FF and No Hand-off

TXTBOOK

TXTBOOK

Filing Flight Plan
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Orange County, CA
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TXTBOOK
I'd like to discuss a scenario that may occur and get any feedback on how to best handle it and/or what might be causing it/how to avoid.

The scenario is flying along on VFR flight following (Socal area including Pt. Mugu etc) single engine piston, for example) and not getting any handoff to the next sector/being "forgot about".

In one scenario, one may not realize the situation has occurred until out of range of the controller and unable to raise any other aircraft on freq, but ready for VFR decent into an uncontrolled field or otherwise intending to now cancel flight following. What's best practice as pilot in this scenario? Squawk VFR and switch to advisory, and nothing further? Is Socal looking for you and you need to try and close the loop, or just move on?

In another scenario, let's say you're aware that you are nearing the handoff point (based on experience etc) or believe you have past it and should be on the next controller by now. Do you jump in and ask or wait for the call? What if you can no longer hear the controller, but can hear some aircraft transmitting back to him/her (you've waited to long to ask)?

More generally, what is happening here assuming the pilot isn't simply missing the calls? Are they just forgetting us?

If not already monitoring 121.5, would the be trying to contact you there? Should you try to contact them there?
 
If you squawk 1200 and land at your destination, there is no need to close the loop. FF is offered as a convenient service and they have no responsibility to separate you from traffic or come find you if you don't officially get the "radar service terminated squawk 1200" line.

However, if you're halfway through a long cross country and would in-fact like to have FF for the rest of your trip, you'll need to get another appropriate frequency. IFR low enroute charts have these frequencies throughout the chart. If you don't have access to that chart, but do have a GPS that has airport information, find an airport (no matter how small) ahead of you on your course. Go to the frequencies section for that airport. The Approach or Center frequency that overlies that airport is probably listed.

Finally, if you think you're not hearing the controller anymore because the frequency went silent, first thing is to turn the squelch off for 30 seconds and see if you hear them. If nothing, ask for a radio check with squelch off. If you raise them at least you know they've remembered you at that point. If all else fails, just try the next frequency ahead.
 
I don't think SoCal would intentionally just let you fly away and not hand you off to the next controller, but yeah, this stuff can happen. In my experience it's more of a case where I fly into a region that has bad radio reception and the result is a missed handoff. What I normally do is just look up the Approach frequency for the nearest airport and contact SoCal letting them know that I lost contact with my last controller. They will get you sorted out. if you can't reach anyone, then I typically stay on the assigned squawk until I get farther down the road, then try again with SoCal. If you're flying in the SoCal area, then we know you're ADS-B out (at least), if you end up being unable to get re-established with SoCal, just squawk 1200 and move along with your day.
 
KeepWatch said:
If you squawk 1200 and land at your destination, there is no need to close the loop. FF is offered as a convenient service and they have no responsibility to separate you from traffic or come find you if you don't officially get the "radar service terminated squawk 1200" line.
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Well, except for this fro the ATC manual...
Consider an aircraft to be in an emergency status and initiate ALNOT procedures in this section immediately when there is an abnormal simultaneous loss of radar and communications with an IFR aircraft or VFR/SVFR aircraft receiving flight following services.​
 
TXTBOOK said:
In one scenario, one may not realize the situation has occurred until out of range of the controller and unable to raise any other aircraft on freq, but ready for VFR decent into an uncontrolled field or otherwise intending to now cancel flight following. What's best practice as pilot in this scenario? Squawk VFR and switch to advisory, and nothing further? Is Socal looking for you and you need to try and close the loop, or just move on?
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I would close the loop. As I point out in another post, ATC is supposed to treat an unexplained loss of com and radar contact as a lost aircraft and initiate search and rescue. You know you have lost com; you don't know whether they see you or not, especially if you switch to squawking 1200.

The one time I had it happen I was enroute between Alburquerque and Las Cruces. Clouds were building and I had to go lower to maintain VFR even had to divert and land. Below communications line of sight. Maybe below radar contact as well. I saw from the chart there was a local FSS communication facility so I called them and old them to relay to ATC that we were fine.
 
Interesting points regarding becoming lost comms AND radar. It never occurred to me that for any reason I may have dropped from the scope. Would it change your actions if you had no reason to believe you were lost on their scope (obviously you can't truly know if they see you/don't, but you're within 30nm of primary class B airport, ADS-B equipped, and all systems appear nominal)? Versus the scenario of being low, perhaps area of known limited radar coverage, etc?
 
I can't count the number of times I've been forgotten about on FF or on IFR flight plan. I have had them call me up on 121.5, I have had them relay to me via another aircraft, and I have contacted them on the ARTCC frequency listed on the low enroute charts. I've never went 1200 and landed without some sort of communication first.
 
TXTBOOK said:
Interesting points regarding becoming lost comms AND radar. It never occurred to me that for any reason I may have dropped from the scope. Would it change your actions if you had no reason to believe you were lost on their scope (obviously you can't truly know if they see you/don't, but you're within 30nm of primary class B airport, ADS-B equipped, and all systems appear nominal)? Versus the scenario of being low, perhaps area of known limited radar coverage, etc?
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Only in terms of whom I called. In my scenario I had to scramble a bit to locate a frequency which might hear me. In yours, SOCAL airspace, there's like 40. Why wouldn't you call to close the loop when it's so easy to do? As mom might say when you come home a 3 am and she's been up all night worrying about you, "The least you could have done is call!" "Don't worry, Mom. They'd call you if I were in an accident" is not a particularly good answer.

FWIW, I think part of the issue is
TXTBOOK said:
Do you jump in and ask or wait for the call?
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Situational awareness says you jump in. I literally uploaded a video today on that. It involved an IFR flight, so it's not particularly germane, but it includes twice in one flight where I had to prompt ATC.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Only in terms of whom I called. In my scenario I had to scramble a bit to locate a frequency which might hear me. In yours, SOCAL airspace, there's like 40. Why wouldn't you call to close the loop when it's so easy to do? As mom might say when you come home a 3 am and she's been up all night worrying about you, "The least you could have done is call!" "Don't worry, Mom. They'd call you if I were in an accident" is not a particularly good answer.

FWIW, I think part of the issue is

Situational awareness says you jump in. I literally uploaded a video today on that. It involved an IFR flight, so it's not particularly germane, but it includes twice in one flight where I had to prompt ATC.
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Yup, this make sense to me. When in doubt, ask.
 
TXTBOOK said:
IIf not already monitoring 121.5, would the be trying to contact you there? Should you try to contact them there?
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I have 121.5 on Comm2 all the time in my area. Most GA can't be heard below 9500 east of El Paso to FT Stockton TX. Have had airlines relay to me from center before.

I've relayed for ABQ Center before to the Mexican air force when they were on our side, failed to comply with instructions when they were let across, and relayed for ABQ center to get out of the airspace.
 
TXTBOOK said:
Wow, I bet that was quite the experience!
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It was, they were "kicked out" for trying low level high speed maneuvering near Guadalupe Peak, when they were given a strict altitude. ABQ Center was worried that they were so out of control they'd cause a mid air (they were a flight of four but separated which started the whole mess).
 
Welp, checking back in on this thread and there's been quite a bit of talk since my opinion of "don't worry about closing the loop" happened. Certainly, the facts of the day need to be considered. The facts I had in mind were a busy controller, drifting outside their comm coverage before handoff, and cruising along on a nice VFR day at 6000+ AGL. It's happened to me a couple of times in 20 years. I was within 30nm of my destination, squawked 1200, made a normal decent, and called it a day. I don't think anybody lost sleep over it.
 
KeepWatch said:
The facts I had in mind were a busy controller, drifting outside their comm coverage before handoff, and cruising along on a nice VFR day at 6000+ AGL. It's happened to me a couple of times in 20 years. I was within 30nm of my destination, squawked 1200, made a normal decent, and called it a day. I don't think anybody lost sleep over it.
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For what it's worth, this has been my experience.
 
When I delivered Pipers from Florida to Seattle I spent a lot of motel room time going through the A/FD (now part of the Chart Supplement) and writing down as many comm freqs along the next day's route of flight as possible. I also read the Communications section of the applicable A/FD's. Lots of good reading in the Legend pages.

I was also proactive in giving the controller I was talking to a gentle nudge if I thought one was necessary: "Center, what is the frequency for (the next Center)?" I knew what is was, of course, but it reminded ATC that I was nearing a boundary.
The Communications listing for airports with ATC coverage includes Center, Approach Control, or Center/Approach Control for airports out in the boonies.
 
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bobmrg said:
When I delivered Pipers from Florida to Seattle I spent a lot of motel room time going through the A/FD (now part of the Chart Supplement) and writing down as many comm freqs along the next day's route of flight as possible. I also read the Communications section of the applicable A/FD's. Lots of good reading in the Legend pages.

I was also proactive in giving the controller I was talking to a gentle nudge if I thought one was necessary: "Center, what is the frequency for (the next Center)?" I knew what is was, of course, but it reminded ATC that I was nearing a boundary.
The Communications listing for airports with ATC coverage includes Center, Approach Control, or Center/Approach Control for airports out in the boonies.
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This got me thinking... is there/why isn't there a simple map available of all tracon and center frequencies based on sectors?
 
TXTBOOK said:
This got me thinking... is there/why isn't there a simple map available of all tracon and center frequencies based on sectors?
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Low altitude IFR charts is my best suggestion, although when you ask for "all" frequencies you are skimming over the fact that each ATC facility has access to several transmitter locations, each with its own frequency(s) it is no longer a simple map but the aviation equivalent of a road atlas. When you contrast the number of pilots who go through their entire flying life without talking to ATC (not talking to anyone, for that matter) with the number who use ATC services daily, and consider that almost all of latter are instrument rated and have access to multiple sources for that information, it hardly seems worth while. How many instrument-rated pilots do you know that flip through the AIM in flight?

Have you run into this yet" "BuzzBomb 1234X contact me on my frequency 126.1" when you are already talking to him or her on 119.6? You will be talking to the same person, sitting at the same console at an ATC facility, but you are nearing a sector boundary and will soon be unable to communicate on 119.6.


Bob
 
Friend of mine lost comms on flight following, finished up his flight (150ish miles) 1200 and landed, put the plane in the hangar. Atc called the destination who hadn’t noticed the plane and it wasn’t on the ramp, atc then called the departure airport, who called everyone they knew to see if anyone knew how to get ahold of the pilot to verify he was down safe. He got a number to call, but they just told him “Call us when you land if you lose comms so we know you’re ok”
 
They typically don’t just forget about you, also when you open a flight plan and don’t close it after you land, you get yelled at, ask me how I know it.

A couple of weeks back I was going to a podunk airport about 100nm or so away, was in FF, in know in that area after a while they will loose me on radar. That time came and went, no comm, I keyed in a couple of times and no answer, the first thing I thought was if I lost both comm or the headset stopped working. Anyway, after troubleshooting and verifying that it was not on my end, I tuned in to the nearest ARTCC and just told them hey I was with MSP center on 137.xx and then everything went quite, so calling you guys. They told me thanks for getting back to them, they couldn’t raise me on the other frequency, there went much traffic around to relay and they were wondering if i had lost comm or not.

Anyway, point is, let them know. They are offering a service to keep us safe/ help, least we can do is to make an effort and ensure they know we are safe.
 
TXTBOOK said:
This got me thinking... is there/why isn't there a simple map available of all tracon and center frequencies based on sectors?
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There is for Center but not TRACON because they are not necessarily a fixed thing. While APP/DEP frequencies for an airport is fixed, the sectors can expand and contract based on workload as well as vary with altitude.

My go to is just the "INFO" tab on Foreflight for the nearest airport for approach frequencies. IFR plates and Chart Supplements also have all that info as well as "nearest" center frequencies on may GPS units like the 430. While it may not be the exact proper frequency for your location they will tell you what is or be able to relay info should you ever loose coms with current frequency for whatever reason.

As other said, it is never a good idea to just drop off without some sort of notification. They can not just say "meh, they are probably good" without followup and a lot of potential workload for you thinking otherwise if they are not 100% sure that now 1200 target is you.
 
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WannFly said:
.... also when you open a flight plan and don’t close it after you land, you get yelled at, ask me how I know it.
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I don't use flight plans anymore ... was on one El Paso to Carlsbad NM. Tried to close it in the air, and they said they'd prefer I call from the ground in case I crashed in the pattern. I called from the ground and everything was hunky dory.

On return leg the next day, briefer indicates my FP is still open from the day before. I inform him the story above, and that if it was still open, why they weren't calling the contact numbers or searching already ... his response was a FAST, current flight plan activated, previous flight plan is now closed, good day and then nothing ...

You'd do better TEXTING it to some flying buddies or the wife. I do that and can TEXT report if under 4000 AGL each of the way points on the cross country. Still on FF though as backup ...
 
danhagan said:
I don't use flight plans anymore ... was on one El Paso to Carlsbad NM. Tried to close it in the air, and they said they'd prefer I call from the ground in case I crashed in the pattern. I called from the ground and everything was hunky dory.

On return leg the next day, briefer indicates my FP is still open from the day before. I inform him the story above, and that if it was still open, why they weren't calling the contact numbers or searching already ... his response was a FAST, current flight plan activated, previous flight plan is now closed, good day and then nothing ...

You'd do better TEXTING it to some flying buddies or the wife. I do that and can TEXT report if under 4000 AGL each of the way points on the cross country. Still on FF though as backup ...
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Closed a FP in the air as I was entering the pattern on a night flight. Good landing, put the plane away and drove home. 30 minutes after my head hit the pillow my phone rings and the person on the other end was asking if I arrived safely. I told him yes and that i closed the FP in the air, he just said, yep, our system is acting up tonight and some of the processes didn't stick so they were verifying everything manually.

In regards to the FF and having ATC forget about you. Happened once on a busy day just after Covid sent many controllers home. I got FF and a squak code then nothing from the controller after initial contact for 30 minutes. As I was about to leave his area I just politely called him up and asked if he wanted me to switch to the next frequency. He said, he was setting that up as I was calling him then quickly responded with a new frequency, thanked me for being patient and all was well. I knew he forgot about me (or just got busy with other traffic) when I had two other aircraft fairly close to me that were never called out on my route. My son was fine helping spot traffic and it was really a non issue. After all, FF doesn't remove my responsibility to keep my eyes out the windows.
 
Using text messages to activate and close your flightplan via "EasyActivate" and "EasyClose" through Flight Service has never been easier.

 
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smv said:
Using text messages to activate and close your flightplan via "EasyActivate" and "EasyClose" through Flight Service has never been easier.
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I saw that, but haven't tried it ... will give it a whirl on the next long XC
 
You open and close them from your EFB as well, having said that I haven’t use FP in a while. Sealing of forgetting, the other day tower forgot to hand me over to departure, after leaving delta I just politely told him I am ready to switch to departure.
 
The area you fly in is the one area that I don't have 121.5 monitored, strictly because MOST of the frequencies have a pretty good range (unless it's something around PSP) and also because I basically have all the frequencies memorized. I do know that sometimes Mugu won't take a handoff from SCT, for whatever reason, so it's a good idea to know roughly where the airspace begins and ends (the 23 Freeway for Mugu and SCT, DEANO for Mugu and SBA) and also what your next frequency is.

If the untowered airport you are referring to is SZP, 134.2/128.75 on SCT should easily be able to hear you at a reasonable altitude (say 2000 MSL and up) and you should be able to inform them if you need to.
 
Interesting - had this happen last Oct. What I did was review my notes from FF I had the day before, and called on the frequency I had before I was handed off to the Approach that was now forgetting me. In my case that "forgetting approach" I believe realized they hadn't handed me off, tried to reach me but I was out of range, and started calling the rental place, other ATC, etc.
 
WDD said:
Interesting - had this happen last Oct. What I did was review my notes from FF I had the day before, and called on the frequency I had before I was handed off to the Approach that was now forgetting me. In my case that "forgetting approach" I believe realized they hadn't handed me off, tried to reach me but I was out of range, and started calling the rental place, other ATC, etc.
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They have us on radar around here, but sometimes they hang on to us too long. I was flying through the bravo here, called the airport in sight, no response. In fact it was eerily quiet on the freq. So I called again, then turned off the squelch. I could barely hear him, but he heard me. This is standard SOP for me now if I lose ATC, turn off the squelch. Works most of the time.
 
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