Fences...

mscard88

mscard88

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Mark
Part of GA's decline, fences. Wasn't that long ago there were no fences around small airports. I think this picture says a lot.

image.jpeg

Warren Ludlam submitted the following photo and note: "Matt and Kimberlin Belloni and their 2-1/2-year-old son, Wyatt, frequently enjoy going to Santa Monica Airport in Southern California on weekends for family outings to watch the planes take off and land," according to family member Warren Ludlam of Carolina Avionics
 
My girlfriend and I just flew to Rome, NY --Griffiss Airport, an old air force base. We arrived about 10 minutes after the local FBO closed (they were advised we were coming and supposed to wait for us, which is another story). We were locked in the airport: 8 foot high fence, all around, with 2 feet of razor wire on top. After two hours of walking around, trying to find a way out, I called Rome PD, who had an emergency pass card. They came and let us out. Not very inviting, for sure.
 
MENDING WALL
Robert Frost



Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
'Stay where you are until our backs are turned!'
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors'.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."
 
tawood said:
My girlfriend and I just flew to Rome, NY --Griffiss Airport, an old air force base. We arrived about 10 minutes after the local FBO closed (they were advised we were coming and supposed to wait for us, which is another story). We were locked in the airport: 8 foot high fence, all around, with 2 feet of razor wire on top. After two hours of walking around, trying to find a way out, I called Rome PD, who had an emergency pass card. They came and let us out. Not very inviting, for sure.
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Our outside gate has a button one pushes to open the gate from the inside to exit out to the parking area. I would query the airport manager and ask how one is supposed to exit and suggest a gate like ours if they don't have one there.
 
mscard88 said:
Our outside gate has a button one pushes to open the gate from the inside to exit out to the parking area. I would query the airport manager and ask how one is supposed to exit and suggest a gate like ours if they don't have one there.
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I literally just got off the phone with him, and I suggested that...they seem to think that would be a problem, and instead, said they are posting after hours phone numbers. Still sounds like a PITA to me.
 
mscard88 said:
Part of GA's decline, fences.
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And heaven forbid you stand at the fence and take photos of the airplanes just because you love airplanes.

You'll likely be arrested and questioned for suspected terrorist activity.
 
Since we have to worry about terrorists stealing our aircraft to commit mayhem.

You'd think that big fences would make our expensive avionics that much safer, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
I never have known for sure under who’s direction airport fences were/are erected.

Wasn’t too long ago that KCDK was fenceless. Then when a fence went up it is, I think, like 3’ tall and does not enclose the approach and departure ends at all..

It is tourist friendly in that it allows easy viewing; but being a touristy town, I’m kind of glad it’s there: keeps the curious clueless from climbing all over parked planes (mostly), keeps dogs and ear-budded joggers off the runway (mostly), and keeps pilots from using the adjacent parallel roadway as a taxiway.
 
mscard88 said:
image-jpeg.66289
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How do we know these aren't "Bad People"? The shorter person looks small enough to crawl back into the tail cone of an aircraft and hide an explosive device.

See something, say something.
 
tawood said:
I literally just got off the phone with him, and I suggested that...they seem to think that would be a problem, and instead, said they are posting after hours phone numbers. Still sounds like a PITA to me.
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I agree. It isn't a problem at this airport, and it's a fairly busy airport. The location of the inside button can not be reached by someone on the outside of the fence. Maybe call AOPA and tell them your experiences there, along with what the manager said. You could also call or fill out the online form at the FAA Hotline and report it.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/aae/programs_services/faa_hotlines/
 
steingar said:
Since we have to worry about terrorists stealing our aircraft to commit mayhem.

You'd think that big fences would make our expensive avionics that much safer, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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It only works on the law-abiding citizens.
 
.....and referable to the OP’s initial photo: I sure as hell hope someone doesn’t remotely open that gate with that toddler standing there. :oops::(
 
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tawood said:
My girlfriend and I just flew to Rome, NY --Griffiss Airport, an old air force base. We arrived about 10 minutes after the local FBO closed (they were advised we were coming and supposed to wait for us, which is another story). We were locked in the airport: 8 foot high fence, all around, with 2 feet of razor wire on top. After two hours of walking around, trying to find a way out, I called Rome PD, who had an emergency pass card. They came and let us out. Not very inviting, for sure.
Click to expand...

Are you sure you didn't land in an emergency internment camp?
 
Might ruffle some feathers, but I'm all for security fences at busier towered fields as shown in the OP's photo. There's no reason that random bystanders should be allowed onto busy active ramps just to watch airplanes.
 
Ryanb said:
Might ruffle some feathers, but I'm all for security fences at busier towered fields as shown in the OP's photo. There's no reason that random bystanders should be allowed onto busy active ramps just to watch airplanes.
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I am in favor of fences for many reasons.

1. Wildlife, which is the purpose of many airport fences. Prior to our local airport getting a fully enclosed wildlife fence, it was common to have a dozen deer lingering on the airfield every night. It took a plane hitting one to get the fence paid for. Since the fence, deer have been totally excluded. Very important to keep all accesses closed in order to keep the deer out.

2. It does deter the casual troublemaker/thief. Yes a fence won't stop anyone serious from getting in, but it does help prevent the crime of opportunity types that would vandalize, steal, or otherwise mess with things that they shouldn't. Some things may even be done innocently enough by someone without knowledge, but could cause damage or injury. Also keeps the area youths from taking over the runway as a drag strip. Nothing like being on short final when some hot rod whips out onto the runway in front of you.

I do however think it is important for the community to be invited to the airport in order to build interest in aviation. Open houses, fly-ins, tours, airshows all can help people get past the fence and gain interest. It is also important to have a means for transient pilots to get out and back in after hours if not attended 24/7. Our pedestrian gates have crash bars to get out, and the code to return on the inside.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I am in favor of fences for many reasons.

1. Wildlife, which is the purpose of many airport fences. Prior to our local airport getting a fully enclosed wildlife fence, it was common to have a dozen deer lingering on the airfield every night. It took a plane hitting one to get the fence paid for. Since the fence, deer have been totally excluded. Very important to keep all accesses closed in order to keep the deer out.

2. It does deter the casual troublemaker/thief. Yes a fence won't stop anyone serious from getting in, but it does help prevent the crime of opportunity types that would vandalize, steal, or otherwise mess with things that they shouldn't. Some things may even be done innocently enough by someone without knowledge, but could cause damage or injury. Also keeps the area youths from taking over the runway as a drag strip. Nothing like being on short final when some hot rod whips out onto the runway in front of you.

I do however think it is important for the community to be invited to the airport in order to build interest in aviation. Open houses, fly-ins, tours, airshows all can help people get past the fence and gain interest. It is also important to have a means for transient pilots to get out and back in after hours if not attended 24/7. Our pedestrian gates have crash bars to get out, and the code to return on the inside.
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I agree with everything you just stated. I’m also a big proponent of Fly-in’s and Open Houses.
 
I'd think that a space could be opened up at just about any airport (maybe Class D or lower), in view of the runway, where a small kiddie park/observation area could be installed. Sure, keep some 4' chain-link or similar fencing to keep stray kids off of the movement areas, but there's no reason you can't have a place to entice the public to come watch if they so choose. Maybe a fence with Plexiglas or similar.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I am in favor of fences for many reasons.

1. Wildlife, which is the purpose of many airport fences. Prior to our local airport getting a fully enclosed wildlife fence, it was common to have a dozen deer lingering on the airfield every night. It took a plane hitting one to get the fence paid for. Since the fence, deer have been totally excluded. Very important to keep all accesses closed in order to keep the deer out.

2. It does deter the casual troublemaker/thief. Yes a fence won't stop anyone serious from getting in, but it does help prevent the crime of opportunity types that would vandalize, steal, or otherwise mess with things that they shouldn't. Some things may even be done innocently enough by someone without knowledge, but could cause damage or injury. Also keeps the area youths from taking over the runway as a drag strip. Nothing like being on short final when some hot rod whips out onto the runway in front of you.

I do however think it is important for the community to be invited to the airport in order to build interest in aviation. Open houses, fly-ins, tours, airshows all can help people get past the fence and gain interest. It is also important to have a means for transient pilots to get out and back in after hours if not attended 24/7. Our pedestrian gates have crash bars to get out, and the code to return on the inside.
Click to expand...

I also agree with this. But I think the problem is the sign more than the fence. The sign gives a very hostile, unwelcome feel to regular law abiding people and probably does not deter the bad guy much.

This is a case of both good and bad results. The bad is that even without the sign people cannot mingle with pilots and that probably does hurt GA. You're preflighting your plane and some kid comes up and expresses interest, might be annoying but then you might enjoy sparking an interest in aviation in the little guy. On the other hand, I'd want to kill a kid that climbed up on my low wing without permission. So fences protect tied down planes in that regard.

In areas with deer problems, or alligators (remember that pic?) you do need a fence and a high one, or one that can't be crawled under.

But I remember the days I could go to the airport at night and lie off the end of the runway and have planes take off or land over me. And I'm not just talking about GA but the major airports too. You need no fence or one you can climb for that.
 
mscard88 said:
Part of GA's decline, fences. Wasn't that long ago there were no fences around small airports. I think this picture says a lot.

View attachment 66289

Warren Ludlam submitted the following photo and note: "Matt and Kimberlin Belloni and their 2-1/2-year-old son, Wyatt, frequently enjoy going to Santa Monica Airport in Southern California on weekends for family outings to watch the planes take off and land," according to family member Warren Ludlam of Carolina Avionics
Click to expand...
While that photo serves to make your point, those of us familiar with the Santa Monica airport know that there is an observation deck in front of the terminal that anyone can access. Unless they took it out when they shortened the runway. It's one of the better ones that I've seen.
 
The guys from Airplane Repo never had a problem with no stinking fences. :rolleyes:
 
Ryanb said:
Might ruffle some feathers, but I'm all for security fences...
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but if the general public is fenced away from White Cessnas and White Pipers...then how are they supposed to learn what they are and make proper radio calls if they ever learn how to fly?
 
timwinters said:
but if the general public is fenced away from White Cessnas and White Pipers...then how are they supposed to learn what they are and make proper radio calls if they ever learn how to fly?
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5311C180-D04F-4DA4-B408-5E476159D7BA.gif
 
jkaduk said:
While that photo serves to make your point, those of us familiar with the Santa Monica airport know that there is an observation deck in front of the terminal that anyone can access. Unless they took it out when they shortened the runway. It's one of the better ones that I've seen.
Click to expand...

I was going to say the same thing. I'm not a local, but I was at SMO about 6 weeks ago. There's an awesome, large and very public observation deck for watching airplanes. And there were several people with kids up there when we stopped by.
 
tawood said:
My girlfriend and I just flew to Rome, NY --Griffiss Airport, an old air force base. We arrived about 10 minutes after the local FBO closed (they were advised we were coming and supposed to wait for us, which is another story). We were locked in the airport: 8 foot high fence, all around, with 2 feet of razor wire on top. After two hours of walking around, trying to find a way out, I called Rome PD, who had an emergency pass card. They came and let us out. Not very inviting, for sure.
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I was gonna make a snide remark re you getting a taste of being locked up the wrong side of the fence, but thought better of it. ;)

KRME is my milk-run destination, daughter and grandkiddies live nearby. Always had decent service from Millionair, but never been there at off times. Tower's open until 2100. I personally wouldn't have waited two hours; and it's amazing that the place is deserted when it's closed. But it is Rome, NY...

I'd drop a line to the GM. That's just crazy.
 
paflyer said:
I was gonna make a snide remark re you getting a taste of being locked up the wrong side of the fence, but thought better of it. ;)

KRME is my milk-run destination, daughter and grandkiddies live nearby. Always had decent service from Millionair, but never been there at off times. Tower's open until 2100. I personally wouldn't have waited two hours; and it's amazing that the place is deserted when it's closed. But it is Rome, NY...

I'd drop a line to the GM. That's just crazy.
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That taste was enough! lol

I spoke with Millionaire today too, and they were nice/did offer to give me a fuel discount if I stop by again. I think the line guy and I just had a misunderstanding, and it gave my girlfriend and I a story about our adventure, so no major harm done.
 
tawood said:
That taste was enough! lol

I spoke with Millionaire today too, and they were nice/did offer to give me a fuel discount if I stop by again. I think the line guy and I just had a misunderstanding, and it gave my girlfriend and I a story about our adventure, so no major harm done.
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Maybe call the airport manager too. Not to give Millionair grief, but as a municipal airport there should be some non-FBO way out of there, at the very least an emergency contact number that's really visible for off-hours arrivals.

Did you stop in to attend trump's fund raiser event in Utica?
 
I generally try to talk to kids when I see them checking out aircraft, and I have brought a few out to check out the airplane up close. But I was at a little air show this spring, talking to guy with a glider on display. A boy, about 4 or 5 walked up with his dad, the guy asked the dad if he wanted to put the kid in the glider, the dad said sure, lifted the kid into the glider, the kid grabs the stick, jams it forward back, side to side and around in a circle as fast and hard as he could. The guy told him to stop, then the dad says, "Now Johnny, I told you a few minutes ago in the other plane not to do that anymore." I just shook my head and walked away hoping the guy's glider was ok.
 
PaulS said:
I generally try to talk to kids when I see them checking out aircraft, and I have brought a few out to check out the airplane up close. But I was at a little air show this spring, talking to guy with a glider on display. A boy, about 4 or 5 walked up with his dad, the guy asked the dad if he wanted to put the kid in the glider, the dad said sure, lifted the kid into the glider, the kid grabs the stick, jams it forward back, side to side and around in a circle as fast and hard as he could. The guy told him to stop, then the dad says, "Now Johnny, I told you a few minutes ago in the other plane not to do that anymore." I just shook my head and walked away hoping the guy's glider was ok.
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That is a pet peeve of mine. Parents who let their kids get away with something - twice.
 
DFH65 said:
The guys from Airplane Repo never had a problem with no stinking fences. :rolleyes:
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It’s the magic of TV. Everything is easier when it’s staged...

:D
 
midwestpa24 said:
I am in favor of fences for many reasons.

1. Wildlife, which is the purpose of many airport fences. Prior to our local airport getting a fully enclosed wildlife fence, it was common to have a dozen deer lingering on the airfield every night. It took a plane hitting one to get the fence paid for. Since the fence, deer have been totally excluded. Very important to keep all accesses closed in order to keep the deer out.

2. It does deter the casual troublemaker/thief. Yes a fence won't stop anyone serious from getting in, but it does help prevent the crime of opportunity types that would vandalize, steal, or otherwise mess with things that they shouldn't. Some things may even be done innocently enough by someone without knowledge, but could cause damage or injury. Also keeps the area youths from taking over the runway as a drag strip. Nothing like being on short final when some hot rod whips out onto the runway in front of you.

I do however think it is important for the community to be invited to the airport in order to build interest in aviation. Open houses, fly-ins, tours, airshows all can help people get past the fence and gain interest. It is also important to have a means for transient pilots to get out and back in after hours if not attended 24/7. Our pedestrian gates have crash bars to get out, and the code to return on the inside.
Click to expand...

Very reasonable thoughts. I have never understood all of the absolutists in aviation and fences is one of those subjects where these folks exist on both sides. There are folks who’d make airports like concentration camps and there are people who want them to be like wide open plains. Neither approach is reasonable and neither is inherently good for the well-being of aviation.

I believe that most airports should be well fenced around 100% of their perimeters with “controlled” entry and exit points of varying levels of security and monitoring. I also think it’s great when there is a public viewing area for people to be able to watch planes takeoff and land and observe other airport activity. It does help to build interest as do hosted events.

I also believe that people who climb onto or into aircraft without the owner’s explicit permission should be severely beaten.
 
paflyer said:
I was gonna make a snide remark re you getting a taste of being locked up the wrong side of the fence, but thought better of it. ;)

KRME is my milk-run destination, daughter and grandkiddies live nearby. Always had decent service from Millionair, but never been there at off times. Tower's open until 2100. I personally wouldn't have waited two hours; and it's amazing that the place is deserted when it's closed. But it is Rome, NY...

I'd drop a line to the GM. That's just crazy.
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We DID get the Police officer to give us a ride to our hotel. That's one way to save on an Uber lol. I have to say it was funny being in the back of a cop car with a cop. Pulling up to the entrance of the hotel was interesting also. Some strange glances were thrown our way. I tried to snap a pic of us in the back of a cop car but it was damn dark back there. Lucky for us it was a brand new cop car so it hadn't yet smelled of rank stank ass. lol
 
Fences have a place in aviation,but I’m in favor of giving the public a area to view operations and aircraft.wheni was younger the big airports had observation decks.
 
KayDeeW said:
We DID get the Police officer to give us a ride to our hotel. That's one way to save on an Uber lol. I have to say it was funny being in the back of a cop car with a cop. Pulling up to the entrance of the hotel was interesting also. Some strange glances were thrown our way. I tried to snap a pic of us in the back of a cop car but it was damn dark back there. Lucky for us it was a brand new cop car so it hadn't yet smelled of rank stank ass. lol
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Too funny! And a belated welcome to Mrs Columbo!
 
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