Finger (123.4) and Fingers (123.45)

[Velocity173]

It’s obvious that the past 40 + years isn’t working using fingers for flight test in his area. I don’t know, maybe apply for another frequency (123.375) like Scaled Composites has used for flight test purposes.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Please, make your recommendations as you see fit.

Gosh, I thought you were out of here. Sorry to see such a rude person returning to the discussion.

 

[PaulS]

In general, you know, I try to do that and provide people with some little reminders that there is no reason to be rude. But it sort of appears this may be a personality trait because it keeps coming back. And was sort of present in the thread from a few years back as well.

Yeah, we all have our moments, especially me, lol.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I think this may be a common characteristic amongst people who own businesses and are relatively isolated. I used to have a client when I did consulting who would just yell and scream about any little thing that was wrong. He was the owner of a small company and used to getting his way. At first I found it upsetting, but then I realized he was paying me rather good money to sit and listen to these rants, and then more good money afterward to actually try and fix what he was complaining about. So I just watched the meter ring up in my mind. That doesn't happen here so I am a bit more picky about politeness.

 

[nauga]

I don’t know, maybe apply for another frequency (123.375) like Scaled Composites has used for flight test purposes.

Nauga,
who has decided to use your N-number. You should apply for a new one.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Nauga,
who has decided to use your N-number. You should apply for a new one.

You know, that might be the practical thing to do if all sorts of people were constantly stealing your N number for some reason and others had historically done so and complaining and ranting about it over 40 years hadn't helped you.

But hey, some people just want to rant!

 

[denverpilot]

There ARE other flight test frequencies.

Realistic solution: Just ask FCC to assign a different one. There’s too many yahoos on the one you assigned to me.

Let them figure it out.

 

[Bell206]

perhaps you can enlighten me on how they involve a mis-perception of the governmental rules.

Simple. You are requiring someone who has followed the FCC rule given to him to CHANGE the way he does something because others choose NOT to follow the FCC rules given to them. For another example see post 85 for further clarification. But just to clarify, if someone were to move into your house and refused to leave your "practical" solution would be to give them your house and move to another house at your expense?

 

[jimhorner]

But hey, some people just want to rant!

I, for one, think @weirdjim has actually been too nice, particularly with those who seem to have anti-authority issues (Isn’t that one of those hazardous behaviours that we are warned about?)

Let’s summarize, shall we?

* Jim has a long standing avionics company which received approval from the FCC to use a pair of the few if not only frequencies reserved for air-to-air and air-to-ground testing purposes. It’s extremely rare (likely impossible) to just get any other frequency assigned.

* There’s not a lot of spare channels in this band. Since there are so few of these frequencies, and due to the long distances RF can travel, the FCC can’t just give any old frequency out. They have to plan to make sure that multiple people doing tests don’t step on each other.

* Receiving such approval requires a significant amount of time and red tape. It’s not a blanket, use it any time type of approval, but requires lots of details about when the frequency will be in use, where, etc.

* Running a test like this involves a significant amount of time and expense, and having someone else come up and start jabbering away can cause key, critical data to be lost requiring that the test need to be restarted which may not even be possible without additional red tape and expense.

I took Jim’s original post not to be a plea for wild, off-the-wall solution proposals by people who don’t have a _clue_ as to what they are talking about. It seemed to me more of an educational, post trying to point out that unthinking, ignorant, people who are incorrectly using these frequencies as their personal chat line are both breaking the rules and also causing financial hardship for people and companies who are required to follow those rules.

I say Jim is being too nice, because he posted this educational post instead of just going to the FCC and insisting they do their job and enforce the rules. It’s what I would have done. And as an example, the FCC does sometimes crack down on violators of this. Check out this article: https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1313440001.pdf

Thank goodness my RF testing is confined to a 10meter chamber, so I don’t have to worry about other people screwing my tests up.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Simple. You are requiring someone who has followed the FCC rule given to him to CHANGE the way he does something because others choose NOT to follow the FCC rules given to them. For another example see post 85 for further clarification. But just to clarify, if someone were to move into your house and refused to leave your "practical" solution would be to give them your house and move to another house at your expense?

I think that is a bit of a straw man fallacy. I never suggested that he should be required to change the way he does something to accommodate others who don't follow the rules. Why keep focusing on that straw man?

Also, can you please clarify how my particular suggestions were misperceiving the FAA or FCC rules that apply. I just don't see that and you really don't address that in your response after having made that assertion.

I think your hypothetical is so unrelated to the present example as to be fairly meaningless in this context. My house is on property that I acquired from the prior owner and did a title search on to make sure the title was good. I am home much of every day and using it every day. If any squatters are attempting to use it, I will notice and ask them to leave, and if that fails, I will have the police eject them fairly quickly.

Jim's assignment was per the rules by the FCC but was to a frequency which has long been used by others for chatting. Jim is perhaps using his assignment how often -- every few months? Does he notice and report at other times when people are chatting on fingers?

All of these factors will impact how practical it is to try a hard enforcement approach. In the case of your house, that works pretty well. In the case of an infrequent use of an otherwise commonly used chat frequency, likely not.

But look, none of that is justification for people to break the regulations. If you will read my posts, I was merely trying to suggest some practical ways to solve the problem. As were many others here.

But this does being to verge onto a topic closer to my heart politically. And this will be thread drift, and onto a somewhat political subject, but one that is still aviation related! In some sense, the problem here is created by a government bureaucracy doing the job of allocating the frequencies. Such bureaucracies are notoriously unresponsive to user or consumer demand. Perhaps if the frequency spectrum had been divvied up in a free market, one could buy a not oft used and low value frequency for not too much money for such testing and avoid these problems.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I, for one, think @weirdjim has actually been too nice, particularly with those who seem to have anti-authority issues (Isn’t that one of those hazardous behaviours that we are warned about?)

I disagree. There is no reason to be rude and make accusations about people you actually know nothing about on social media posts. It is a violation of the rules here as it amounts to personal attacks. Certainly not amongst the worst we see on PoA, but it is a set of personal attacks nonetheless.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I took Jim’s original post not to be a plea for wild, off-the-wall solution proposals by people who don’t have a _clue_ as to what they are talking about. It seemed to me more of an educational, post trying to point out that unthinking, ignorant, people who are incorrectly using these frequencies as their personal chat line are both breaking the rules and also causing financial hardship for people and companies who are required to follow those rules.

That may have been his original intent. But it had a sort of tone which many interpreted in an hostile manner and he certainly received some hostile responses. That tends to happen when you come across with threats.

I also doubt that complaining about it in this way on PoA is likely to have much positive effect. Polite local outreach might work better. Are there many people on PoA who are using fingers in his neighborhood. I don't think I have ever listened to that frequency, but will likely do so on my next flight just to see what is going on there in my neck of the woods.

Is there possibly a little bit of a Streisand effect here? The more he rants and raves, the more attention will be brought to the use of the fingers frequencies and the more likely it will become that the rule breakers will be using it during one of his tests? Perhaps too many mere chances there to really have such an effect, but is is an interesting possibility to consider.

 

[nauga]

It is a violation of the rules here as it amounts to personal attacks. Certainly not amongst the worst we see, but it is a set of personal attacks nonetheless.

Maybe you should just use another frequency.

Nauga,
and the matter of whose ox is gored

 

[jimhorner]

That may have been his original intent. But it had a sort of tone which many interpreted in an hostile manner and he certainly received some hostile responses. That tends to happen when you come across with threats.

I also doubt that complaining about it in this way on PoA is likely to have much positive effect. Polite local outreach might work better. Are there many people on PoA who are using fingers in his neighborhood. I don't think I have ever listened to that frequency, but will likely do so on my next flight just to see what is going on there in my neck of the woods.

Is there possibly a little bit of a Streisand effect here? The more he rants and raves, the more attention will be brought to the use of the fingers frequencies and the more likely it will become that the rule breakers will be using it during one of his tests? Perhaps too many mere chances there to really have such an effect, but is is an interesting possibility to consider.

As I said, some people don’t have a clue. Sigh...

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

As I said, some people don’t have a clue. Sigh...

Also a personal attack, sigh.

In my experience, people usually resort to this when they in some sense know they don't have a good response. Certainly no good response was contained therein, was there?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Maybe you should just use another frequency.

Nauga,
and the matter of whose ox is gored

I'm not the one violating the terms of service of the site. So I suppose the same sort of arguments about the rules would now justify my calling you names and being rude? Would you appreciate that?

 

[jimhorner]

Also a personal attack, sigh.

In my experience, people usually resort to this when they in some sense know they don't have a good response. Certainly no good response was contained therein, was there?

In my experience, people change the subject to “personal attacks” when they really have no kowledge of the facts of the topic even when it’s been explained to them by knowledgable persons multiple time and instead propose “solutions” which are not at all practical and with no attempt to even try to understand what has already been explained to them.

 

[nauga]

I'm not the one violating the terms of service of the site. So I suppose the same sort of arguments about the rules would now justify my calling you names and being rude? Would you appreciate that?

Flares and chaff. As a reminder to those who have lasted this far, the thread started with a complaint about unauthorized use of a flight test station freq. At least one good example was given of how this kind of interference can cause problems for the authorized user. With all the attention given to comm brevity and proper phraseology and general radio usage on POA I'm surprised people can rationalize this into acceptability, at least in their own minds. Live and learn.

Nauga,
who will see you on the airwaves

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Flares and chaff. As a reminder to those who have lasted this far, the thread started with a complaint about unauthorized use of a flight test station freq. At least one good example was given of how this kind of interference can cause problems for the authorized user. With all the attention given to comm brevity and proper phraseology and general radio usage on POA I'm surprised people can rationalize this into acceptability, at least in their own minds. Live and learn.

Nauga,
who will see you on the airwaves

Good points and politely stated without the need for personal attacks.

But if in response to my posts, it is a pure straw man, because I never attempted to rationalize people violating the regs.

Was there any post in this thread by anyone that attempted to do so? Maybe I missed it.

Trying to help someone find a practical solution to their problem is not the same as trying to excuse wrongdoers. Seriously seems like a clear distinction to me.

I do wonder though now if @weirdjim has ever actually tried to request a frequency change. He never stated that he did so and it was futile.

Not having done so and hostilely rejecting all suggestions of possible solutions would be consistent with someone just being annoyed and wanting to rant.

 

[IK04]

I prefer 7.030 CW.

Pixie frequency!

de K4IVE

 

[IK04]

Once upon a time, I was flying through the Las Vegas area with a formation of Military aircraft.

One of the pilots recommended switching to "five fingers." I had no idea what he was saying, never heard it before. When it was explained to me it meant tuning 123.450 in the VHF radio, I announced that that frequency was assigned by ARINC to a specific Air Force special project in that area. I could not tell them how I knew that.

After some standard jackassery on that frequency, a rather terse call was made to "clear the frequency" and somehow they knew who we were and where we were...

So no, you can't just tune any ol' frequency when you feel like it.

 

[bflynn]

Meow

 

[timwinters]

As I said, some people don’t have a clue. Sigh...

Had to hit the "show ignored content" button to see who you and Jim were arguing with. Yep, figures. I have a very select few ignored, but he is one...and for exactly the reason that you and Jim stated. His posts proved that to me long ago.

 

[Grum.Man]

I get the frustration but the reality is “fingers” has been stollen by the chatty pilots everywhere. You can’t change the world so maybe it’s time to change the test frequency.

 

[Salty]

I get the frustration but the reality is “fingers” has been stollen by the chatty pilots everywhere. You can’t change the world so maybe it’s time to change the test frequency.

Apparently even suggesting that around here is heresy.

 

[Grum.Man]

Apparently even suggesting that around here is heresy.

Well they can be neurotic cry babies or take steps to make their life easier. I get it rules are rules and people should follow them. When a rule is constantly and widely broken maybe it’s time to change the rule. These frequencies were set at a time when radio usage wasn’t as common as it is now.

 

[timwinters]

I get the frustration but the reality is “fingers” has been stollen by the chatty pilots everywhere. You can’t change the world so maybe it’s time to change the test frequency.

pilots need the police each other and quit making excuses for each other because that makes us all look like inconsiderate dumbazzes. I grew up in an area where fingers was used for flight testing by a military contractor and everybody knew to stay the phuk off of it. If you didn't, you were immediately told by said contractor to shut the phuk up.

There's no excuse for anyone using fingers so quit making excuses for them.

I am squarely in Jim's and Nauga's camp on this one.

 

[Salty]

pilots need the police each other and quit making excuses for each other because that makes us all look like inconsiderate dumbazzes. I grew up in an area where fingers was used for flight testing by a military contractor and everybody knew to stay the phuk off of it. If you didn't, you were immediately told by said contractor to shut the phuk up.

There's no excuse for anyone using fingers so quit making excuses for them.

I guess we should stop monitoring 121.5 and start monitoring 123.45 and yelling at people to stop using it. I'm sure that will make a huge impact.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Wow. Just...wow.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

More personal attacks. A very rude, belligerent and bad attitude. I'm sure that helps sales a lot. I will certainly be avoiding any purchases from RST Engineering and will make the same recommendation to others.

Please ignore me if you don't like what I have to politely say. At least I am polite -- unlike the OP here.

Please knock it off. You pose impractical solutions, and then get upset when someone in the field tells you, with no knowledge in the field, where to go? If you don't like his replies to you in a thread he started, you are free to ignore it.

You've also taken things out of context, claiming that someone was argumentum ab auctoritate when he merely mentioned they were a scientist in another thread, so this is like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Bill]

When a rule is constantly and widely broken maybe it’s time to change the rule. These frequencies were set at a time when radio usage wasn’t as common as it is now.

There are many many murders in Chicago, maybe murder should be made legal in Chicago? Just sayin...

 

[Doug Reid]

I guess we should stop monitoring 121.5 and start monitoring 123.45 and yelling at people to stop using it. I'm sure that will make a huge impact.

I predict you will become very popular

Like everything else right now...I think this is getting a bit out of control.

 

[murphey]

More personal attacks. A very rude, belligerent and bad attitude. I'm sure that helps sales a lot. I will certainly be avoiding any purchases from RST Engineering and will make the same recommendation to others.

Please ignore me if you don't like what I have to politely say. At least I am polite -- unlike the OP here.

Peter....you think you’re being polite while still not understanding Jim’s problem is not being polite. None of the suggestions offered here to “help Jim” here are practical nor reasonable. Jim has a critical problem that impacts his livelyhood. His problem is a reminder that regardless what people have been doing for years, decades even, it violates FCC rules. Would you have the same attitude if the local emergency frequencies were tied up with irrelevant conversation that also violated FCC rules....while in the midst of a disaster and your house is burning and you can’t get in contact with your family?

Jim’s aggravated...so what if you don’t like his attitude. Lots of us come here to vent. At least he has a better reason than most.

 

[murphey]

Those are good ideas and thinking outside the box might help him. But it appears that @weirdjim is too determined to blow his stack and be angry, because he is entitled to use those frequencies per regulation, to bother to consider alternatives.

Did anyone else notice the contortion of logic in that sentence?

 

[murphey]

Also a personal attack, sigh.

In my experience, people usually resort to this when they in some sense know they don't have a good response. Certainly no good response was contained therein, was there?

Really? What made that a personal attack?

 

[timwinters]

About a dozen years ago I flew a buddy to a small town in extreme NE AR for lunch...great BBQ place across the street. That area is well within the "Mississippi River Corridor" of heavy military aircraft flight testing using fingers that I mentioned earlier.

Well...I happened to pick the Saturday that the local pilots' group was having a fly in...

I switch to their CTAF about 10 miles out and hear the chatter, it was obvious there was a fly in. Then, I hear two guys on the ground playing wannabe ATC with the incoming traffic and DIRECTING them and CLEARING them to land, etc.

I refused to play their game, sequenced myself appropriately with the other two planes in the patten and gave my typical position reports. All the while looking for NORDO traffic...especially since in this area fly-ins tend to attract NORDOs.

Once I landed and cleared the runway I heard "N5057D, please contact ground control on fingers, 123.45."

"Unable" was my response. And I simply followed the plane that was in front of me to the makeshift parking.

Upon exiting my aircraft I was immediately confronted and screamed at for not following their protocol.

I simply told him that their fly-in didn't give them the authority to play ATC, explained why fingers was an unauthorized frequency and promptly showed him with one finger what I thought of his fingers.

There are freakin' idiots everywhere.

I must admit, with my lack of tolerance for idiots, combined with the lack of a filter between my brain in my mouth, it amazes me sometimes that my nose is still in the center of my face. No, It's not just on the Internet that I'm like this!

 

[PaulS]

About a dozen years ago I flew a buddy to a small town in extreme NE AR for lunch...great BBQ place across the street. That area is well within the "Mississippi River Corridor" of heavy military aircraft flight testing that I mentioned earlier.

Well...I happened to pick the Saturday that the local pilots' group was having a fly in...

I switch to their CTAF about 10 miles out and hear the chatter, it was obvious there was a fly in. Then, I hear two guys on the ground playing wannabe ATC with the incoming traffic and DIRECTING them and CLEARING them to land, etc.

I refused to play their game, sequenced myself appropriately with the other two planes in the patten and gave my typical position reports. All the while looking for NORDO traffic...especially since in this area fly-ins tend to attract NORDOs.

Once I landed and cleared the runway I heard "N5057D, please contact ground control on fingers, 123.45."

"Unable" was my response. And I simply followed the plane that was in front of me to the makeshift parking.

Upon exiting my aircraft I was immediately confronted and screamed at for not following their protocol.

I simply told him that their fly-in didn't give them the authority to play ATC, explained why fingers was an unauthorized frequency and promptly showed him with one finger what I thought of his fingers.

There are freakin' idiots everywhere.

I must admit, with my lack of tolerance for idiots, combined with my lack of filter between my brain in my mouth, it amazes me sometimes that my nose is still in the center of my face. No, It's not just on the Internet that I'm like this!

Pilots can be real dicks.

 

[flyingron]

You're ignorant of the situation. Making a new company won't help. There are no other frequencies to be handed out. Every single frequency is allocated (often more than once).
A senator or representative isn't going to change this. Believe me, I've been that route trying to get the FAA to obey federal law. A senator can get you VIP tickets to a NASA launch or perhaps push your paper that's stalled somewhere in the existing system, but they're not going to effect major change in the way TWO government agencies operate for a single constituent gripe.

I've been all over this with the government on several issues. I've filed several petitions for rulemaking (one even managed to be issued). I've submitted comments on dozens more. I even managed to get referenced by name in a couple of the preambles. You're inventing "nonsense" where the situation is simple: STOP ILLEGALLY TRANSMITTING ON 123.45. Tell your friends (which is what Jim tried to do before people started dumping on him).

 

[Salty]

There are freakin' idiots everywhere.

Indeed. One could argue it would have been wiser to use the frequency for safety sake, and explain to them their mistake once out of the aircraft. Or you could throw fingers and scream and yell at each other.....

 

[Velocity173]

Could it be the pilots are transmitting from remote areas???