Feedback on Reassembly/Operating/Training Costs for PA-28 180

[Brendon]

So my dad has a plane that he took apart about 8 years ago. Its a 1962 Piper Cherokee 180. I am looking to either get it put back together or just buy a different plane and use that one for spare parts. I will get a mechanic to look at it and let me know what he thinks. Whichever I decide I am then going to use it for IFR, Commercial, CFI, and CFII training. At the end of that I will either sell the airplane, or use it to train students with and therefore pass the average operating costs off to them.

Here are my Numbers:

Plane re-assembly (all inclusive): $15,000 (maybe $10,000)
Engine Overhaul (currently at 2100 hours): $20,000 (maybe $25,000)
Total: $35,000 (this is also what I would spend if I just bought a different airplane instead)

Operating Costs (assuming 250 hours total in one year):
Fuel: $5x9gph = $45
Hangar: $55 = $2.64
Insurance: $1200 = $4.80
Oil: $2
Fuel Fee (required to pump your own gas?): $150 = $0.60
Annual: $3000 = $12
Maintenance: $3750 = $15
Overhaul Fund: $25,000/2000hours = $12.50

Total per hour: $94.54


Training:
Instructor $60 an hour
IFR 30 hours, Commercial 50 hours, CFI 30 Hours, CFII 20 hours
Total 130 hours with instructor: $7,800

Multi-Engine for commercial 15 hours x ($250+$60) = $4,650

Solo Hours 120

Total Hours (not including multi because that wont be in my airplane obviously) 250
Operating costs 250x$95 = $23,750

Checkride Fees $600x4=$2400
Misc Training Costs $2,500

Total Cost for everything: $41,100
(if I did this renting a plane it would cost about $50,000 to $60,000)

Training + Aircraft Cost (this is how much I will save before starting this process) = $76,100

Like I said at this point I would either sell the aircraft for about $30,000 or use it for training students to build hours, charging them about $125-$150 per hour for the privilege (assuming increased maintenance costs and 100hr inspections).

If you do the math this would show me about breaking even but I think that is worth it for the freedom of my own airplane and I think the operating costs are very conservative, less conservative estimates would bring the per hour cost down to $75 which would make up about $5,000.

I know there is a risk of surprise maintenance issues but I figure since it will be very thoroughly gone through when it is put back together + a 0 hour engine surprises should be kept to a minimum. Regardless I added $2000 to the estimated annual and included $3,750 for surprise maintenance. The overhaul fund could also be dipped into if necessary for another $3,000 or so.

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Domenick]

What does "took apart" mean? How extensively did your father take it apart?
Was the engine stored properly, i.e., "pickled?"
Was the airframe stored in an enclosed space.

 

[Brendon]

It's stored outside on a trailer. I have no idea what he did with the engine but it wasn't removed or anything. But I figured it's probably going to need an overhaul very soon regardless so it wouldn't bother me too much if it needs an overhaul immediately.

I know it's not ideal. I figure $5k or so to actually put it together, the other $10k is for repairs. But a mechanic is going to take a look at it in a week or two to see if it's even worth the effort.

I'm sure when he took it apart it was with the guidance of an a & p mechanic so hopefully he took some precautionary measures but I really have no idea.

Here are some pictures from a couple of years ago.
http://imgur.com/gallery/hzrmdsX

 

[Bell206]

Thoughts? Opinions?

What's your anticipated time frame to reassemble/annual the aircraft... vs your time frame to obtain all your pilot ratings? And do you have $35K in cash on hand?

 

[Brendon]

What's your anticipated time frame to reassemble/annual the aircraft... vs your time frame to obtain all your pilot ratings? And do you have $35K in cash on hand?

Time frame for assembly 6-12 months.

Time frame for ratings less than 6 months if I can. But no more than 1 year.

Have $30k cash on hand before assembly is started. Which I will increase by another $30k-$40k over the course of a year while the airplane is being assembled.

 

[Magman]

My suggestion is to start with SB 505 on the Crankshaft ( Also an AD)

Easy to do but if bad can add as much as $8K (?) to your figures.

The good thing is the old ones generally come out ok.

They didn’t prevent the Cadmium Plating from covering the area then.

There seems no mention of Avionics?

Adequate and still functional?

I’ll guess it will take longer and cost more then the estimate.

Hope I’m Wong though.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Avionics upgrades like GPS and ADS-B are probably things you’ll need to consider as expenses, too.

 

[Bell206]

Time frame for assembly 6-12 months.

Have $30k cash on hand before assembly is started.

Definitely doable. Maybe see if your mechanic will allow some owner-assisted work to help save money. I would keep it disassembled until all the discrepancies are taken care of on each sub-assembly which will also give you the option of off-airport facilities to work in. I did most of my projects in this manner and would make wood work-aids to move things around. The paint will require some attention but I would stick to just touch ups and rejuvenate the the rest. There are some great products on the market that can make old paint look presentable. Bottom line, stick to your plan this is a trainer aircraft and don't lose sight of that. Most projects go south when the original plan's vision is lost. Once you finish your ratings, and the aircraft becomes your ride vs your trainer, then you can look to the bells/whistles, new paint, etc. Good luck.

 

[fasteddie]

Here are some pictures from a couple of years ago.
http://imgur.com/gallery/hzrmdsX

I'm certainly no expert, but dang, that looks rough.

Wouldn't it be easier to just go to a 141 school, or a college aviation program, using the GI Bill?

 

[Bacho]

I think it sounds like a viable option if you’re able and willing to do much of the work yourself. Otherwise it would take just the right mechanic. You will get quite bogged down looking for a little parts here or there and sourcing them. Remember you’ll be paying a mechanic 100 bucks an hour to be doing that.

 

[RyanB]

FWIW, the IA here recently removed the wings on a Dakota for shipment. It was a two man effort that took nearly a full work week, all said and done. It’s a lot of work.

Expect on average, 35hrs of labor to reinstall each wing, and that’s if you have the necessary parts and equipment to do so. The airplane pictured looks completely disassembled and in less than ideal shape, so you’re just about starting from ground up on nearly everything. It will be quite a laborious process to get it back into an airworthy condition. Not trying to throw a wet towel on the idea, just make sure you understand what you’re getting into.

 

[Brendon]

The avionics were fine before it was taken apart so as far as I know they should be fine now. It was IFR equipped.

It will need adsb but I think I can get away without GPS unless it doesn't cost that much (which I doubt).

Would it be better just to buy a 500-1000 hour Cherokee and use this one for parts?

Regardless of the plane assembly are my operating costs realistic?

 

[Bell206]

use this one for parts?

No. If you don't want this one sell it as a project aircraft lock stock and barrel as there is more value in it. Parting out an aircraft whether for your own use or to sell is not for the hobbyist. Once all the popular parts are used you are left with all the parts nobody wants and will probably have to pay someone to take it away.

 

[Brendon]

No. If you don't want this one sell it as a project aircraft lock stock and barrel as there is more value in it. Parting out an aircraft whether for your own use or to sell is not for the hobbyist. Once all the popular parts are used you are left with all the parts nobody wants and will probably have to pay someone to take it away.

I considered this but I didn't think there was much market. Not to mention issues with getting the plane to the buyer.

What do you think it would be worth? $10k?

Would it be better maybe to get it running sans overhaul (if possible) , fly for a few hours and sell it and buy something else vs just giving up on it entirely?

 

[Bacho]

Its not worth restoring unless you want to fly it yourself. Don't restore it just to flip.

 

[Brendon]

What do you think the plane would be worth after restoration and flying it for about 300 hours? I was originally thinking around $30k but after doing some research that seems low especially for a new engine.

 

[Bell206]

fly for a few hours and sell it and buy something else

would be worth after restoration and flying it for about 300 hours?

This is the slippery slope I mentioned above. Are you still looking for a trainer aircraft to complete your ratings or are you now looking for a "restoration" aircraft to invest in and future ROI?

just giving up on it entirely?

At a minimum, I would would take the time along with your mechanic and unload the trailer and review the aircraft, logbooks, and ownership documents. This will give you a good starting point and in my experience usually gives you an idea what route to take.

 

[Magman]

Anyone that’s been down this will likely agree that during the resto you are working cheap.

That applies to a potential buyer as well

I’ve had good luck with eBay on some projects.

Aircraft that had not seen daylight in 20 years

Selling for almost as much as one flying?

And then pay to disassemble and ship!

Maybe folks get carried away with the bidding?

If you follow Bells advice take some good pix

While it’s out in the open

Make it look shiny!!!

Gives you options.

Someone out there is looking for a

Winter Project.

 

[Brendon]

This is the slippery slope I mentioned above. Are you still looking for a trainer aircraft to complete your ratings or are you now looking for a "restoration" aircraft to invest in and future ROI?


At a minimum, I would would take the time along with your mechanic and unload the trailer and review the aircraft, logbooks, and ownership documents. This will give you a good starting point and in my experience usually gives you an idea what route to take.

If I get it put together and the engine overhauled I will at least use it for my training. After that it all depends on whether or not I think ownership is still a good idea. Also keeping in mind that I will transfer some of the costs of ownership onto the people I am instructing. After using it for instructing (a total of 1500 hours at that point) I will again make the decision whether to keep it or sell it knowing that it won't be making an income anymore (unless I do a leaseback or find a partneroor something) and I won't be making very much at the beginning of my career.


If I get it put back together and the engine isn't overhauled I will be most likely selling it at the end of my training, if it even gets that far.


If I really enjoy the plane, and think ownership is the right choice in the long run then I will spend more money on it, adding GPS, nicer avionics, new radios, redo the interior, better paint job stuff like that. But only if I am absolutely sure I am keeping it, and doing those things are the right choice. If I get it painted I'm also going to have to get a hangar which will be at least $210 a month vs $55 tie down outside. But none of this would be until after I finish my training at a minimum. I would probably put money aside from instructing to pay for these things.

Anyone that’s been down this will likely agree that during the resto you are working cheap.

That applies to a potential buyer as well

I’ve had good luck with eBay on some projects.

Aircraft that had not seen daylight in 20 years

Selling for almost as much as one flying?

And then pay to disassemble and ship!

Maybe folks get carried away with the bidding?

If you follow Bells advice take some good pix

While it’s out in the open

Make it look shiny!!!

Gives you options.

Someone out there is looking for a

Winter Project.

I assume you mean not cheap? Or are you saying I would be trying to spend as little as possible?

As for what I am willing to spend, I need it to be airworthy, safe and mostly dependable as I would like to take some longer cross countries with it. But for nice to haves, those can wait. I have a portable adsb/GPS receiver and foreflight that can improve my situational awareness & help with navigation until then (I know these are not primary, that's not what I am saying).

 

[Bell206]

After that it all depends on whether or not I think ownership is still a good idea.

I think this is a key point you should define a bit more for yourself before you spend your money. What date do you want to start your training?

 

[Magman]

My point was that doing some restos becomes a “labor of love”.

Lots of time goes into it.

ie Hoses Are you going to buy from the first name that pops up?

Call for best price?

Type c or d?

Now where would that turnbuckle barrel be hiding?

You definitely don’t want to be paying someone to do these.

Are you willing to do it?

If you have all parts laid out for the tasks of the day it would help.

Another viewpoint is if you wanted to get your A & P you

can log time spent toward qualifying via experience.

Not a bad idea to log Maint Time anyway.

Columbus took a chance!!

 

[Brendon]

I think this is a key point you should define a bit more for yourself before you spend your money. What date do you want to start your training?

Ideally as soon as possible. But I am willing to wait. I need to save more money anyways.

At the moment I think ownership is a good idea. At least for training.
Whether or not it is a good idea for using the plane for instructing will depend on the costs associated and regulations etc. If it is going to cost me more money to do that than if I just worked for a flight school and use their planes then I wouldn't bother.
After I get my ATP it largely depends on how much the airplane has cost me over the previous 1500 hours and whether or not I think that is sustainable with my low income starting as a regional airline first officer. If I haven't already found one, at this point if I really wanted to keep the plane I would look into a partner or partner(s). Or consider leasing it to a flying club or flight school. Because making $50k or less a year is not enough to afford an airplane I don't think.

But if I use it all the way to atp for 1500 hours I will have more than got my money out of it by that point. Assuming I am saving $60 an hour vs renting that is $90k saved. And most of those costs (1250 hours of which). Should be mostly covered by someone else when I am using it for flight training, or whatever else I can make money doing (aerial photography etc).


If I did most of the work myself with some A&P guidance, how difficult would it be to get them to sign off on the work? I see this as a big hurdle.
I would consider getting my own A&P if it would be worth it, but I would only keep up with it until I get my atp. At that point I'm not sure it would be worth continuing with unless I use it to make some money on the side. How hard is it to get?

I have no idea how engine overhauls work, I always assumed I would send it off somewhere with a large check and they would send it back shiny and new. Would I be able to do this myself if I had an A&P as well?

 

[murphey]

Be aware that you may not be able to complete the Commercial or the CFI if the cherokee is not placarded for certain maneuvers, including spins. This means you'll need to rent another airplane. Then there's the issue of complex vs TAA for the commercial, which may mean renting another airplane - again.

As for getting the A&P? The rules & process are defined on the FAA website under https://www.faa.gov/mechanics/become

 

[Brendon]

Be aware that you may not be able to complete the Commercial or the CFI if the cherokee is not placarded for certain maneuvers, including spins. This means you'll need to rent another airplane. Then there's the issue of complex vs TAA for the commercial, which may mean renting another airplane - again.

As for getting the A&P? The rules & process are defined on the FAA website under https://www.faa.gov/mechanics/become

I am aware. I factored in the cost of renting a multi engine for 15 hours (minimum is 10). For my commercial with multi engine addon.

As for the spin training a flight school in my area offers a program for it for $250. Which is not a cost I factored in, but could be taken out of the $2500 misc training costs I accounted for.

 

[Bell206]

Ideally as soon as possible.

After I get my ATP

my low income starting as a regional airline first officer.

And the plot thickens. You'll be money ahead and in the cockpit quicker on your goal to be a professional pilot if you rent/purchase flyable aircraft during training. While you're thought process is good, from a practical point if your plan is fly heavy iron as a job vs fly casually as hobbyist, taking on your dad's project should be a separate discussion once you're in a right seat somewhere. By taking the project route you could easily delay your training by over a year....

I would consider getting my own A&P if it would be worth it, but I would only keep up with it until I get my atp.

Not the reason to get it at this point as you're looking at 2 years and $10k-$15k via the CC route. And it wont help you with your dad's plane without experience and tooling.

 

[Brendon]

And the plot thickens. You'll be money ahead and in the cockpit quicker on your goal to be a professional pilot if you rent/purchase flyable aircraft during training. While you're thought process is good, from a practical point if your plan is fly heavy iron as a job vs fly casually as hobbyist, taking on your dad's project should be a separate discussion once you're in a right seat somewhere. By taking the project route you could easily delay your training by over a year....

Not the reason to get it at this point as you're looking at 2 years and $10k-$15k via the CC route. And it wont help you with your dad's plane without experience and tooling.

Well I am OK waiting a year. I need to save more money anyways. I just don't want to wait much more than that. But I don't have a set date where I have to start training, I'm flexible but sooner is better that's what I meant.

 

[Bell206]

Well I am OK waiting a year. I need to save more money anyways. I just don't want to wait much more than that. But I don't have a set date where I have to start training, I'm flexible but sooner is better that's what I meant.

As I mentioned before... stick with the original plan... which now seems to be obtaining an ATP and fly professionally. From a maintenance standpoint, your project aircraft is full of variables that can and most probably will deter your original plan to the point where your savings and timeframe may not be realized. Perhaps the question to ask on PoA is how to save money on training aircraft costs up through to an ATP because starting with a non-flying project aircraft will not provide those results... in my humble opinion.

 

[Brendon]

As I mentioned before... stick with the original plan... which now seems to be obtaining an ATP and fly professionally. From a maintenance standpoint, your project aircraft is full of variables that can and most probably will deter your original plan to the point where your savings and timeframe may not be realized. Perhaps the question to ask on PoA is how to save money on training aircraft costs up through to an ATP because starting with a non-flying project aircraft will not provide those results... in my humble opinion.

Well I have other options I considered. I'll list them below.

Partner with someone for an airplane they already have, or buy one together:
This is fantastic, but I can't depend on this as I don't know anyone that would be willing to do this and in these uncertain times of covid it might be hard to find someone. But if I could, this is a great option.

Join a flying club:
This would be a good option if it was available, but only one is available and it is over an hour away. They also have only one airplane and fairly high fees.
There are other flying clubs but they are 1.5-2hrs away +. This is problematic when I plan on flying 5-6 days a week. And gas costs would be a legitimate cost I would need to account for.

Find a part 61 school with competitive rates and rent their aircraft :
This is a good option. I could probably get it done for $50k but might cost as much as $55k.

My main problem with this is if I went with my plan of getting my own plane rebuilt and sold it at the end of my training my costs would be $40k-$45k depending on the value of the plane. If I could sell it for closer to $50k that would go down to $25k. And this isn't even considering the fact that when working as a cfi I could charge more to train people in my own aircraft than I would working for someone else in their plane. Potentially making back the cost of the aircraft several times over by the time I get to 1500 hours. But it's a risk. I just need to make it a calculated risk which is why I am here.

Part 141 School: This is the most safe option, but also the most expensive. Would cost $55-$65k. Significantly more than other options, especially my own airplane assuming everything goes to plan.

Join civil air patrol:
I don't know much about this, but I suspect it would take a lot of time, and a lot of effort beyond my training to benefit the organization.

Military:
It's a whole thing, don't really feel like getting into it right now. But no. Not happening. (not that I don't want to serve my country, in fact I am currently in the Air Force and getting out next year, at which point I will get a civilian job in my career field to save more money). Don't get me started on the gi bill. It's a whole thing.

Anything else I haven't thought of?

 

[Bell206]

if I went with my plan of getting my own plane rebuilt and sold it at the end of my training my costs would be $40k-$45k depending on the value of the plane.

But it's a risk. I just need to make it a calculated risk which is why I am here.

That's provided getting your plane flyable doesn't cost $75k+.

But cut your risk of not getting better replies by creating a new thread in the Training Forum with your ideas listed in your last post here. Otherwise it might drown in the oil and grease of the Maintenance Bay.... Good luck.

 

[murphey]

Joining CAP will not benefit your long range plans.

 

[Brendon]

That's provided getting your plane flyable doesn't cost $75k+.

But cut your risk of not getting better replies by creating a new thread in the Training Forum with your ideas listed in your last post here. Otherwise it might drown in the oil and grease of the Maintenance Bay.... Good luck.

Will do, no one has answered this question yet.

Are my operating costs realistic? The hanger price is very low but that is the actual cost of tie down at my local airport.

 

[Bell206]

Are my operating costs realistic?

Realistic, sure. But accurate at $94.54/hr for your specific situation I couldn't tell. Simply parking your aircraft outside vs in a hangar can change the mx side enough to swing your costs up. Better to approach other owners in the same area, with similar situations, and see if they'll share some numbers to verify your numbers.

 

[bflynn]

Nobody knows if your costs are reasonable because we don't know what lies beneath. Sure the numbers sound good, but what's the risk? Engine issues and corrosion are two that jump to mind that would be show stoppers and very expensive to fix.

Do you have the log books?

I'm a fair wrench, but I would sell this as a project, 10-15k sounds reasonable. Use that cash as a down payment on something simple for VFR and IFR training, then trade up to a twin.

If you're interested in restoring an airplane, then restore it. If you want to fly, then fly. You don't have time to do both with your goal.

 

[Brendon]

New plan:
I'll just go to a local fbo and instructor and pay as I go. Spending only as much money as I am making, which would come out to about 5 hours a month so I would be done in 10 months. That way my training is still done in a timely manner and I am not dipping into the $30k at all.
Simultaneously I'll have the plane put back together with that $30k with the plan to have it finished by the time I finish my training. If it ends up costing more than expected no big deal. I just put it on hold until I have more funds with training being the priority. Once I finish training I will get a job as a flight instructor somewhere doing both that and my previous job (working less hours) until the plane is finished. At this point I transition over to flight instructing with my own plane/ just use it for personal time building.
Once I get my atp same as before I will either keep it or sell it. Ideally making back at least what I spent on it.

This way I get my training done in a timely manner, don't have to depend on my own plane for very much but will still get to use it a lot. Assuming it's done by the time I get to 500 hours that's still another 1000 hours I will put into it. But if it can't do it, no problem I go back to what I was doing before and cut my losses selling the plane for what I can get for it. Maybe I could find a partner by the time the plane is ready to split costs.
This way I will spend approximately $5k-$10k more. But I can just work longer at my job that makes more money than instructing to make up the difference. And once I am in the right financial position I can leave that job and put 100% of my time into flying.
It will be a lot of work for sure but I don't mind. I'm willing to put in the work as long as it's getting me somewhere.

Thoughts?

 

[3393RP]

Your plan is extremely ambitious and complicated. I would sell the plane and use the proceeds along with your $30K and buy something that flies. Assembling an airplane that's been in a trailer for a decade is not something for the inexperienced.

There will be a milk crate full of bolts and nuts. Each fastener is a specific grade and length, and depending on where it's installed, it could have one of three different types of nuts, and assembled with or without a washer.

There are similar complexities throughout the airframe.

I admire your enthusiasm, but taking your basket case through a PPL, instrument, commercial, CFI, and ATP rating (with 15 hours of rental multi time), logging 1,500 hours, and teaching students is a mighty task for a sixty year old Cherokee that's been disassembled since you were in middle school.

Your penciled out estimate to reassemble the airplane and rebuild the engine is about one half of what it will actually cost. This will be contested by other posters, but I think it's accurate. Obviously that's far more than the airplane will be worth when reassembled.

You will need a hangar to work on the plane from day one. You will probably incur at least 160 hours of mechanic time at $80-$100/hr. You forgot things like paying an avionics tech, new antenna wiring, IFR certification, propeller rebuild, magnetos, alternator, ignition harness and miscellaneous wiring, brakes, corrosion repair, and stuff as mundane as new tires and tubes.

 

[Magman]

After re reading your first post I think there is an issue.

The $1200 figure for insurance seems right for your personal use ONLY.

However; my guess is if you wish to rent out the aircraft the figure will be closer

to $5000.

I’m not big on single aircraft commercial operations and some of the feds feel

the same.

You may also want to consider a Corporation.

 

[Brendon]

After re reading your first post I think there is an issue.

The $1200 figure for insurance seems right for your personal use ONLY.

However; my guess is if you wish to rent out the aircraft the figure will be closer

to $5000.

I’m not big on single aircraft commercial operations and some of the feds feel

the same.

You may also want to consider a Corporation.

That is because those calculations were for personal use only. When I use it for commercial operations I will recalculate operating costs and charge people accordingly.

 

[Bell206]

Simultaneously I'll have the plane put back together with that $30k with the plan to have it finished by the time I finish my training.

FWIW: If I was your mechanic this is what I would recommend: 1) Find a non-airport storage/work facility that will allow you to lay out all sub-assemblies; 2) Unload and clean all aircraft sub-assemblies (L/H wing, R/H wing, fuselage, etc.); 3) Review and inventory each sub-assembly thoroughly; 4) Develop your project plan/cost with your mechanic…. or repack it for a later time... or prep it for sale. By the time you get done with #3 you should have a rating or two or three.

 

[Domenick]

Sometimes we all need a smack upside the head. Here's yours.

The plane will be a frustrating, worrisome, expensive, delaying distraction from your future plans. If you are in some way emotionally attached to the plane, get over it. The plane has NOTHING to do with your IFR, Commercial, CFI, and CFII training plans. Sell it to someone who knows what they are doing and wants a complex, long-term, expensive project. Include the trailer, as that is how they will transport it. Any buyer will be willing to drive from anywhere in the states to pick it up.

Take the cash you have saved and the cash from the sale and buy a basic trainer.

Get on with your life.

 

[Brendon]

Sometimes we all need a smack upside the head. Here's yours.

The plane will be a frustrating, worrisome, expensive, delaying distraction from your future plans. If you are in some way emotionally attached to the plane, get over it. The plane has NOTHING to do with your IFR, Commercial, CFI, and CFII training plans. Sell it to someone who knows what they are doing and wants a complex, long-term, expensive project. Include the trailer, as that is how they will transport it. Any buyer will be willing to drive from anywhere in the states to pick it up.

Take the cash you have saved and the cash from the sale and buy a basic trainer.

Get on with your life.

When you say basic trainer, do you mean something like an IFR equipped Cessna 150? Or just VFR? I don't really know if vfr only would really be worth it unless it is significantly cheaper.