Fear of paperwork

[Pi1otguy]

The pilot smells oil and is losing power but at 1:14 hesitates to declare because "there's a lot of paperwork". Besides that he did a great job.

I mean, I can totally understand the fear of paperwork. A lot of federal papers carry a very real danger, financial or otherwise.

I wonder if "the paperwork" is something all CFIs should add to the curriculum?

 

[midlifeflyer]

The only time I've seen significant pilot paperwork from an emergency was a time a pilot did not declare an emergency. Failure to declare meant the pilot did not give ATC a chance to clear traffic away, resulting in a loss of IFR separation and enforcement action. I've declared 3 times. The biggest repercussion was a pleasant talk with a friendly ASI. It's time for this myth to die.

 

[RyanB]

It's time for this myth to die.

Yeah it’s pretty ridiculous. I agree.

 

[Daleandee]

I've never had to declare but was in the right seat when my pilot friend did. All ended well after a few statements were taken ...

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I was a low time student pilot in a trainer doing my XC night flight when we lost 50% of our manifold pressure on takeoff at about 500' high. I almost reflexively declared an emergency with tower after we didn't get our power back after ~5 seconds. The CFI as PIC wouldn't allow an emergency declaration because he didn't want that on his record on his way to the airlines. He flew the pattern at 500' high and landed. He was a good CFI otherwise, but back then I thought that was foolish and still do.

 

[RangeRider]

Declared climbing out of El Paso a few years back, cockpit filled with smoke. Got things situated a bit and made a good landing. Got a phone call a few weeks later from a very nice FAA representative, a few questions and all was over. Never filled out any paper work, did change my drawers.

 

[Daleandee]

Got a phone call a few weeks later from a very nice FAA representative, a few questions and all was over.

I think the toughest question was from the controller asking ... "how many bodies are we looking for and how big will the fire be?" OK ... he used a different phrase along the lines of, "how many souls on board and how much fuel" but I heard it differently!

 

[Jim K]

I've declared twice. The first time the FSDO wanted copies of my last annual, last maintenance entry, pilot certificate, last flight review, medical, as well as a written narrative. They were very pleasant, and finding nothing wrong in the info I submitted, thanked me for my time and that was that. Saying that there's no hassle though is not necessarily true. I was also met by the local fire department and police after landing, who also both wanted my information.

The second time, I received a call from the FSDO asking about what happened, but he didn't request any information.

I also once failed to get three greens. We asked the tower to verify if the gear was down, which it appeared to be. I didn't actually declare an emergency, but they did roll the crash truck just in case it wasn't actually locked. The FD wanted some stuff for their report like my certificate number. Never heard anything from the FAA on that one.

 

[BMan]

As a new student pilot (world's lowest time tail dragger student at .8 hrs), I wondered that, if there's a 50/50 chance it's an emergency, is it better to declare and then be "wrong" or not declare and find out that I should have declared after the fact? Not having asked my CFI about this yet, my gut reaction would to err on safety (for those beyond my aircraft) and declare in that situation or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

 

[2-Bit Speed]

As a new student pilot (world's lowest time tail dragger student at .8 hrs), I wondered that, if there's a 50/50 chance it's an emergency, is it better to declare and then be "wrong" or not declare and find out that I should have declared after the fact? Not having asked my CFI about this yet, my gut reaction would to err on safety (for those beyond my aircraft) and declare in that situation or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

I (not a pilot) have seen too many accident reports that were fatal partly because the PIC never declared an emergency or declared too late. Please don't be scared of declaring an emergency.

 

[mandm]

This is a challenging topic, when it’s a real emergency you probably don’t have time to declare. When something happened but you still have control of the aircraft, you might have instincts to fix the issue or figure out what’s going on first.

As a newer pilot, a small issue might feel like an emergency but it isn’t, such as a popped open door in flight. Or your landing gear 3 gear is acting funny (which I think they do depending upon the wind and your AOA).

Then if weather is changing for the worse and you want to divert, you’d feel like you want to land, is this an emergency?

Or you might not be in communication with ATC during your flight, would you want to randomly talk on 121.5? Previously I was flying and was out of radio contact with no ADSB weather updates but I did see commercial airline traffic high above on foreflight. I wanted to ask if they had updated weather at my destination airport but I wasn’t sure if I could do that on 121.5?

These are things you aren’t really taught when learning to fly.

 

[Palmpilot]

This is a challenging topic, when it’s a real emergency you probably don’t have time to declare....

On my total-power-loss event, I didn't have time to NOT declare!

The situation was that the engine quit producing power while climbing out of downwind on departure from a towered field. After trying carb heat with no result, it became clear that I was in the perfect setup for a safe emergency landing, so I made a mayday call because I didn't want ANYTHING to screw that up!

As for agonizing over whether a situation is serious enough to warrant an emergency declaration, I don't have time for that either. The Pilot/Controller Glossary defines an emergency as either a distress or urgency condition, and under the definition of the latter, it's enough to be merely concerned about safety.

P.S., to the thread topic, I didn't even get a phone call, let alone any paperwork. I did file an ASRS report.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Remember.....paperwork keeps your plane safe.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is a challenging topic, when it’s a real emergency you probably don’t have time to declare. When something happened but you still have control of the aircraft, you might have instincts to fix the issue or figure out what’s going on first.

As a newer pilot, a small issue might feel like an emergency but it isn’t, such as a popped open door in flight. Or your landing gear 3 gear is acting funny (which I think they do depending upon the wind and your AOA).

Then if weather is changing for the worse and you want to divert, you’d feel like you want to land, is this an emergency?

Or you might not be in communication with ATC during your flight, would you want to randomly talk on 121.5? Previously I was flying and was out of radio contact with no ADSB weather updates but I did see commercial airline traffic high above on foreflight. I wanted to ask if they had updated weather at my destination airport but I wasn’t sure if I could do that on 121.5?

These are things you aren’t really taught when learning to fly.

It's all about the priority among "aviate-navigate-communicate." In many you have plenty of time to declare. Take that engine failure you practice ad nauseum during training. Yeah, if it takes place at very low altitude, there's not much time to do anything other than aviate. But it doesn't take much altitude or time to get to best glide, aim for a landing place, and stabilize. You've now covered aviate and navigate. It's just a few seconds to communicate.

Do not think in terms of "oh I feel it's an emergency but it's only because I'm, inexperienced." If it feels like an emergency, it is one. Period. Thinking otherwise is buying into the paperwork nonsense. Or worse - the ego of "I'd rather die than be mildly embarrassed".

I've had three partial loss of power emergencies, all involving an inability to hold altitute. I was coming down...
(1) Loss of power on takeoff at a towered airport (about 100 AGL with runway in front of me).
(2) Loss of power shortly after takeoff from a towered airport.
(3) Loss of power over the Rocky Mountains while IFR in the clouds.

What I did:
(1) Landed on the remaining runway. Told ATC what was going on while I was rolling to a stop. All aviate. No navigate. No communicate.
(2) Best glide (aviate). Began turning back to the airport (navigate) "Tower. Cessna 12345 loss of power. Returning to the airport. Emergency" (communicate). ATC's response was to cler me to land any runway and keep other traffic away from me. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not be coming nose to nose with a departing jet by keeping silent.
(3) Best glide and some basic troubleshoooting (aviate). Declared an emergency (communicate). Why? I was in the clouds with minimal equipment, surrounded by mountains and I wanted help choosing a location or so someone could find us. Headed to my landing area - a nearby airport ATC helped me select (navigate). What would you have chosen to do?

 

[midlifeflyer]

As a new student pilot (world's lowest time tail dragger student at .8 hrs), I wondered that, if there's a 50/50 chance it's an emergency, is it better to declare and then be "wrong" or not declare and find out that I should have declared after the fact? Not having asked my CFI about this yet, my gut reaction would to err on safety (for those beyond my aircraft) and declare in that situation or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

IMO, you are thinking exactly the right way.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Or you might not be in communication with ATC during your flight, would you want to randomly talk on 121.5?

If you don't know what frequency is being used nearby, definitely "randomly" on 121.5. That's the whole idea.

Communicating when one is afraid to say the "E" word can get ridiculous. I was returning to my home base when I heard a pilot report right downwind. We are left traffic, so I keyed the mic and said, "[Airport] is left traffic." No response but a little later, [Aircraft] right base." I repeated what I said and got an earful in return about how I should shut up because he was having an emergency but "didn't want to declare it."

I've thought about using it for a seminar on communication (not just about emergencies), especially after Watsonville.

 

[traumamed]

I've declared twice. The first time the FSDO wanted copies of my last annual, last maintenance entry, pilot certificate, last flight review, medical, as well as a written narrative. They were very pleasant, and finding nothing wrong in the info I submitted, thanked me for my time and that was that. Saying that there's no hassle though is not necessarily true. I was also met by the local fire department and police after landing, who also both wanted my information.

Resurrecting this thread to +1 this comment and add my data point. Unfortunately, I had to land with my nose gear retracted a couple nights ago. The mains extended normally, but the nose gear was jammed and all troubleshooting failed. I declared and proceeded to my home base, which happens to be a class C international airport. I'm fine, I didn't have any pax, and the plane is repairable with primarily just mechanical damage from the ensuing prop strike. ATC and emergency personnel were awesome by the way. I can't thank them enough for their help.

However, I awoke the next morning, just 12 hours after the incident, to an email from my friendly neighborhood FSDO inspector. He was requesting multiple documents related to proving my and my airplane's currency "ASAP," as well as a signed statement detailing the incident, my mechanic's contact information, witness contact information, and photos. I was subsequently informed that he intends to inspect my plane personally next week. So I can't really say that declaring didn't result in inconvenience for me. Would it have happened regardless, seeing as I shut down a runway at a major airport for nearly an hour? Maybe. But I found a thread from 2015 talking about how the FAA rarely asks questions after an emergency declaration, and then this thread, and I simply cannot say from my own anecdotal experience that this is always the case.

I'm not worried in the least about the potential for an action against my certificate, because I did nothing wrong. I am actually pretty proud of how I handled the situation. It's more the inconvenience and aggravation. I sure didn't need the extra trip to the hangar to fetch records; the two hours of scanning and paperwork; the calls to friends who happened to be at the airport and saw me land to say that, hey, I had to give your contact info to the FAA; nor the time out of my week next week to meet the FAA guy. This is all on top of what I already have to do for my insurance claim, etc. Will it affect my decision-making in the future as to whether to declare an emergency? I'd like to say no, but let's be real, it'll cross my mind - especially if the meeting next week doesn't go well for some reason.

 

[Jim K]

Resurrecting this thread to +1 this comment and add my data point. Unfortunately, I had to land with my nose gear retracted a couple nights ago. The mains extended normally, but the nose gear was jammed and all troubleshooting failed. I declared and proceeded to my home base, which happens to be a class C international airport. I'm fine, I didn't have any pax, and the plane is repairable with primarily just mechanical damage from the ensuing prop strike. ATC and emergency personnel were awesome by the way. I can't thank them enough for their help.

However, I awoke the next morning, just 12 hours after the incident, to an email from my friendly neighborhood FSDO inspector. He was requesting multiple documents related to proving my and my airplane's currency "ASAP," as well as a signed statement detailing the incident, my mechanic's contact information, witness contact information, and photos. I was subsequently informed that he intends to inspect my plane personally next week. So I can't really say that declaring didn't result in inconvenience for me. Would it have happened regardless, seeing as I shut down a runway at a major airport for nearly an hour? Maybe. But I found a thread from 2015 talking about how the FAA rarely asks questions after an emergency declaration, and then this thread, and I simply cannot say from my own anecdotal experience that this is always the case.

I'm not worried in the least about the potential for an action against my certificate, because I did nothing wrong. I am actually pretty proud of how I handled the situation. It's more the inconvenience and aggravation. I sure didn't need the extra trip to the hangar to fetch records; the two hours of scanning and paperwork; the calls to friends who happened to be at the airport and saw me land to say that, hey, I had to give your contact info to the FAA; nor the time out of my week next week to meet the FAA guy. This is all on top of what I already have to do for my insurance claim, etc. Will it affect my decision-making in the future as to whether to declare an emergency? I'd like to say no, but let's be real, it'll cross my mind - especially if the meeting next week doesn't go well for some reason.

Sorry about your landing gear misfortune. That's certainly in the back of the mind of any retract pilot. Hope everything goes well for you with insurance and repairs.

The only time my "interview", which was over the phone, felt a bit adversarial was when the asi asked me about using an emergency checklist. In truth I didn't consult a checklist (although I really should have), but there's not an "engine making power but you can feel it surging" checklist. I did check all the stuff that's on the "loss of power" checklist (you know, fuel, air, and spark), but I did so from memory/ years of experience messing with engines, not running down a list.

Sounds like they're looking for evidence of a maintenence deficiency on your part. So long as you're in annual and they did a gear swing, you have nothing to worry about, although it is a hassle. I sometimes wonder if the Asi's just need something to do. I suppose the threat of them going through your logs in a case like this is the incentive to keep your ad's and other mx up to date... well, that and the desire to stay alive.

I'm guessing you used the "gear won't extend" checklist, as it can be a more complex set of steps that you don't do every day, which is where checklists are super useful. Make sure you tell the asi that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So I can't really say that declaring didn't result in inconvenience for me. Would it have happened regardless, seeing as I shut down a runway at a major airport for nearly an hour? Maybe

I don’t think there”s any “maybe” about it. Declaring the emergency had zero to do with the follow-up. A reported gear up (even without closing down a runway) is almost always going to result in an FAA inquiry, if for no reason other than determining if a 709 ride is in order.

 

[Tools]

Man… I can’t even remember how many times I’ve declared… coupla fires, coupla shut down engines, low oil, no oil, engine just failing, engine quit, low fuel, medicals, criminal behavior, pressurization, flap problems, gear problems…

NEVER been called.

I do teach that in some cases it’s a “AVIATE” thing rather than a “communicate” thing in that it clears real estate for you.

Also… those situations usually get worse, not better, once they start. Delaying a declaration can exacerbate problems.

I have literally “un-declared”. Usually accompanied by a “understood, better safe than sorry eh?!” Never been called on one of those either.

 

[AV8R_87]

However, I awoke the next morning, just 12 hours after the incident, to an email from my friendly neighborhood FSDO inspector. He was requesting multiple documents related to proving my and my airplane's currency "ASAP," as well as a signed statement detailing the incident, my mechanic's contact information, witness contact information, and photos. I was subsequently informed that he intends to inspect my plane personally next week. So I can't really say that declaring didn't result in inconvenience for me. Would it have happened regardless, seeing as I shut down a runway at a major airport for nearly an hour? Maybe. But I found a thread from 2015 talking about how the FAA rarely asks questions after an emergency declaration, and then this thread, and I simply cannot say from my own anecdotal experience that this is always the case.

That seems a bit over the top, especially the ASAP part. I understand they want some of your personal recollections while they're fresh, but from the way you've written it I would've considered the tone a bit adversarial, too.
How about the ASI gets his empennage to your field, and he politely asks to meet you in person at the hangar. That way he can review the paperwork himself, take his own pictures and interview people, and he can write down your statement. People need to do their own jobs. What's next, the NTSB asking crash survivors to take their own pictures of the wreck and collect some bits on their way to the hospital?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Man… I can’t even remember how many times I’ve declared… coupla fires, coupla shut down engines, low oil, no oil, engine just failing, engine quit, low fuel, medicals, criminal behavior, pressurization, flap problems, gear problems…

NEVER been called.

I do teach that in some cases it’s a “AVIATE” thing rather than a “communicate” thing in that it clears real estate for you.

Also… those situations usually get worse, not better, once they start. Delaying a declaration can exacerbate problems.

I have literally “un-declared”. Usually accompanied by a “understood, better safe than sorry eh?!” Never been called on one of those either.

Your experience is pretty much typical, although there will sometimes be a brief follow-up. And yes, delaying or avoiding a declaration can definitely make the situation worse.

 

[traumamed]

Sorry about your landing gear misfortune. That's certainly in the back of the mind of any retract pilot. Hope everything goes well for you with insurance and repairs.

The only time my "interview", which was over the phone, felt a bit adversarial was when the asi asked me about using an emergency checklist. In truth I didn't consult a checklist (although I really should have), but there's not an "engine making power but you can feel it surging" checklist. I did check all the stuff that's on the "loss of power" checklist (you know, fuel, air, and spark), but I did so from memory/ years of experience messing with engines, not running down a list.

Sounds like they're looking for evidence of a maintenence deficiency on your part. So long as you're in annual and they did a gear swing, you have nothing to worry about, although it is a hassle. I sometimes wonder if the Asi's just need something to do. I suppose the threat of them going through your logs in a case like this is the incentive to keep your ad's and other mx up to date... well, that and the desire to stay alive.

I'm guessing you used the "gear won't extend" checklist, as it can be a more complex set of steps that you don't do every day, which is where checklists are super useful. Make sure you tell the asi that.

Thanks, yeah I never believed in the thing about "those who have, and those who will" with retract pilots. I do now obviously lol, being a newly minted member of the former. It hadn't sunk in before that some gear-ups are legit mechanical failures and not just pilot error.

All paperwork for me and the plane are in order, plane was preflighted, checklists were run, etc etc. So all good there. The ASI gets to read about all of this in excruciating detail lol.

I don’t think there”s any “maybe” about it. Declaring the emergency had zero to do with the follow-up. A reported gear up (even without closing down a runway) is almost always going to result in an FAA inquiry, if for no reason other than determining if a 709 ride is in order.

I would be shocked if a 709 ride came out of this. We are talking about a mechanical gear failure which was properly and exhaustively troubleshooted. Then, with failure of all emergency procedures, a declared emergency and associated communications, planning, and coordination with ATC and ground emergency personnel recorded on 45+ minutes of ATC tapes, along with what I would consider imho to be a textbook landing for the scenario. What competency exactly would they be concerned about?

Hitting home with the topic of this thread - if through some strange Twilight Zone turn of events I somehow get slapped with a 709 ride, then I would be hesitant to ever declare again, or to utilized a towered field for an emergency. I'll take my chances at Bubba's Air Park and BBQ. Or idk, I'm just enough of a prideful jerk that I might just consider turning in my certificate on principle, rather than take the ride. As far as I'm concerned, I already proved my competency in an actual emergency. Delta First isn't so bad, and it's certainly cheaper than airplane ownership.

That seems a bit over the top, especially the ASAP part. I understand they want some of your personal recollections while they're fresh, but from the way you've written it I would've considered the tone a bit adversarial, too.
How about the ASI gets his empennage to your field, and he politely asks to meet you in person at the hangar. That way he can review the paperwork himself, take his own pictures and interview people, and he can write down your statement. People need to do their own jobs. What's next, the NTSB asking crash survivors to take their own pictures of the wreck and collect some bits on their way to the hospital?

Yeah, this nails it on the head. I'm just annoyed. The ASI can dig away to his heart's content, I have nothing to hide. Handing me the shovel though, no thanks. I already have a job that pays me, why should I have to do yours for free?

 

[Salty]

Just to be clear. It ain’t the paperwork people are afraid of.

 

[midlifeflyer]

would be shocked if a 709 ride came out of this. We are talking about a mechanical gear failure which was properly and exhaustively troubleshooted.

So would I. Just explaining why they look. The likelihood it’s because of the declaration is close to zero.

 

[Dana]

On all of the several occasions where I've had an inflight emergency, I wasn't already talking to anybody, and being busy aviating I certainly wasn't going to waste time trying to figure out who to talk to. There was nothing anybody on the ground could do for me anyway.

But if you're in a situation where somebody on the ground can help (need ATC to clear traffic, or help navigate to the nearest field) and you have the time, by all means declare.