Fibbed to ATC. Got Caught. Was given number to call

Racerx said:
This actually happened with me. Picked up a number of bee packages (3lbs of bees per package) apparently one of the packages had a tear in the wire. There's always a few riders. But a few turned into more than a few dozen in a 1 hour flight.
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I call dibs on the screenplay rights!
 
My CFI flew bush/missionary in CA. According to him if you go above 10,000' the bees settle down and take a nap. Of course you gotta come back below 10,000' at some point, unless flying in Nepal.
 
In my experience they will ask you to take some training to prevent the issue from happening again. But how/can you teach ethics?
 
RyanB said:
I would call, especially since you’re trying to fly as a career, you wouldn’t want something as dumb as this to come up later on and adversely affect you.

In the future, if ATC asks whether or not you have the ATIS and you’re juggling other things, just simply tell them no, but you’re working on it - there’s no reason to lie about it.
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Few times I did not have the ATIS or it wouldn’t pick up and I was too close to the airspace, I just inform ATC at the first communication that I do not have the weather and they would just read it to me.
 
I picked up ATIS a few years ago and evidently by coincidence someone blew a tire and they closed the Left runway which is the one I wanted. I noticed when I called tower the controller cleared me to land on right which was on the other side of the airport.Normally i don't have to ask for a runway just the tees i am heading to and they clear for left which is the main runway. I had never landed on right ,our hanger is directly off of left. I questioned him asking for left and he got a little angry in his voice and said cleared for right and basically became a dick. He never told me, I never heard, and i did not know until I landed and hit him for progressive taxi instructions that they had just closed left. He apologized and told me then they were just changing the ATIS to report left had been closed. It was not reported on the ATIS report I called with. I had just fueled up and left a airport about 15m away, got up listened to ATIS and then swapped to CTAF freq and called in. I assume it happened when I was picking up the ATIS report and listening to the traffic channel for incoming traffic I was departing since I never heard anything about it on tower freq after swapping coms.
 
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
 
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E.W. said:
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
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Wow…just wow
 
E.W. said:
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
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The absolute 100% opposite of my experiences to date as well as the published guidance to controllers by the FAA.

I’ve had to make a few calls over the years and they’ve all been constructive - and zero follow-up afterwards.

I can’t count how many times they’ve helped me with weather management and other safety factors. By and large they have worked as team members and not capricious dictators. And if I have a concern, I don’t hesitate to call them and ask about it - and then I become aware of why they did what they did.

Generic bashing seems, well, unwarranted.
 
E.W. said:
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
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Not my experience at all. Most of my experience with ATC is in California, but I've also made several long X-country trips up and down the West Coast, including Canada, as well as flying to TN and AZ several times, so I have got experience dealing to ATC in other parts of the country as well.

I have found that, with a very few exceptions, ATC at all levels (Center, Tracon, and Tower) is made up professional, courteous, and helpful people who are providing great and useful service to us pilots. In many cases, as time allows, I would also add friendly to the list of descriptors. Not sure where the "not our friend" attitude comes from, but I, for one, haven't seen that. Just the opposite in fact.
 
E.W. said:
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
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Nope .. not at all. Ever get to visit the tower and meet these folks? If not you should if it can be arranged.

When you get there you will find human beings with feelings, desires, goals, families and the rest of the exact same things as others of us have. They are trained to be professionals and, in my experience, they very much are.

Do people sometimes have a bad day or make a mistake? Sure because we all do. But your post is obviously misleading ...
 
E.W. said:
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
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While this controller’s snarky attitude wasn’t helpful to the situation, this isn’t the norm. Has nothing to do with government work either. My dad retired FSS (all FAA) and I assure you, they had rules to address briefers that got attitudes with pilots. FAA controllers, DoD civ controllers and military controllers are all under the same rules of ATC service as a private contract tower.
 
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Hmmmm, I think I have only run into one real douche bag controller, out of the thousands of interactions I've had with them. Even he gave me the service I needed, so I won in the end. On the other hand controllers have helped me sometimes unsolicited more times than I can count.

The best line I've heard was on the Opposing Bases podcast, they were discussing some controllers being jerks. One of them said, "Look, if you as a pilot don't like a particular controller, chances are we, the co-workers don't like them either." That cracked me up.
 
In thirty years, I can count on one hand the number of times that I have had less than satisfactory interactions with a controller, and in probably half of those, I contributed to the problem.
 
E.W. said:
This story really highlights the simple fact that the air traffic controller is not the pilot's friend. For all government airports, they never were. They simply have no incentive to be.
Granted, at a privately owned and run airport it would be different. Then the ATC would have an incentive to be helpful to the pilots.
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Have never had a problem with ATC. Must be a specific problem for some.
 
I'm delighted you've had positive experiences. I'm really very happy for you, that's wonderful.

I'm not bashing the controllers, that's an unfair characterization. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they're human and like all humans they respond to incentive. Everyone responds to incentives, that's how all creatures operate every day.

It's very simple. At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it. It's not bashing, it's not rocket science, it's just basic logic and humanity.

This is why you get better service at Walmart than you do at the DMV.


Llewtrah381 said:
The absolute 100% opposite of my experiences to date as well as the published guidance to controllers by the FAA.

I’ve had to make a few calls over the years and they’ve all been constructive - and zero follow-up afterwards.

I can’t count how many times they’ve helped me with weather management and other safety factors. By and large they have worked as team members and not capricious dictators. And if I have a concern, I don’t hesitate to call them and ask about it - and then I become aware of why they did what they did.

Generic bashing seems, well, unwarranted.
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E.W. said:
I'm delighted you've had positive experiences. I'm really very happy for you, that's wonderful.

I'm not bashing the controllers, that's an unfair characterization. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they're human and like all humans they respond to incentive. Everyone responds to incentives, that's how all creatures operate every day.

It's very simple. At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it. It's not bashing, it's not rocket science, it's just basic logic and humanity.

This is why you get better service at Walmart than you do at the DMV.
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Job satisfaction is an incentive. I think many people get satisfaction from a job well done, and find their work more enjoyable when they have harmonious relations with the people they are interacting with.
 
Fortunately there are people in the world that are indeed interested in doing a job right, want to have pride in their job. Not everyone is only concerned with themselves (themself?).
 
E.W. said:
It's very simple. At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it. It's not bashing, it's not rocket science, it's just basic logic and humanity.

This is why you get better service at Walmart than you do at the DMV.
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I’m assuming you extend those sentiments to the military, police, firefighters, EMS, and other public servants? If not, why the distinction?
 
E.W. said:
It's very simple. At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it. It's not bashing, it's not rocket science, it's just basic logic and humanity.
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That works very well in practice, but how does it work out in theory?
 
E.W. said:
I'm delighted you've had positive experiences. I'm really very happy for you, that's wonderful.

I'm not bashing the controllers, that's an unfair characterization. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they're human and like all humans they respond to incentive. Everyone responds to incentives, that's how all creatures operate every day.

It's very simple. At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it. It's not bashing, it's not rocket science, it's just basic logic and humanity.

This is why you get better service at Walmart than you do at the DMV.
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I've noticed a clear theme in your posts. It seems you're here to [bash] the FAA. Why not introduce yourself and tell us how the FAA wronged you.
 
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The job of a controller is not customer service. It is preventing aviation accidents. Their employment incentives are set up accordingly. If making pilots happy was the top priority, then there would be more crashes, because they would be less empowered to assert themselves when necessary.

I don't know about the rest of you, but not crashing makes me happy.
 
PaulS said:
Maybe a doll might help with the explanation?
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C2C1FFA4-9408-4A54-8237-A95406169F8A.gif
 
E.W. said:
I'm delighted you've had positive experiences. I'm really very happy for you, that's wonderful.

I'm not bashing the controllers, that's an unfair characterization. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they're human and like all humans they respond to incentive. Everyone responds to incentives, that's how all creatures operate every day.

It's very simple. At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it. It's not bashing, it's not rocket science, it's just basic logic and humanity.

This is why you get better service at Walmart than you do at the DMV.
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You make it sound like their jobs are secure no matter how badly they perform. That just isn’t true. They get performance reviews just like most other jobs. ATC Management investigates complaints just like most other jobs. Traditionally ATC has had high washout rates.

Now, I’d admit that controllers today are being pushed through the system because they’ve been so short on staffing, but that happens with every vocation. Supply and demand. The OP’s example has nothing to do with lack of training though. It’s just a controller making a big deal about a situation that should’ve just been dropped. Probably just having a bad day.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The job of a controller is not customer service. It is preventing aviation accidents. Their employment incentives are set up accordingly.
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How does that work... a bonus based on how many days since the last plane crash? Or do they get moved to a desk if there's a crash on their watch ?

I actually know very little about that side of the house, so this fascinates me.
 
The two times I was given a number to call, the controllers just seemed to be interested in promoting safety, not pursuing a violation. (One was Oakland Tower. The other was Mugu Approach.)
 
Sorry - resuscitating this nearly dead thread just to state, without any backing, that ATC is not the pilot's friend is just not sitting well with me.

E.W. said:
At an airport funded by government taxation, the salaries and job retention of everyone involved do not require and are not contingent upon how happy the pilots are with the service. Therefore there is no incentive to please the pilots. That's it.
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This implies service from ATC would get much better if it was not funded by government taxation. So, self-sustaining user fees for aviation is the solution? If not, what do you realistically propose? And from toll roads to National Park campground reservations, have you ever seen where privatizing something cost the user less money?

E.W. said:
This is why you get better service at Walmart than you do at the DMV.
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There's a lot to unpack in this one. First, I'm not sure about the service at a typical Walmart: I go there for the prices and selection and, while people aren't (often) rude there, customer service is not on my personal list of reasons to go there. And they resource their activities in the best way to make a profit; ATC, the military, police, the DMV and the fire department resource in a way to provide the best service within a fixed budget - by design, they do not pursue profits. Incidentally, the DMV is a State agency - not Federal. They do highly redundant work for people who would rather not need to go there. Not a very "incentivizing" task. And not even close to the rewarding work ATC does.

There's a lot of things in our lives that can be improved. Generic sniping without offering credible reasons, let alone credible solutions, seems to fall in the category of "intellectual vandalism": just randomly damaging what others have built.

Stepping off my soapbox now
 
schmookeeg said:
How does that work... a bonus based on how many days since the last plane crash? Or do they get moved to a desk if there's a crash on their watch ?

I actually know very little about that side of the house, so this fascinates me.
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If if they have an accident, Lumberg talks to them about TPS reports.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
"The absolute 100% opposite of my experiences to date as well as the published guidance to controllers by the FAA."
A few ATC documents worth perusing:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/atb_march_2021.pdf See the second article, on page 2, especially the introductory paragraph.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8000.373A.pdf Note the last sentence of 4e in particular.
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What I said is not the opposite of published guidance to controllers. There is no published guidance advising controllers to genuinely be as a friend to the pilot.
The two pieces of writing you highlight offer little actual guidance to controllers. It's mostly fluffy pillow speak about how wonderful the FAA is.
However you overlooked one important sentence offering true guidance to the controller:

"This detached and professional approach is the best way we can support Flight Standards in conducting an investigation that leads to a positive, safety-enhancing conclusion."

In other words, the controller can best assist in the initial stages of investigating the pilot by being polite. Notice the controller is directed to assist the FAA, not the pilot.
I'm not saying the controller is never helpful to the pilot, I'm just pointing out the inescapable fact that controllers have no monetary incentive to be your friend and everyone runs on incentives.
 
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