Finger (123.4) and Fingers (123.45)

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weirdjim

weirdjim

Ejection Handle Pulled
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weirdjim
Just because we have a 760 channel radio in the airplane does NOT mean that we are licensed/legal to use all of them. Try chatting on 121.5 some day and see how long THAT lasts. Or go to San Diego and pass the time of day on 118.3 and see what kind of trouble that gets you into.

There are half a dozen restricted frequencies that manufacturers of aircraft and major aircraft components are assigned as "test" frequencies. These frequencies are NOT assigned to any other service (including air-to-air and air-to-ground), and they are a crystal ***** to apply for.

In general, it takes about a year to get approved, and you have to go through a FCC frequency coordinator that plots your geographic location and figures out what other manufacturers you may potentially interfere with when you do your testing.

You are extremely limited in power and you have to give all other licensed stations within a few hundred mile radius notice well in advance when and where you will be doing your testing. You do NOT have a choice as to what frequencies you are assigned and you take what you are assigned.

Now, I've gone through all the hoops, paid a fair chunk of "administrative fees", gone through the restrictions and I'm all set for testing. I'm assigned on my license 123.4 and 123.45. That wasn't my choice, but my assignment.

We've got engineer time, pilot time, aircraft time, and a few other times we are paying for on the line. We get three-quarters of the way into the test and Billy Bob and Old Joe come on the frequency chattering about the waitress' knobs over at Mabel's Airport Cafe.

Let me be blunt. With the implementation of ADSB, I can pretty well get ATC to give me your N-Number and I can simply turn it over to both the FAA and the FCC for enforcement. Just for information, every time you punch the transmit button is a separate offense and the fine is $10k and a year in the slammer for each punch.

I'm a pilot. I've been one since 1963. I'm a flight instructor, commercial pilot, A&P/IA, 182A driver, and I have absolutely no interest in raising he!! with my colleagues. But I am also an airplane parts manufacturer that loses hundreds of dollars every time you destroy one of my tests.

So I'm giving fair warning. At some point in time I'm going to have to turn you in for prosecution. I do not CHOOSE to do this, but I also do not choose to let you violate the FAA/FCC Regulations. I wouldn't let my student do it and I won't let you do it.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jim
 
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weirdjim said:
assigned on my license 123.4 and 123.45.
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Of all the luck. I used to use those same freqs when T/S-ing TX issues. Even though I was on the ground and miles away from your local, my apologies.....;)
 
Right on, Jim!! Per AOPA: Legally, for air-to-air communications between private, fixed-wing aircraft, there is just one authorized frequency: 122.75 MHz. For general aviation helicopters: 123.025 MHz. Gliders and hot air balloons share 123.3 and 123.5 MHz.
 
Bell206 said:
Of all the luck. I used to use those same freqs when T/S-ing TX issues. Even though I was on the ground and miles away from your local, my apologies.....;)
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Bell, not a problem. It is just the nasty comments I get when I tell people that they have blown a thousand dollar test. No apologies necessary; this is a teaching moment, not a kvetching moment. 99.99% of pilots think that since their radios have 760 channels that they are authorized to use any or all of them.

Then we have @$$#ole$ like Kritch that could give a rat's #iney about the rules. They will do as they damned well please. There are remedies for that, not all of them pleasant.

Thanks, and the best to you and yours.

Jim
 
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weirdjim said:
Now, I've gone through all the hoops, paid a fair chunk of "administrative fees", gone through the restrictions and I'm all set for testing. I'm assigned on my license 123.4 and 123.45. That wasn't my choice, but my assignment.
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Not saying you’re wrong to report or excusing others, but just as a practical matter, given the historical popularity of fingers as a chat frequency, I do wonder if it might be more cost effective in terms of use of your time to petition the FAA for a different frequency assignment(s) ?
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Not saying you’re wrong to report or excusing others, but just as a practical matter, given the historical popularity of fingers as a chat frequency, I do wonder if it might be more cost effective in terms of use of your time to petition the FAA for a different frequency assignment(s) ?
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123.45 is the standard flight test frequency for most (all?) non government flight testing. So I suspect he'd have a hard time making that happen.
 
Try chatting on 121.5 some day and see how long THAT lasts.
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The problem with doing that is every time you transmit it's followed by ten guys yelling "En Garde."

Seriously, I heard a guy calling ahead for catering on 121.5 once.
 
My father used to have a 6-digit warranty on the auto parts the salvage yard sell.....

He would wave at them with all five digits of one hand while displaying the single middle digit of the other.
 
How does a non test aircraft talking on fingers blow a thousand dollar test?
 
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Why do you assume that those talking are airborne?
 
How do these tests work?
It's not something you could program in and set a 3am timer for, I guess?
 
Jim, for years 123.45 was a common frequency that guys used to communicate with each other when flying to Sun N Fun or Airventure. 122.75 was always a zoo.

I prefer 7.030 CW.
 
weirdjim said:
Then we have @$$#ole$ like Kritch that could give a rat's #iney about the rules. They will do as they damned well please. There are remedies for that, not all of them pleasant.
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Really? Wrong. Where did I ver say or imply that? Go ahead big shot.... show me.
 
jrcox19 said:
123.45 is the standard flight test frequency for most (all?) non government flight testing. So I suspect he'd have a hard time making that happen.
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In the US 123.45 is specifically assigned to flight test stations, not just random flight test activity. If you don't know if you qualify as a flight test station, the answer is almost certainly, "You don't."

Nauga,
who does, but wasn't assigned fingers
 
I need more popcorn for when Jim tries to get the modern FCC even remotely interested in a complaint about anything. :)

Living way in the past there, Jim. All the RF engineers at FCC that know anything aren’t working the field desk and those are long retired.

The kids on the field assignments are nice and say all the right words but really are mostly clueless.

I’ll be mighty impressed if you find anyone who cares.
 
Sadly, unless the FCC gets more funding or a business makes a big enough stink not much will come of it. Not long ago someone in the New York area thought it was fun broadcasting on the private news media back channel. It took quite an effort on the part of the news station to get the FCC to do anything

@weirdjim 73
 
nauga said:
By stepping on me when I'm trying to make a radio call required for successful completion of the test.

Nauga,
jammed
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Unless it was a continuous intrusion, I don’t see how that can ruin an entire test.

Velocity 173,
overcoming MIJI
 
Velocity173 said:
Unless it was a continuous intrusion, I don’t see how that can ruin an entire test.

Velocity 173,
overcoming MIJI
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It usually is continuous. I have an aviation scanner, and I'll pick up billy-joe-jim-bob talking to cleatus in their J3's for as long as it takes for them to fly by at 80 knots. It can easily be 15, 20 minutes of constant inane chatter.

For awhile a German couple was using it as walkie-talkies on the ground (in German). That was really annoying, but they must have been somewhere nearby.
 
I would like to see 123.45 specifically called out in the AIM as prohibited. Few pilots read the FCC regulations on frequency use. The FAA found room in the AIM to prohibit "Any traffic in the area...." calls, so they can be sensitive to these issues.

Bob Gardner
 
Velocity173 said:
Unless it was a continuous intrusion, I don’t see how that can ruin an entire test.
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Some generalities: I may have a limited amount of gas, energy, or expendables and a test that requires correlation of timing between a cockpit event and a camera on the ground. A 'mark' call on freq that gets stepped on, or worse, heterodyned, can blow that test. Ever heard or heard *of* testing where a timely 'knock-it-off' call was made for safety? If not, we can talk offline and then you will have. Missing a call like that can ruin someone's day. We're driven to these freqs by the FAA and FCC, so we can't just 'go finger' when our assigned test freq is clobbered. When they're not available or not usable it costs us, either in actual money or added risk.

Nauga,
at one end or the other
 
Not even through with my first cup of coffee and I've already been threatened. I don't air to air on fingers but I also would like to know how someone who does can blow a test.
 
nauga said:
Some generalities: I may have a limited amount of gas, energy, or expendables and a test that requires correlation of timing between a cockpit event and a camera on the ground. A 'mark' call on freq that gets stepped on, or worse, heterodyned, can blow that test. Ever heard or heard *of* testing where a timely 'knock-it-off' call was made for safety? If not, we can talk offline and then you will have. Missing a call like that can ruin someone's day. We're driven to these freqs by the FAA and FCC, so we can't just 'go finger' when our assigned test freq is clobbered. When they're not available or not usable it costs us, either in actual money or added risk.

Nauga,
at one end or the other
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And the odds of the things you’re referencing (military testing) applying to this situation is slim. Also, I’ve listened on fingers several times and it ain’t that busy. Even 122.75 allows for plenty of gaps to transmit.

Not advocating the unauthorized use of fingers but I think we’re making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here.
 
What's the history of "fingers"? Everyone seems to know it, and if you tune it in on a nice day, you'll usually hear a conversation. One of my flight instructors even told me to use it one day; he was going with another student and I was solo. I actually learned here that was incorrect.

The problem is 123.45 is very easy to remember, and 122.75 isn't. I always have to look it up. If it was a written test question maybe it would get some traction. At this point it seems like it'd be easier to release fingers for air to air and reserve another frequency for testing. Maybe something like 122.75 would work...
 
Velocity173 said:
And the odds of the things you’re referencing (military testing) applying to this situation is slim.
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The situations I posed were related to civilian flight tests I've been involved in. In military flight tests where comms were critical we typically were assigned a discrete UHF freq which was honored, so it was not an issue. The FCC and FAA have designated our 'discrete' VHF freq, it's the lack of discipline on that that I'm addressing. We don't currently use either of the common ones so we have few (but not zero) issues with it, but I can see the problem for those who do draw finger/s from the pool.

Nauga,
who doesn't think you're not there when he closes his eyes
 
nauga said:
The situations I posed were related to civilian flight tests I've been involved in. In military flight tests where comms were critical we typically were assigned a discrete UHF freq which was honored, so it was not an issue. The FCC and FAA have designated our 'discrete' VHF freq, it's the lack of discipline on that that I'm addressing. We don't currently use either of the common ones so we have few (but not zero) issues with it, but I can see the problem for those who do draw finger/s from the pool.

Nauga,
who doesn't think you're not there when he closes his eyes
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Well we’ve been here before and I’ve yet to hear a logical explanation on how he loses an entire testing data over an interruption. What specifically happens during the interruption that negates the whole test???

Also sounds like he’s got a bunch of “cowboys” flying CJs and RVs out there. Another reason to get out of Cali. :)

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/123-4-and-123-45-finger-fingers.111961/
 
Velocity173 said:
Well we’ve been here before and I’ve yet to hear a logical explanation on how he loses an entire testing data over an interruption. What specifically happens during the interruption that negates the whole test???
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I've already given you examples of how it can negate the results (missed timing) or make it more hazardous (missed call). Do you need justification for each use? We're going to need more time and an NDA.

Nauga,
testy
 
Threatening to call the FCC? Just listen to the ham bands there are guys that have been operating without licenses and spouting trash for 30 years and they are still on the air.

Just curious how many tests you have ACTUALLY had ruined by guys chatting on finger or fingers? How much ACTUAL money have you lost? Is this a regular thing or is this just a pet peeve that causes annoyance? Serious question.

Never used 123.45 now I kinda want to. :)
 
Velocity173 said:
And the odds of the things you’re referencing (military testing) applying to this situation is slim. Also, I’ve listened on fingers several times and it ain’t that busy. Even 122.75 allows for plenty of gaps to transmit.

Not advocating the unauthorized use of fingers but I think we’re making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here.
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"mountain out of a molehill here" FCC regulations must be adhered to, just like FAA regulations. Pilots do not get to pick and choose which regulations they are subject to. The "fingers" frequencies are assigned for test purposes and other authorized uses. They are not authorized for aeronautical stations. I wholeheartedly support weirdjim in his efforts to identify and report violators.

Bob Gardner
 
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