, I have to make a stop at a hub somewhere, and that adds anywhere from 1-3 hours (sometimes more).

One of my regular destinations is MKE. The last flight out on Sunday varies seasonally, but most of the year it's about 4:00, which means getting to the airport by 3:00, which in turn means leaving my farm by 2:00. Even with that schedule I end up getting to Houston (IAH) at 11PM, which means getting to my condo at about 12:30. If I take the first flight out Monday morning, I don't get to my office until 1:30 in the afternoon, which is a no-go. The inbound flight Friday night or Saturday morning is similar. ORD adds 2 hours in each direction, so it's a non-starter.

The GA alternative is taking off from KETB, 5 minutes from my farm, and arriving at KEFD, 15 minutes from my condo. With a 5 hour flight time, I have cut my total travel time in half; even with a quick stop along the way, its a big time savings. Those are hours that I get to spend with my wife, kids, and granddaughter, as opposed to running around between gates in ATL/DTW/MSP. How much effort and $$$ is that family time worth?

Now, add to that the fact that it gives me a family related "excuse" to pursue something that I've wanted to do most of my life (flying), and it's a bit of a no-brainer. Since it's travel between businesses, the cost is also a business expense, which effectively rebates about 40 cents for every dollar I spend.

[OP: Sorry for hijacking the thread...]
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What you're not calculating are the days you get stuck away from home...with GA, its gonna happen. As long as that's not a big deal, fine. But, in effect, it makes the "time savings" a wash vs commercial when its all said and done.
 
Using a piston single without FIKI for Business is possible if you are super flexible and you get joy out of flying so you’re not too fixated on “time savings”. I use my Comanche for business. Heck, prior to my Comanche I used my Cherokee for business. When I was living in the Canadian prairies (similar geographical feature to Kansas) I noticed that my time savings for trips under 200 miles weren’t actually time savings. Up to 300 miles were a wash and things started to make it worth above that.

Here is why:

- Drive to the Airport. I was living 45 minutes from it. That’s time to add especially if the airport is in the opposite direction of where you’re going.

- Flight planning. If you drive, you hop in the car, set gps and go. If you fly, you spend at least half an hour (sometimes more) flight and weather planning the night before.

- Preflight inspection. Again, by car, you hop in and go. By plane, you have to pull it out of the hangar, possibly fuel it up, then do a full blown preflight inspection, startup procedures, wait for clearances if you’re at a busy airport, etc. That adds 30+ minutes.

- Destination infrastructure. Sometimes it’s real nice with FBOs that bring the rental car right to the ramp, other times there aren’t even rental cars and you’ll have to get creative on how to reach your final destination. At times, when i had to go to smaller towns with no infrastructure, I flew into the nearest larger airport where I could get a rental car and drove the rest of the way.

One other consideration is delays. If I have to be somewhere on a specific date and time, I’m prepared to leave days earlier. Don’t always have to but I’m prepared to do so. My work is flexible as in, I can do 90% of my job anywhere as long as I have my laptop and internet so being stuck at a nice hotel for a day or two is fine by me. Same for the return, I’m always prepared to wait out WX or MX if needed. Those things can nix your time savings even on longer trips.

With all of this being said, I still prefer flying my plane over driving or the airlines. Flying is less stressful over driving and flying commercial, just too many people with viruses and bacteria on them lol. Plus, when things do go as planned, it does save time. Yesterday I cut a 12 hour drive into a 3 hour flight (adding pre-flight and planning 5 hours) but on the flip side, I’m at my destination two days early because weather looks Bad over the next two days. Considering the destination is New York, I don’t mind lol.
 
I love that you want to do this, and I think that you should go for it. But as a very wise instructor told me after I got my instrument and was telling him of my great plans, he said: "Baby steps, Paul, baby steps." Your PPL is a beginning (so you haven't really started yet), not an end to your learning, and like me, even a few years after my instrument, there is a lot to learn, a lot of situations to experience, and a lot of good decisions that need to be made. The most dangerous aspect of how you want to use an airplane is the risk of having to be somewhere when you shouldn't fly. If you succumb to this, you can and very likely will have a tragic outcome.

Also I think your budget is too low for what you want to do. FIKI or at least an inadvertent ice system is something you probably should have. An older Cirrus, Mooney or Bo would be a good fit for you I think, but you are looking at at least double to triple your proposed initial outlay. My opinion.
 
What are you training in?

What does your CPA say about your current and future aviation plans?
 
As others have said, Arrow, Mooney and C182 are all good choices. If you are 'typical American' size, you may find the 182 a better fit. The Arrow is probably 10 kts faster and the Mooney more like 15. I know speed is your priority, but 10-15 kts won't change your life.

I'd get a flight in each type and let that make your decision.

C.
 
Having a plane for business travel means one more option. Doesn't mean you have to pick that option every time. If weather is within your personal and aircraft capabilities, take the plane. If the weather is more than you can handle, take an airline or drive. Decision criteria can be seasonal. In the summer, fly in the morning. In the winter, fly VFR or light IFR conditions, and accept that you will sometimes be delayed or stuck.

IMO ridiculous to tell someone working on their PPL that they must have a $250K airplane with FIKI. GA was built on small businessmen hopping around the midwest and plains in Cessnas and Pipers.

Get your license, get a reasonable entry level plane like an Archer/Arrow, 182, or Mooney, and start building GA travel experience. Over a few years of seasoning, you will better understand the capabilities you need to maximize utility for your mission, and you can upgrade if needed.
 
Lots of good advice given.
Another very serious point to consider, beyond the nuts and bolts of which airplane, etc., is, how "busy" is your business? By that I mean, you really need to assess whether you would be in a good mental state to safely plan and execute your flights, say, at the end of a stressful business day, late evening, after dark, weather moving in, etc. You've mentioned 2 or 3 400 mile trips a week, that starts to look a lot like a full-time corporate flying job. Can it be done with an owner/businessman flown plane? Certainly, and that scenario happens dozens, if not hundreds of times a week all across the country. But, be honest with yourself, and make sound decisions from there.
By all means, finish your PPL, and go for instrument rating. Maybe while doing that, hire your CFI, or another pro pilot, to go along on a few actual business day flights, just to get a feel for how it will all really work.
 
While you are training, take every opportunity to network and fly every plane you can, talk to the owners, talk to the mechanics. You can crunch the numbers and everything will be perfect on paper but you may find that you don't like the comfort or ergonomics for frequent long flights in a particular make and model.
I would join one or more clubs if I were you. As much flying as you plan to do, no way having access to only one plane is going to cut it. Don't underestimate how much time your plane will live in a mechanic's shop or in your hangar/tiedown down for a squawk.
 
I completely understand. You want the best bang for the buck. But before you're done, you'll likely have a big compromise somewhere. A compromise on speed, avionics, the useful load, purchase price, etc, etc. The odds are that your first annual inspection will exceed what you planned. Plan accordingly. Don't over think this. I've never found the perfect plane.
 
asicer said:
For most 182 versus most Arrows, I'd have to disagree. Yes, there are a few corner cases where an Arrow is faster than a 182, but I wouldn't consider that the norm.
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He’s probably thinking of the turbo version.
 
I just buy whatever six seat I was interested in if that’s your ultimate goal. Five years from now you will have fixed everything the way that you want or added things that you like. And that would be the most proficient airplane for you to fly that many people in. Cherokee 6 I think? I’ve seen several that look really great.

Although if I were you, I would just build a sling high wing with an edge 917 and fly four comfortably all the time for the rest of my days. That’s outside your budget of course. And does nothing for your mission. You say you will have in five years. Are you really sure in five years you’ll be regularly flying six people?

 
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Don't forget about hangar(s). You will most likely want one at your home base (rent or buy). Might be nice to at least have a rental at the most common destination since you might make it there but then wx prevents departure and its a nasty thunderstorm (hail / high winds). Nice thing about a rental at the destination is you could leave a another car there.

Not sure why it has to be 200HP - example the later model Cardinals have a 180HP and a CSP and cruise pretty quick.

Since you are open to retract perhaps consider retract 177 and retract 182.

While you are doing your PPL and since it is winter.Think about your upcoming business trips that you will be driving or flying commercial. Then run the trip through the GA naviputer (foreflight or GP) and see if you would have launched on time. See if the return would have worked. A really cheap way to learn what dispatch would be sans FIKI. And you'll get great[er] at aviation wx while doing your PPL. You could even run one or two trip possibilities by your CFI. See if they would have flown it.
 
I do this. Not every week, but 200 plus hours of flying a year

I did it in a 180hp Cherokee for three years then upgraded to a Columbia 400

If you are going from Kansas to Houston, you need a faster (more expensive) plane
 
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