Figuring out the wind?

PaulS said:
He was committed to no aileron use through out that.
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Or rudder from what I can see. He was only along for the ride. I remember when this happened it was discussed to no end. I can't remember if someone with knowledge said there was a medical issue, or if I'm just imagining that.
 
Lindberg said:
Slipping down final is elegant and fluid. You have the same inputs from final through the flare and touchdown, just a little more and a little less to keep you lined up.
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This is a fallacy. If the x-wind varies down final, which is common, slipping or not, you still must TURN the aircraft to maintain the runway track. Simply reducing or increasing the degree of slip input does NOT turn the airplane, it just causes the yaw displacement and bank angles to vary. This is easily demo'd by slipping down final with no wind. Put in a mild slip....add a more aggressive slip...and return. None of this turns the airplane from its track unless you deliberately make turning inputs. If you're aggressively slipping left wing down and need to make a runway track correction to the left, you don't slip harder, you reduce the rudder but not the aileron. If while doing the same slip you need to correct to the right, you must use the ailerons to cause a turn. Simply adding more rudder (if you have any left) is a very lethargic way to make the airplane turn.

Not sure how that's any more fluid or elegant than making very small coordinated turns down final to adjust your track while crabbing. Slipping all the way down final is quite the opposite of "elegant and fluid" IMO, but getting the plane down is all that matters. Slipping down final is a good way for students to gain extended practice with the slip inputs, but experienced pilots can graduate from that method and transition to the slip as they round out with ease. Passengers also don't find slipping down final "elegant and fluid". ;)
 
In a cross-wind situation, there's high instructional value in teaching a sideslip all the way down short final. This of course occurs after establishing the airplane on the final approach course, aligned with the runway centerline. It gives the learner the opportunity to work the ailerons, rudder and elevator such that he/she can see the effects of those inputs and correlate that with the ground track and heading of the aircraft.

Simply put, it's more "stick time" per approach in order to learn the technique.

Over time, there's value in transitioning to the method in which crab is used for most of the final approach, transitioning to a sideslip prior to touchdown. Just how close to touchdown this should be accomplished is a matter of preference and ability.
 
The bigger one's toolbox, the more situations you can deal with.

Now, I fly a little rag and tube taildragger without flaps and, at the home drome most of the pattern is out over water. So, given a choice I will stay high then a forward slip down to the runway and do the slip and kick thing somewhere around the "fence" (actually, shoreline when coming in from the south). But many passengers are uncomfortable with a slip, so there are reasons to crab and kick as well.

If you don't have at least one control against the stop, it's ain't really much of a slip.
 
Ryan F. said:
In a cross-wind situation, there's high instructional value in teaching a sideslip all the way down short final. This of course occurs after establishing the airplane on the final approach course, aligned with the runway centerline. It gives the learner the opportunity to work the ailerons, rudder and elevator such that he/she can see the effects of those inputs and correlate that with the ground track and heading of the aircraft.

Simply put, it's more "stick time" per approach in order to learn the technique.

Over time, there's value in transitioning to the method in which crab is used for most of the final approach, transitioning to a sideslip prior to touchdown. Just how close to touchdown this should be accomplished is a matter of preference and ability.
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This...

It is not until my students are able to consistently slip to a controlled crosswind landing IAW ACS standards, that I allow them to crab/transition. After they have learned what it takes to touchdown properly they are more likely to be able to "hit" it in the transition rather than trying to figure it out in the last few seconds.

Crabbing down final is important for the comfort of back seat passengers who cannot see out the front window, but we are talking about primary students. It will likely be quite some time before they are in the front-left seat of an airplane like that.
 
It seems like a recurrent theme in training or accidents is failure to initiate control inputs to counteract undesirable or unsafe changes in aircraft attitude or track. I've actually watched a fellow pilot freeze up solid while starting to experience an RLOC while I was a right seat passenger. Overcontrolling in an difficult situation and having and RLOC I can understand. Freezing up and hoping for an improving result is totally mystifying to me.
 
smv said:
This...

It is not until my students are able to consistently slip to a controlled crosswind landing IAW ACS standards, that I allow them to crab/transition. After they have learned what it takes to touchdown properly they are more likely to be able to "hit" it in the transition rather than trying to figure it out in the last few seconds.

Crabbing down final is important for the comfort of back seat passengers who cannot see out the front window, but we are talking about primary students. It will likely be quite some time before they are in the front-left seat of an airplane like that.
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One of my friends, whom I took flying many years ago, distinctly remembers coming down "sideways" to the runway on final approach.
 
RoscoeT said:
This is a fallacy. If the x-wind varies down final, which is common, slipping or not, you still must TURN the aircraft to maintain the runway track. Simply reducing or increasing the degree of slip input does NOT turn the airplane, it just causes the yaw displacement and bank angles to vary.
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There is no need to turn the airplane to correct for a crosswind because the crosswind is moving the plane laterally, not in a circle. Both crabbing and slipping counteract the crosswind by altering the flightpath, but the flightpath is still a straight line. When slipping, as the crosswind component varies, you will increase or decrease both bank angle and rudder in opposite directions simultaneously.
 
Lindberg said:
When slipping, as the crosswind component varies, you will increase or decrease both bank angle and rudder in opposite directions simultaneously.
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Wrong. If you are slipping with aggressive aileron and rudder deflections and simply reduce both inputs for a less aggressive slip (or vice versa), the airplane does NOT turn, wind or no wind. You have to do something else besides increase or decrease the degree of slip to get the plane to turn.
 
RoscoeT said:
Wrong. If you are slipping with aggressive aileron and rudder deflections and simply reduce both inputs for a less aggressive slip (or vice versa), the airplane does NOT turn, wind or no wind. You have to do something else besides increase or decrease the degree of slip to get the plane to turn.
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I think I'd stop making "wrong" statements until I understood what the person is saying. If you reduce BOTH inputs at exactly the right amount, you won't turn, but reduce one a lot and the other only a little, and you certainly will turn. In addition, I don't think the discussion was about changing both at the same time, but changing only one.
 
Salty said:
I think I'd stop making "wrong" statements until I understood what the person is saying.
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Problem was his claim that making shallow coordinated turns on final while crabbing to adjust for x-wind variation is somehow more awkward or complicated than making turns while slipping to adjust for the exact same thing. Either way, you have to use the ailerons to turn the airplane, which does not allow you to "have the same [slip] inputs" all the way down final.
 
Trogdor said:
Before you ask, yes I have asked my CFI but I want to get some more feedback here as well.

I have hit the dreaded and absolutely infuriating typical learning plateau everyone seems to hint out during flight training (I'm ~20 hours including a dual XC). My main problem is consistency on crosswind landings. Most of them are reasonable but some are poor or at least not passing. It mainly has to do with me pushing the aileron in the wrong direction as I try to "feel" the wind when I transition to the round-out and flare.

After a lot of postmortem analysis, I realize that this mainly has to do with my confusion on where the wind is coming from. Yesterday, for instance, I looked at the wind sock before I took off, applied the correct aileron on takeoff and subsequently didn't apply any on landing (I forgot) or applied it in the wrong direction because the wind was now coming from the opposite side.

Does everyone inspect the wind sock on final to figure this out? What if you can't see/read the wind sock for whatever reason?
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In all of my landings in all of my time, I could count on one hand the number of times I have ever looked at a windsock and then it was purely to determine my choice of a landing runway. Between the AWOS, ATIS, or now the relative wind on my G5 or on my FlyQ, there is usually some voice somewhere giving the current wind. As far as adjusting for the wind on final and while landing, I believe you are overanalyzing the whole process. While it is important to have a knowledge of which way the wind is coming from, you need to feel the plane and fly it the way that it wants to be flown to maintain a straight in approach to your landing point. From the attitude you need to hold the plane in order to maintain that straight in approach, you can transition into the proper airleron to apply after touchdown and on rollout. Some of the most important parts about flying are the instintive feels that you need to develop and this is one of the first ones you should work on.
 
RoscoeT said:
Problem was his claim that making shallow coordinated turns on final while crabbing to adjust for x-wind variation is somehow more awkward or complicated than making turns while slipping to adjust for the exact same thing. Either way, you have to use the ailerons to turn the airplane, which does not allow you to "have the same [slip] inputs" all the way down final.
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Something tells me there is some confusion between a forward slip and a side slip for landing. In a side slip, which is used for crosswind correction, you aren't turning the airplane. The longitudinal axis of the airplane is always kept aligned with the extended runway centerline using rudder, while the airplane can indeed move left and right in relation to the centerline by using ailerons and bank angle. Now you may have to vary the aileron and rudder forces a little to get the result you want, but it isn't any worse than a shallow turn. Come fly with me and I'll demonstrate it to you.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Something tells me there is some confusion between a forward slip and a side slip for landing. In a side slip, which is used for crosswind correction, you aren't turning the airplane. The longitudinal axis of the airplane is always kept aligned with the extended runway centerline using rudder, while the airplane can indeed move left and right in relation to the centerline by using ailerons and bank angle. Now you may have to vary the aileron and rudder forces a little to get the result you want, but it isn't any worse than a shallow turn. Come fly with me and I'll demonstrate it to you.
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There is no confusion and I don't need to fly with you LOL. You must be misreading something I wrote. I already said the same as you said here - that if you're slipping down final in a x-wind (aligned with and tracking the runway), that if x-wind variations require you to make a correction to maintain runway track, that you must deliberately TURN the airplane a little, not simply simultaneously increase or decrease the aileron and rudder slipping inputs, as a previous poster seemed to imply.
 
RoscoeT said:
There is no confusion and I don't need to fly with you LOL. You must be misreading something I wrote. I already said the same you said here - that if you're slipping down final in a x-wind (aligned with and tracking the runway), that if x-wind variations require you to make a correction to maintain runway track, that you must deliberately TURN the airplane a little.
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As I said, I am not TURNing the airplane. If the crosswind increases, I simply add a little more bank to SLIP the airplane back to the centerline. The nose of the airplane doesn't turn. Yeah it may require a little more rudder to keep the nose from turning, but its not difficult.
 
midwestpa24 said:
As I said, I am not TURNing the airplane. If the crosswind increases, I simply add a little more bank to SLIP the airplane back to the centerline. The nose of the airplane doesn't turn. Yeah it may require a little more rudder to keep the nose from turning, but its not difficult.
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We've covered this topic before. You cannot simply move an airplane sideways. Any change in ground track is a TURN. Now you can do a SLIPPING TURN, but you cannot simply move the airplane sideways to adjust track without making a slight turn to a new ground track.
 
It's a frame of reference disagreement. The ground track will indeed curve. So by that frame of reference, it is a turn. If you are handling the bank and rudder correctly, the longitudinal axis of the aircraft will remain aligned with the runway. So the airplane does not change it's heading and therefore (from that frame of reference) does not turn.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Something tells me there is some confusion between a forward slip and a side slip for landing. In a side slip, which is used for crosswind correction, you aren't turning the airplane. The longitudinal axis of the airplane is always kept aligned with the extended runway centerline using rudder, while the airplane can indeed move left and right in relation to the centerline by using ailerons and bank angle. Now you may have to vary the aileron and rudder forces a little to get the result you want, but it isn't any worse than a shallow turn. Come fly with me and I'll demonstrate it to you.
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I've been on aviation message boards for... shucks... nearly 22 years at this point. I've sworn off a few conversations which I've had dozens of times. Can't do them anymore. PIC logging, slips with flaps, safety pilot, 25 squared, a few other old stalwarts... and this one. Confusion over forward slips vs. side slips.

So here you have me breaking tradition. ;)

Look, folks, a slip is a slip. Aerodynamically, a side slip is equivalent to a forward slip. They are exactly the same thing. The aircraft isn't any wiser as to which is which. I am, of course, completely sympathetic to the notion that they are separately named for a reason, and each is used for a different desired outcome. But! ... as an example, a "side slip" in a mild crosswind, perhaps a little high on final, could be converted into a forward slip while maintaining the runway centerline, i.e. a forward slip in the midst of a side slip... virtual chaos! But possible and in fact quite common particularly in airplanes which don't have flaps installed.

The reason people get tripped up on this topic is because ground track is introduced into the equation.

From a pilot's control perspective, there are only two variables involved in this process... varying amounts of cross-controlled aileron and rudder. As soon as you pull the stick a little left and push the rudder a little to the right, the airplane is slipping. Do it more, and it's still slipping, but maybe also losing altitude. Combine these inputs in such a way that the aircraft maintains a runway centerline in a crosswind condition, while modulating power for desired descent rate and pitch for desired airspeed, and you still have a slip. There's no magical combination which moves this into some other category of aerodynamic phenomenon. A slip is... a slip! We just use this technique for different outcomes. That's it.

I'll probably regret breaking my own rule on this, but there you have it. :)

Enjoy,
 
RoscoeT said:
We've covered this topic before. You cannot simply move an airplane sideways. Any change in ground track is a TURN. Now you can do a SLIPPING TURN, but you cannot simply move the airplane sideways to adjust track without making a slight turn to a new ground track.
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In a slip the airplane IS flying sideways. With the airplane on runway centerline and the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with the centerline, the slip counters the crosswind. Stronger crosswind requires more bank to fly sideways more, and more rudder to prevent the yaw that more bank tries to induce. If you're not on centerline you increase or decrease bank to move upwind or downwind respectively. No yawing at all.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If you're not on centerline you increase or decrease bank to move upwind or downwind respectively.
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Yep, you are using the ailerons to TURN the airplane’s track.
 
Ryan F. said:
I've been on aviation message boards for... shucks... nearly 22 years at this point. I've sworn off a few conversations which I've had dozens of times. Can't do them anymore. PIC logging, slips with flaps, safety pilot, 25 squared, a few other old stalwarts... and this one. Confusion over forward slips vs. side slips.

So here you have me breaking tradition. ;)

Look, folks, a slip is a slip. Aerodynamically, a side slip is equivalent to a forward slip. They are exactly the same thing. The aircraft isn't any wiser as to which is which. I am, of course, completely sympathetic to the notion that they are separately named for a reason, and each is used for a different desired outcome. But! ... as an example, a "side slip" in a mild crosswind, perhaps a little high on final, could be converted into a forward slip while maintaining the runway centerline, i.e. a forward slip in the midst of a side slip... virtual chaos! But possible and in fact quite common particularly in airplanes which don't have flaps installed.

The reason people get tripped up on this topic is because ground track is introduced into the equation.

From a pilot's control perspective, there are only two variables involved in this process... varying amounts of cross-controlled aileron and rudder. As soon as you pull the stick a little left and push the rudder a little to the right, the airplane is slipping. Do it more, and it's still slipping, but maybe also losing altitude. Combine these inputs in such a way that the aircraft maintains a runway centerline in a crosswind condition, while modulating power for desired descent rate and pitch for desired airspeed, and you still have a slip. There's no magical combination which moves this into some other category of aerodynamic phenomenon. A slip is... a slip! We just use this technique for different outcomes. That's it.

I'll probably regret breaking my own rule on this, but there you have it. :)

Enjoy,
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Great explanation, understanding what you wrote makes life so much easier while flying in crosswinds. And for the OP, don't forget to watch your airspeed.
 
RoscoeT said:
Yep, you are using the ailerons to TURN the airplane’s track.
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But not necessarily the airplane.... right? Yes, if you're keeping track of a single point on the airplane, say, the center of gravity but you can pick any point, yes, that constant track will show a "turn" I guess, but a point can't turn. Only a line or 3d object can turn... and, if the airplane is kept aligned with the runway and is drifting right or left, it can't be said to be "turning." The overall track will show a curve, but that doesn't mean the aircraft has changed its orientation, except for the infinitesimal change in heading caused by parallax with magnetic north from one side of the runway to the other.
 
MuseChaser said:
But not necessarily the airplane.... right? Yes, if you're keeping track of a single point on the airplane, say, the center of gravity but you can pick any point, yes, that constant track will show a "turn" I guess, but a point can't turn. Only a line or 3d object can turn... and, if the airplane is kept aligned with the runway and is drifting right or left, it can't be said to be "turning." The overall track will show a curve, but that doesn't mean the aircraft has changed its orientation, except for the infinitesimal change in heading caused by parallax with magnetic north from one side of the runway to the other.
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Agreed. I would define, and I think most pilots would agree, that a turn is a change in the heading of the plane, not a change of the track across the ground. Think of it this way. If one is flying along holding a constant heading and flies into an area where there is a crosswind, the track across the ground will be modified, but I don’t think most pilots would say that they have turned.

In a slip, I am using the ailerons to produce a bank which causes the lift vector to have a horizontal component. I use the rudder to maintain a particular heading. Ergo the airplane is not turning, but it is moving sideways.
 
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RoscoeT said:
Yep, you are using the ailerons to TURN the airplane’s track.
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Most people I’ve talked to use the term “turn” when the heading is changing. In this situation the heading is not changing. All @midwestpa24 is saying is that a slip can be established earlier in the approach to align the aircraft heading to the runway heading and maintain the centerline. He proposed that doing this earlier in the approach requires less control inputs close to the ground there by making the approach more stable with less changes to control input in close proximity to the landing.

He is in fact correct. That is why most flight instructors teach their students to do exactly what he said early in the learning process. That was also referenced by another poster further up thread.

I’m not really sure what you are arguing about in your posts. Are you saying there is no way to position the aircraft over the centerline without changing heading to “turn” the aircraft? That sure is what it seems.
 
RoscoeT said:
Problem was his claim that making shallow coordinated turns on final while crabbing to adjust for x-wind variation is somehow more awkward or complicated than making turns while slipping to adjust for the exact same thing. Either way, you have to use the ailerons to turn the airplane, which does not allow you to "have the same [slip] inputs" all the way down final.
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No, you don't make turns when properly slipping for crosswind. More pilots should read Stick and Rudder.
 
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Lindberg said:
No, you don't make turns when properly slipping for crosswind. More pilots should read Stick and Rudder.
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This topic is too much for some of you. If you’re slipping and find yourself drifting off centerline, ya gotta turn the damm airplane to get back on centerline. Jeez
 
RoscoeT said:
ya gotta turn the damm airplane
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you-keep-using-that-word.jpg



:rofl:
 
RoscoeT said:
This topic is too much for some of you. If you’re slipping and find yourself drifting off centerline, ya gotta turn the damm airplane to get back on centerline. Jeez
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You seem to be assuming a forward slip. But for crosswind correction, you use a side slip. Unless the crosswind flips to the other side of the runway, when using a side slip, the controls will go in the same direction all the way down final and through the flare. And no turning.

"The wing-low (sideslip) method will compensate for a crosswind from any angle, but more important, it enables the pilot to simultaneously keep the airplane aligned with the runway centerline throughout the final approach, roundout, touchdown, and after-landing roll."

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https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=34&sID=167&preview=true
 
Lindberg said:
You seem to be assuming a forward slip. But for crosswind correction, you use a side slip. Unless the crosswind flips to the other side of the runway, when using a side slip, the controls will go in the same direction all the way down final and through the flare. And no turning.

"The wing-low (sideslip) method will compensate for a crosswind from any angle, but more important, it enables the pilot to simultaneously keep the airplane aligned with the runway centerline throughout the final approach, roundout, touchdown, and after-landing roll."

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https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=34&sID=167&preview=true
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Forward slip vs sideslip is the biggest pedantic nonsense ever invented by the FAA and repeated by pedantic pilots on internet forums to try to sound erudite. There's no damm difference. Take whatever slip you'd like to think of yourself as doing at the moment, and notice that you need to make a correction for ground track. You have to turn the plane to make that happen. Yeah you can turn while slipping, but it's still a turn.
 
RoscoeT said:
Forward slip vs sideslip is the biggest pedantic nonsense ever invented by the FAA
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That.
RoscoeT said:
you need to make a correction for ground track. You have to turn the plane to make that happen
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Turn as in change the ground track. Not turn as in not changing the direction the nose is pointing.
 
Lindberg said:
Could you be more specific? A lot of things could happen.
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Are you intentionally being obtuse? He's saying what if you're slipping to lose altitude which happens to also put the wing down in the direction to counter x-wind. What kind of slip is that for all the pedants here? This side slip vs. forward slip nonsense doesn't change the fact that if the airplane moves off your intended track based on wind variation, that you gotta do something about it, using the exact same inputs regardless of what kind of nonsense named "slip" you're in.
 
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