FBO will not give me my plane back

Matthew Rogers said:
The credit card chargeback is a good idea. The customer is basically always right with a credit card chargeback, especially with American Express. I have never seen the "retailer", in this case the FBO, ever win a chargeback. I don't know why the process isn't actually fair to both parties, but I would give it a greater than 80% chance that you could just dispute the charge and it will be refunded immediately and two months later you will get a letter that the matter is settled and the money is back for good. You can always still start the small claims court stuff in the meantime. Do both and whichever one works first, you can go with that one. Not a problem if both of them work out!
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If they have a signed receipt he could lose. His signature is his agreement to the charge shown on the receipt. The fight would then be whether or not he received what he agreed to pay for, which in this case I think he did (a hangared airplane). I wouldn’t go this route. The cancelled check route would work better, but you probably would actually be committing a crime doing that.

It sucks because he didn’t agree to pay for hangaring his plane originally, but they did provide the service, so they are both right. It’s still ****ty of the FBO though. Tell us who it is.
 
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You would think that the signed receipt means that the retailer would win, but that is not how the process works. It is basically a sham court where the credit card processor makes an arbitrary decision based on information you provide and information it request from the retailer. If the retailer does not get the email, responds late, or even provides all the correct info, they will still lose almost all the time for no real reason other than "the customer is always right".

If you are concerned you can always sign the receipt with a nice cursive "Under duress" or "Do not agree to charges" something like that. If they claim they have your signature, just ask them to look more closely and see that the receipt is not signed by you.

I have had cases where I provided complete email chains between me and a customer of mine where he acknowledged that he received the goods and was satisfied and everything was great, but still lost all the money in a chargeback.
 
If you fight this or if you do any of the too-cute things people have recommended, they’ll file a lien against the airplane and it’ll cost you more than $1200 to fix it. Pay the money and move on.
 
Skyrys62 said:
If they take checks, pay with a check, get the plane, cancel check.
Be prepared for a fight though.
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That, and paying by credit with the intent to refuse the charge are both considered fraud, I believe. I would not commit a crime over $1200.

Personally, I'd offer to pay the new management for 2 days of storage at whatever their current rate is and stand my ground on the agreement you had with prior management.
 
I don't like the idea of anyone giving in to a business doing something like this. However, I understand if someone doesn't want to put up with the hassle... if you do end up paying please post up some proof and the airport/FBO so everyone knows to avoid them.
 
Offer a compromise. Start with $250 and be on your way for around $500. Then you're done and you've learned a valuable lesson. As you know, flying isn't cheap, this is just one small example. Besides, you may want to go back there someday.
 
Honestly this does sound like a scam. $1200 is a big fat bill for 2 weeks of hangaring a single engine piston at a sattelite airport where a hangar rents for $200-350 per month. They should have been really clear with the OP about the cost, and give him a break if they were not.

Most sensible thing to do is to pay the bill, document that you do not agree with the bill, and go to small claims court if you are so inclined.

A reasonable alternative might be to offer to pay one month’s hangar rent. A decent FBO with people who are not *******s should understand that $1200 is not a reasonable fee for 2 weeks of hangaring an old Mooney when the monthly rate is 300 bucks or something... and offer you a compromise
 
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Where was this, specifically? Name names, shout it far and wide. Aviation is a small community. $75/ day for transient parking is a rip-off.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Where was this, specifically? Name names, shout it far and wide. Aviation is a small community. $75/ day for transient parking is a rip-off.
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Actually, I searched "daily hangar rates" and $75 per night for a small airplane is not terribly out-of-line. Of course, if you negotiate two weeks up-front you should pay maybe half or less, IMO.
 
I’d say, where is the contract I signed or the authorization to hangar it?

My course would be to pay the bill, file an embesslment complaint with the local police, contact the AOPA, the. Sue them in small claims.

Point being, they can’t flip the script after you left just as if you go in for an oil change, come back and they overhauled the engine without authorization.
 
MooneyGuy35 said:
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, they changed management / ownership (idk what’s going on) like two days ago. The guy backcharged me because they changed the policy.
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So the argument is that you owe them $150, since that’s when the new policy kicked in.
 
If it were me, I would offer a lower amount to not involve the police, $150 seems reasonable, then I would call the police in their presence. They can’t create a contract without your agreement. There’s a chance the police will side with you.

It’s a civil case indeed - but on the FbO side, they can’t hold your property without a contract IMO. That would be theft. They can sue you for the fee.
 
Try to negotiate a lower amount. Pay your bill and move on with life. This will be a valuable learning lesson for you.
 
kyleb said:
That, and paying by credit with the intent to refuse the charge are both considered fraud, I believe. I would not commit a crime over $1200.

Personally, I'd offer to pay the new management for 2 days of storage at whatever their current rate is and stand my ground on the agreement you had with prior management.
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I would say that you’re technically correct.
However, my experience is that nobody cares. This has been happening more and more where I work. There’s almost no good recourse.

Fair Credit Act says you can chargeback for:
“...
Charges for goods and services the consumer did not accept
Charges for goods and services that weren’t delivered as agreed
...”
 
alfadog said:
Actually, I searched "daily hangar rates" and $75 per night for a small airplane is not terribly out-of-line. Of course, if you negotiate two weeks up-front you should pay maybe half or less, IMO.
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But for the fact he didn't ask for or authorize a hangar. He asked for transient parking. If the facts are as stated, they're ripping him off, they know it, he knows it, and we all ought to know who it is.
 
Skyrys62 said:
If they take checks, pay with a check, get the plane, cancel check.
Be prepared for a fight though.
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Cancelling a check is tantamount to stealing, as if you paid cash and then took the cash back.
Pay with a credit card and dispute it as was recently suggested. The CC company withhold the money form them and will demand written and signed evidence that you owed the money.

Why on God's earth would anyone say to shove a pistol up their nose? Even as a joke?

But I too believe there is more to this story, and I would really like to hear it. Can you at least identify the FBO?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
But for the fact he didn't ask for or authorize a hangar. He asked for transient parking. If the facts are as stated, they're ripping him off, they know it, he knows it, and we all ought to know who it is.
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Right, just commenting on the fee, not their right to charge it.
 
*Cough* ... folks, the OP may not have the $1200, or a credit card with that much available credit. Been there, done it, back in my lean and hungry days.

To the OP, here's what I'd do.

1. First, contact the original FBO and see if they won't help you.

2. Try to negotiate. Talk to airport management (that probably won't do any good, but it doesn't hurt to try).

3. If that doesn't work, file a small claims action for recovery. If you can get the original FBO to testify to your deal, it's a slam dunk. Depending on the laws in your jurisdiction, the judge may be able to order the FBO to return the plane for the original $150.

In real life, if the current FBO gets a summons to court, he/she will probably be more willing to negotiate. That official-looking court document that says "An Action Has Been Filed Against You!" is hard to ignore.

Talk to an attorney. Most offer the initial consult for free. BUT ... the only wild card is, if the current FBO hires an attorney to accompany him/her in small claims (assuming your state permits that), DO NOT go to court without an attorney. You're almost guaranteed to lose. (Sad, but true.) The problem with that, of course, is that you will probably pay $1200 (or more) in attorney's fees.

This is messed up. I wish the OP would post the name of the FBO and the airport.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
You would think that the signed receipt means that the retailer would win, but that is not how the process works. It is basically a sham court where the credit card processor makes an arbitrary decision based on information you provide and information it request from the retailer. If the retailer does not get the email, responds late, or even provides all the correct info, they will still lose almost all the time for no real reason other than "the customer is always right".

If you are concerned you can always sign the receipt with a nice cursive "Under duress" or "Do not agree to charges" something like that. If they claim they have your signature, just ask them to look more closely and see that the receipt is not signed by you.

I have had cases where I provided complete email chains between me and a customer of mine where he acknowledged that he received the goods and was satisfied and everything was great, but still lost all the money in a chargeback.
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This is a good option.

I’d still try to go there when no one was around and get the ramp guy to pull the plane out and just go.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What if you parked your car on the street, and then your neighbor towed it into his garage? That's what this sounds like to me, that the plane was outside prior to being buried in the hangar and taken hostage.

OP, what is the airport/FBO? Please save the rest of us from running into them!
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It is very obviously not like this. Note that the FBO said they'd hangar it if they could. Note that the plane was parked in the FBO's "parking lot".
 
I'm pretty sure getting property withheld on account of services rendered that were not requested, is textbook extortion. Last time I checked that was criminal (unless you're part of the political or corporate elite of course).
 
Skyrys62 said:
If they take checks, pay with a check, get the plane, cancel check.
Be prepared for a fight though.
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In my state, if you pay with a check that is known to be bad, you've committed a felony.
 
In my veterinary clinic, it wold be considered "theft of property" if we held an animal for non-payment after performing requested and properly authorized services. Many times people would request services and sign all necessary authorizations then refuse to pay. We were not allowed to hold the animal (which is considered property) for payment. We never did that, but if we did they would be within their rights to call the police over the theft.

I really want to hear the rest of this story, and the name of the FBO. Otherwise I consider it trolling.
I'll apologize for that remark if I am proven wrong.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
It is very obviously not like this. Note that the FBO said they'd hangar it if they could. Note that the plane was parked in the FBO's "parking lot".
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I wouldn't say that at all. The "neighbor" analogy doesn't really work, but it's akin to asking a mechanic if you can park in their parking lot for a few days, and then they pull your car into the garage and won't let you have it back until you pay a $100/day "parking fee" that you didn't agree to beforehand. In either case, the OP's airplane is being held for ransom.

I would do the credit card chargeback thing, and definitely sign "under duress" or something like that, though "Donald Duck" might work just as well.

Matthew Rogers said:
I have had cases where I provided complete email chains between me and a customer of mine where he acknowledged that he received the goods and was satisfied and everything was great, but still lost all the money in a chargeback.
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Why the chargeback if everything was great??
 
Of course, everything I said above is based on what the OP has said. If, for example, the new FBO sent a letter to the OP warning of the new policy, it gets a lot muddier.

From my experience, most people don't know the law. If the OP has told a straight story, I suspect that the new FBO thinks that a public notice (advertising, new signs, etc) covers them. They'd be wrong, but that might explain their behavior.
 
If the facts are as described, I would just be inclined to tell them if they don't return your plane and you are forced to pay their bill under duress you will then sue them (both the FBO and the individuals personally) for fraud and conversion of property (ask them if they think their insurance policy covers them personally for fraud and conversion), and will be seeking punitives, attorneys' fees, costs, pre and post judgment interest. Their costs are going to be a hell of a lot higher than then 1200.00 they are trying to charge. No, I don't know what state you are in and what the law is, so I can't tell you that these theories will be successful and/or that there are not better theories of recovery. I am just talking negotiation right now. In general (maybe not in that state, granted), they take the property subject to the prior agreements. They step into the shoes of the prior owner. They don't get to unilaterally re-negotiate the contract ex post facto. This is essentially no different than if you had pre-paid the prior FBO owner.
 
I think I’d go the credit card route as well. Involving the police and taking them to court sounds like the best way to get their attention, but the potential for that to turn into months of back and forth between you and the FBO would be enough to make me figure out something else.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
In my state, if you pay with a check that is known to be bad, you've committed a felony.
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If you can prove the check was written against actual funds, it was not a bad check, and you can stop-payment. This would get the plane back and put the collections issue in the FBO's hands.

As for the management change portion of the problem, you don't know how the old owner represented his receivables to fatten the sale price. Have you sought that person out to clarify the oral contract?

Finally, we get to the concept of Implied Liens. Storage is different than Maintenance, but both vary by state so we're back to needing to contact a Lawyer for a consult.
 
The old owner must have known the FBO was being sold. They might have said it was free since they didn’t care. Doesn’t excuse the new one being a jerk, but you might be stuck in between.

I’d pay for an hour of a local atty. understand your legal position and have him write a letter to show your seriousness. Clock is ticking as well, assume FBO will keep charging at the same time not letting the plane out.
 
There are many unanswered questions here, but I have several observations and (perhaps) a suggestion.

1. You said that there is new management; do you have the names of the prior management? If so, it would be useful to contact them (in a friendly and non-confrontational way) and asked them if they recall the facts as you do. If they do, and are willing to testify if needed, it's a huge difference; if they do, but don't backup your story, it becomes less appealing. Either way, you need to know.

2. Does the FBO have published pricing for the services for which you are being charged? Do they have signs up, is it on their website, anything like that? And, if they do, when with the first published?

3. Ultimately, the most important thing is to get your plane back. If a friendly discussion does not yield either releasing the plane for the originally-agreed charges, or reduction to an acceptable number, I would also be in the camp that says you should just go ahead and pay with a credit card and, if you believe the facts supported, dispute the charge with the credit card company.

In any event, you need to get the plane out, because the whole time were talking about this, more charges are running up.

Stuart Fraley said:
If you fight this or if you do any of the too-cute things people have recommended, they’ll file a lien against the airplane and it’ll cost you more than $1200 to fix it. Pay the money and move on.
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It would be useful to know what state all this is taking place in; imposition of liens against aircraft is regulated by state law; the registration of liens in the FAA aircraft records in Oklahoma is only a notice function, and has no legal effect in itself.

In Texas, for example, in order for such a lien to be valid, the party claiming a lien against personal assets like an aircraft must have actual possession of the aircraft; hence, another reason why you should do what's necessary to get the airplane back in your hands.
 
One other thought: have you spoken to the new owner of the FBO, or only to the people at the front desk?

I have often found that a quiet, low-key conversation with the person in charge can resolve many problems. The people at the front desk likely lack the authority to make a decision, anyway, and yelling at them certainly won't help.
 
I agree with SCCutler, call the old management and (if you can) get a recording of them saying what you said they said about no fees. Take that to the new management and see what they say. If you have to it can be evidence in any lawsuit you have to file.
 
I'm sorry but I don't think I would pay the bill and "chalk it up to experience". I would only do that if I was at fault. If the facts are correct, the OP did nothing wrong and is getting held hostage. Start with the cops and go from there.

To @MooneyGuy35: PLEASE, tell us where this happened. From what I've seen, the power of this board reaches far and wide and the identification of this FBO would allow many of us to avoid them. We don't want to get caught like you. At least tell us what state it's in so we can argue about how to solve this legally.
 
MooneyGuy35 said:
Hello everyone!

I recently took my plane and parked it at an FBO. It has been there for about two weeks. When I left it there, I left my name, number, and email. I also bought fuel. I was told that there were no ramp fees or parking fees. I was told this by their management.

Now I come back as planned, and they put my plane in the back of one of their hangars and will not let me see it nor take it without paying $75 / day. They want me to pay about $1,200 to take my plane back.

Any idea on what I can do about this? Is this even legal? I never signed anything.
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What we have here is a failure to communicate. No ramp or parking fee and leaving the plane two weeks are not the same thing. You seriously thought you were going to store your airplane two weeks for free?

Pay by check and cancel the check with your bank.
 
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Ravioli said:
If you can prove the check was written against actual funds, it was not a bad check, and you can stop-payment.
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Not if you intend to stop payment. We had this happen where I used to work. They arrested the guy. It was sweet.
 
This is ridiculous and why pilots have a notorious reputation for being cheap. I pulled up asked about parking fees and left it.....for two weeks.

Recently...I went to a hotel paid for a night and tried to stay two weeks and they had the audacity to kick me out!

They should've bulldozed your plane into a ditch as it was abandoned property.
 
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