Fee for Discontinuance

[DesertNomad]

I am getting ready for my Commercial check ride and the exam fee is $600, but if it ends with a discontinuance, the fee to finish up is $250. How common is this?

I think it encourages people to fly in poor conditions. I have talked to the DPE and he is firm on this. This is another DPE in the area but he is scheduled out 3-4 months so I didn't bother checking as to what his policy is.

The weather this time of year is rather hard to predict here. Some days are great and others are simply not flyable.

 

[schmookeeg]

Rude if it's for weather.

I don't have a problem if it's for maintenance.. it's not great, but it encourages people not to bring flying jalopies to checkrides, so I can see the other side. Trouble is, it punishes a student who doesn't really know better yet.

I had never heard of fee for discontinuance before. I hope it's not common. :/

 

[pdonahue]

Are you saying that it's $600 for the first day/session that the examiner is with you and if there's a discontinuance then it's $250 for the second day? Or that it's $600 for the first day if you pass and $850 if there's a discontinuance (and then how much is the second day)?

 

[DesertNomad]

Are you saying that it's $600 for the first day/session that the examiner is with you and if there's a discontinuance then it's $250 for the second day? Or that it's $600 for the first day if you pass and $850 if there's a discontinuance (and then how much is the second day)?

$600 for the first day, $250 if you have to come back for any reason (failure, discontinuance - mechanical, weather or anything).

 

[dmspilot]

Normal where I'm from.

 

[Brad Z]

I am getting ready for my Commercial check ride and the exam fee is $600, but if it ends with a discontinuance, the fee to finish up is $250. How common is this?

I think it encourages people to fly in poor conditions. I have talked to the DPE and he is firm on this. This is another DPE in the area but he is scheduled out 3-4 months so I didn't bother checking as to what his policy is.

The weather this time of year is rather hard to predict here. Some days are great and others are simply not flyable.

Alternatively, the policy seems to encourage people to cancel practical tests if the issue of weather is a question at all. My experience with DPEs is that they only charge a discontinuance fee when it's not related to an act of God, i.e. weather, someone crashes into the plane and it blows up into little pieces, etc. If the weather is forecast to be iffy, often DPEs prefer to keep the appointment and get the ground portion of the practical out of the way and see how the applicant makes a real-world go/no-go decision. This varies from designee to designee based on their personal scheduling, proximity to the airport, etc.

 

[Clip4]

That policy does not seem unreasonable and as practical test prices go $600 is on the lower end.

 

[TWD87]

Had a discontinuance for weather recently on a instrument checkride, there was no additional charge to finish up.

 

[BrianNC]

I failed my first commercial check ride and went back to do what I messed up and no additional fee.

 

[TommyG]

Pilots are a huge cash flow for DPEs. The rates they are charging are insane, and they can do 3 rides a day. Even better that they only take cash. And they all do talk to each other, so if one starts charging for a discontinuance all the other will as well. It’s like the mafia, and they have people by that balls. I really need to get on the DPE bandwagon.

 

[Lindberg]

Rude if it's for weather.

I don't have a problem if it's for maintenance.. it's not great, but it encourages people not to bring flying jalopies to checkrides, so I can see the other side. Trouble is, it punishes a student who doesn't really know better yet.

I had never heard of fee for discontinuance before. I hope it's not common. :/

100% common here.

A discontinuance is when you start a check ride and choose not to finish it. If the weather is so unpredictable that when you start the oral you don't know what it will be an hour later, have a conversation with the DPE, and maybe just postpone. If the weather's bad, then I don't think you're even allowed to start the oral knowing you won't fly. At least the DPEs I know generally won't.

 

[Kritchlow]

It depends. If you opt out for a 15kt crosswind, charge away. There are certain weather issues a commercial pilot should be able to handle.
On the flip side, if the weather is truly brutal, than a CP applicant should have the decision skills to make the call without being penalized.

 

[schmookeeg]

100% common here.

A discontinuance is when you start a check ride and choose not to finish it. If the weather is so unpredictable that when you start the oral you don't know what it will be an hour later, have a conversation with the DPE, and maybe just postpone. If the weather's bad, then I don't think you're even allowed to start the oral knowing you won't fly. At least the DPEs I know generally won't.

Oh, strange, "let's at least get the oral over with" is a strategy I'm familiar with for bad checkride weather. Must be a regional thing.

 

[Lindberg]

Oh, strange, "let's at least get the oral over with" is a strategy I'm familiar with for bad checkride weather. Must be a regional thing.

It's prohibited absent authorization from FSDO. Maybe your local FSDO gives authorization.

 

[Lindberg]

Pilots are a huge cash flow for DPEs. The rates they are charging are insane, and they can do 3 rides a day. Even better that they only take cash. And they all do talk to each other, so if one starts charging for a discontinuance all the other will as well. It’s like the mafia, and they have people by that balls. I really need to get on the DPE bandwagon.

They're generally only permitted to schedule 2 rides per day.

 

[RussR]

They're generally only permitted to schedule 2 rides per day.

No longer true as of 10/2/18, from FAA N 8900.485:

 

[jsstevens]

When I took my private check ride (2006) I failed. The DPE charged 1/2 fee for the retest. ($300 for test, $150 for retest). It seemed reasonable to me. Weather scrub would have been different if I recall correctly. The Instrument ride I took last weekend was $500 and the DPE mentioned in conversation that he didn’t charge for a retest but he was considering upping his fee because he felt like folks were starting to take advantage. He also mentioned scheduling 3 per 24 hours and that if you showed up unprepared (missing logs, paperwork, IACRA, etc.) you got 1/2 hour to fix it and then he moved on and you reschedule so he wasn’t penalizing the next ride.

 

[RussR]

Even better that they only take cash.

As an instructor, I take whatever kind of payment method the student wants to use. But if I was an examiner, this risk is much higher because likely I'm only seeing that person that one time. Take a check? How do I know there's sufficient funds in the account? Credit Card? What is my recourse if they fail and then dispute the charges (or, I suppose, dispute the charges even if they pass)? I imagine most examiners have been burned at least once.

Cash, on the other hand, is safe. So imagine I would only take cash or Venmo/Cash App/Apple Pay-like payments. And even for Venmo/etc, I'd have to research the "charge-back" or "dispute" policies from the standpoint of the merchant.

 

[Deelee]

Cash, on the other hand, is safe.

That is how it has been done for my checkrides. Crisp 100s put in a white envelope with no markings. Either slid across the table nonchalant-ly or stuck to a piece of gum under the table.

Either case, there was no fee for weather discontinuance (never had to exercise that option). DPEs made it clear that I was PIC and decision was mine.

 

[Brad Z]

As an instructor, I take whatever kind of payment method the student wants to use. But if I was an examiner, this risk is much higher because likely I'm only seeing that person that one time. Take a check? How do I know there's sufficient funds in the account? Credit Card? What is my recourse if they fail and then dispute the charges (or, I suppose, dispute the charges even if they pass)? I imagine most examiners have been burned at least once.

Cash, on the other hand, is safe. So imagine I would only take cash or Venmo/Cash App/Apple Pay-like payments. And even for Venmo/etc, I'd have to research the "charge-back" or "dispute" policies from the standpoint of the merchant.

Agreed, DPEs accept only cash for pretty much the same reason that tow truck drivers and impound lots only accept cash...anyone who failed would be incentivized to stop payment on a check or issue chargeback on a credit card. DPEs don't want to spend their time making collection calls so cash will continue to be the payment of choice.

It's funny that people think it's shady that they accept only cash, as though they're not reporting it. It would be very easy to audit IACRA to determine how many examinations a DPE is doing every year. It ain't like they're selling pizzas cash only.

 

[Clip4]

Pilots are a huge cash flow for DPEs. The rates they are charging are insane, and they can do 3 rides a day. Even better that they only take cash. And they all do talk to each other, so if one starts charging for a discontinuance all the other will as well. It’s like the mafia, and they have people by that balls. I really need to get on the DPE bandwagon.

What DPE can you name for us that makes a living solely from his duties as a DPE? Which DPE can you name for us who is doing 3 check rides a day?

 

[RussR]

What DPE can you name for us that makes a living solely from his duties as a DPE? Which DPE can you name for us who is doing 3 check rides a day?

I can name one. I've used him many times. Not always the 3 checkrides per day, but he virtually always has 2.

 

[TommyG]

What DPE can you name for us that makes a living solely from his duties as a DPE? Which DPE can you name for us who is doing 3 check rides a day?

Seriously? The DPEs on Long Island are busy all day every day. Nationwide why do you think checkrides are booked out months in advance. What is it you have doubts about?

 

[David Megginson]

I am getting ready for my Commercial check ride and the exam fee is $600, but if it ends with a discontinuance, the fee to finish up is $250. How common is this?

I think it encourages people to fly in poor conditions. I have talked to the DPE and he is firm on this. This is another DPE in the area but he is scheduled out 3-4 months so I didn't bother checking as to what his policy is.

The weather this time of year is rather hard to predict here. Some days are great and others are simply not flyable.

I had a discontinuance once in a biennial IFR flight test (before Canada started calling it an "IPC") due to equipment problems, and I don't think I was charged then.

One other time I had to redo one exercise in the biennial IFR test because I busted an altitude, and I don't remember if I paid extra that time or not.

Do remember that the designated examiners aren't exactly getting rich off this, so it's tough on them if they end up working lots of extra hours unpaid.

 

[172andyou]

Very common policy. Mine had that also. Honestly, not sure what the beef is. My doctor charges me for every visit also. So does my lawyer. Fee for service...

 

[TommyG]

Very common policy. Mine had that also. Honestly, not sure what the beef is. My doctor charges me for every visit also. So does my lawyer. Fee for service...

There is a difference if the day of the checkride wx goes south and get charged the full fee, and then come back when wx is nice and pay again compared to doing the checkride and failing where the DPE charges full price. Good DPEs give a reduced rate on the re test.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Becoming a DPE is like getting a license to print money.

 

[Lindberg]

Agreed, DPEs accept only cash for pretty much the same reason that tow truck drivers and impound lots only accept cash...anyone who failed would be incentivized to stop payment on a check or issue chargeback on a credit card. DPEs don't want to spend their time making collection calls so cash will continue to be the payment of choice.

It's funny that people think it's shady that they accept only cash, as though they're not reporting it. It would be very easy to audit IACRA to determine how many examinations a DPE is doing every year. It ain't like they're selling pizzas cash only.

Many years ago, I paid for both my PP checkrides with checks (to two different examiners), and it wouldn't have occurred to me to stop payment on either of them. But people and times are different now. Also, my instructor would have kicked my ass.....

 

[danhagan]

It depends. If you opt out for a 15kt crosswind, charge away. There are certain weather issues a commercial pilot should be able to handle.
On the flip side, if the weather is truly brutal, than a CP applicant should have the decision skills to make the call without being penalized.

I've only done the PPL. Crosswinds were WAY above the "limit" for the C-152. He was clicking the "super AWOS" while asking questions until he heard a number he was happy with ... and that was the lowest direct crosswind for all the landing tests. We're in a high wind area, so he indicated towards the end that he expected I'd do fine in high wind. This was 15 years ago ...

 

[MauleSkinner]

Becoming a DPE is like getting a license to print money.

Yup...almost as much as you can make flying for somebody else, as long as you don’t consider in benefits.

 

[schmookeeg]

Considering the bulk of a DPE's work is initial private, often foreign, and ham-fisted n00bs torturing skyhawks and warriors while you ride along trying to anticipate your mutual death by aviation misdeed... I think they earn every cent of their fee and I wouldn't want to touch DPEing myself.

 

[Brad Z]

Becoming a DPE is like getting a license to print money.

That's like saying becoming a dentist is like getting a license to print money.

 

[TommyG]

It seems like a killer cashflow, but there are plenty of other flying jobs that pay better for less work.

LEt's do the math:

They can do three rides a day at $600 a piece. Between travel to/from, prebrief, ground portion, flight portion, debrief/paperwork, that's easily 5 hours. Three full rides is a 15 hour day, beginning at 0600 and wrapping up at 2100. That's only really feasible during the longest days of the summer, so in reality it's more like 2.5 rides a day, assuming the third is wrapping up a previous discontinuance. More realistic is a busy DPE scheduling 12 full rides or the equivalent. Depending on where you live, weather will knock out about a quarter.

3750

I'm sure there are probably DPEs that take PayPal out there. But with international students it's not uncommon for for someone to train right up to the check ride, fail, and then have to go home because their visa was expiring. Often in those cases I suspect the instructors probably (either consciously or unconsciously) pushed them through to get the training done before they timed out, leading to a setup for failure.

Not sure where you come up with 5 hours per ride. Average PPL is from showing up to finish is 2 1/2 to 3, some longer some shorter. Around here the DPEs live wihin a 20 minute drive to the airport. There is not much to before or after the ride. If they are already at the airport, 1 ride at 8 Am, one at 12, one at 1600. And lets remember $700/hr cash is like $1000 on the books.

So lets give your 2.5 rides per day @ $700 a ride = $1750 and only 3 days a week to work factoring weather = $5250 X 45 Weeks (Some vacation time in there) = 236,250. All Cash!!! Now whether they claim 100% of it at tax time or not is between them and the IRS.

But like you said locality is a factor. Florida, Arizona, you know these guys are killing it, Up here in NY those number of rides are fairly accurate. I know all the DPEs around here, so I know exactly what the job entails and how much they put in before and after a checkride.

So not sure how many flying jobs are better paying for less work, you don't get much easier than that.

 

[David Megginson]

Becoming a DPE is like getting a license to print money.

Not all, but many owner-pilots work professions where we earn $100–250+/hour, not just a few times/week doing a checkride, but every day, day after day. Coming from us collectively, accusing DPEs of "printing money" for giving a few checkrides every week can sound a bit narcissistic.

 

[kayoh190]

Considering the bulk of a DPE's work is initial private, often foreign, and ham-fisted n00bs torturing skyhawks and warriors while you ride along trying to anticipate your mutual death by aviation misdeed... I think they earn every cent of their fee and I wouldn't want to touch DPEing myself.

Yeah I agree - doesn't seem like it'd be an easy job to me. At least not if you're out humping the puppy mills to maximize your income. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[David Megginson]

Yeah I agree - doesn't seem like it'd be an easy job to me. At least not if you're out humping the puppy mills to maximize your income. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

And you guys pay a lot! A typical checkride for me is <CA $300 in the Ottawa area in my own plane. The DPEs earn it, of course, but is US $700/ride (almost CA $1,000/ride) the average in the US, or is someone citing the highest fee they've heard of?

 

[kayoh190]

And you guys pay a lot! A typical checkride for me is <CA $300 in the Ottawa area in my own plane. The DPEs earn it, of course, but is US $700/ride (almost CA $1,000/ride) the average in the US, or is someone citing the highest fee they've heard of?

I'll have to defer to others for that. The last DPE I paid was for my SES a couple years ago, and it was $350 (in Minnesota). My prior stuff was so long ago (late 90s/early 2000s) that it's not really relevant anymore.

 

[schmookeeg]

And you guys pay a lot! A typical checkride for me is <CA $300 in the Ottawa area in my own plane. The DPEs earn it, of course, but is US $700/ride (almost CA $1,000/ride) the average in the US, or is someone citing the highest fee they've heard of?

That's about right in my locality. And examiners are in short supply. The last student I sent up (CMEL initial) was $600 USD from a podunk examiner 200nm east of town, so he was un-busy.

I paid $1,000 USD for my CFI initial in 2010. I imagine that's more nowadays too. Supply and demand, hey?

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Not all, but many owner-pilots work professions where we earn $100–250+/hour, not just a few times/week doing a checkride, but every day, day after day. Coming from us collectively, accusing DPEs of "printing money" for giving a few checkrides every week can sound a bit narcissistic.

I'm not a member of that us group and likely never will be.

 

[TCABM]

Lots of good, anecdotal tales here. I know for a fact our region doesn’t have any “full time” DPEs. Most of them have some type of flexible schedule that allows freedom to do two jobs. For example, one DPE flies air ambulance week on/week off. Incan’t think of a single DPE that does more than 1.5 rides per day and even the busiest aren’t capable of doing more than about 10 or 15 rides per month, so there’s a backlog of checkrides waiting to happen.

Generally, a PPL or IRA check is planned for half a day oral/practical while Commercial and CFI are day long events. That, combined with no “full-timers” is why our DPEs would love to have more in our region or have more 141 operations with exam authority delegated for the initial PPL.