Father & Son Flight Training

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SethV

Pre-takeoff checklist
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SethV
Hi Everyone - first post here.

My son has recently been bitten by the flying bug - I have always wanted my PPL, now this seems like a great chance for both of us to go flying together. He is in 5th grade, so it is a few years before he can get his certificate.

Wonder if anyone has taken lessons with a kid this young? I would like to get my PPL soon, and I think it would be great to have him working on his training as well so when it comes time to solo, he will already have lots of hours.

We have signed up for a discovery flight with Flight 101 at the Pontiac MI airport. I grew up flying with my uncle in his Bonanza V-Tail. Not sure which one of us is more excited.

As far as training goes, lots of instructors to choose from. What do you look for? Prices for a 172 range from $106 - $140 wet. The more expensive ones have the glass pannel - is it worth it to start on the glass panel or should we start old school?

Thanks & sorry for all of the questions!!

Seth
 
I am thinking that you get your PPL, then when you feel ready take the kid flying. A discovery flight with him is great but during actual instruction I would find it a distraction, unless he can really stay quiet.
 
I would start old school since all the old stuff will be on your written exam and because that is the foundation on which the techie stuff is built.

Sign your son up for young eagles so his ground school and written test will be free.
They will pay for his first flight lesson if he passes. It's a pretty good deal and it costs nothing.

You get your PPL and let him ride back seat on some of your training flights.
My CFI let me bring pax on a handful of flights.

After you get your PPL, fly him all over creation until he is old enough to start training for his own PPL.
 
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Young Eagles does ground training?

I have a 4th grader who has been interested in airports and airplanes since he was six months old. Yes, he did inspire my PPL.

I discovered yesterday that he can reach the rudder pedals of a 152, but he's still afraid to take the controls. Too many flight sim crashes.
 
MAKG1 said:
Young Eagles does ground training?

I have a 4th grader who has been interested in airports and airplanes since he was six months old. Yes, he did inspire my PPL.

I discovered yesterday that he can reach the rudder pedals of a 152, but he's still afraid to take the controls. Too many flight sim crashes.
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Sorry sloppy wording but sort of.
I have a bunch of YE logbooks that I sign and give to the kids on YE flights. On the back of the log book is a code.

They enter the code and get:
Free access to the Sporty's Learn to Fly course: http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/17136

Once they have completed the first 3 volumes of that course, EAA will pay for their first flight lesson.

I am looking at my brochure now and I don't see any mention of it covering the cost of the written but I was told it did. I will look for more info on that.
 
There is a guy who rents the plane from the same guy I do he and his son are both working on the PP. One sits in the back while the other one flies then they switch. Really a pretty good idea if you ask me you get a lot out of watching someone else either screw up or do it right, at least I do.
 
I sit in the back on my dad's IFR training flights.
 
5th grade is typically about 11 years old, and in this instructor's experience, that's a bit young for formal lessons. You go ahead and do your own training, and get your son in the Young Eagles program, but that's about it for now. Leave the ground school for the written exam and actual flying lessons until his feet can reach the rudder pedals and he can see over the glare shield -- about age 14 is probably a good point for that. And note that taking the written test now (or even at age 14) would be pointless since the test expires after 24 months and he has to be 17 to take the Private Pilot-Airplane practical test.

As for what to look for in an instructor, what you want is, in no particular order, operational experience, dedication to teaching, and maturity.

BTW, while you haven't mentioned it, bringing your 11-y/o son along in the back seat while you train does not strike me as a good idea for a lot of reasons, at least in the initial phase of your training. Maybe for the dual XC's, but not before.
 
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Continuing what Ron said...most 11 yr olds are too short for pedals and panel. But more important are the cognitive skills. Adults have problems with the FARs, so what do you think a grade-schooler will think of them? Add in weather - understanding how geography affects weather but all the acronyms and the details of the books. Flight planning, weight & balance, etc (ok, stop with the foreflight/wingx/etc electronic stuff - gotta learn the old way first). It's too much for most early middle schoolers.

Wait until he's 13 or so and introduce him to gliders. Most of the technical stuff is the same as powered, plus he'll be much better at landings.
 
murphey said:
Continuing what Ron said...most 11 yr olds are too short for pedals and panel. But more important are the cognitive skills. Adults have problems with the FARs, so what do you think a grade-schooler will think of them? Add in weather - understanding how geography affects weather but all the acronyms and the details of the books. Flight planning, weight & balance, etc (ok, stop with the foreflight/wingx/etc electronic stuff - gotta learn the old way first). It's too much for most early middle schoolers.

Wait until he's 13 or so and introduce him to gliders. Most of the technical stuff is the same as powered, plus he'll be much better at landings.
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My 9 year old can reach the rudder pedals on a 152 and push them to the floor easily while looking over the glareshield. This is with NO nonstandard equipment. I'd prefer he was an inch or two higher for a better sight picture, so we'll try one of those short-people pads next time. The seat has to be all the way forward and the recliner all the way up. He's 4'6" and 70 lbs, not particularly big.

Now, if only I could sit straight in one. Maybe I'll try opening the window and fly like a Southern trucker with my elbow hanging out the window...

But, he's much too young to solo. Not much can be done about that but wait, even for the glider route.
 
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Ron Levy said:
5th grade is typically about 11 years old, and in this instructor's experience, that's a bit young for formal lessons. You go ahead and do your own training, and get your son in the Young Eagles program, but that's about it for now. Leave the ground school for the written exam and actual flying lessons until his feet can reach the rudder pedals and he can see over the glare shield -- about age 14 is probably a good point for that. And note that taking the written test now (or even at age 14) would be pointless since the test expires after 24 months and he has to be 17 to take the Private Pilot-Airplane practical test.

As for what to look for in an instructor, what you want is, in no particular order, operational experience, dedication to teaching, and maturity.

BTW, while you haven't mentioned it, bringing your 11-y/o son along in the back seat while you train does not strike me as a good idea for a lot of reasons, at least in the initial phase of your training. Maybe for the dual XC's, but not before.
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murphey said:
Continuing what Ron said...most 11 yr olds are too short for pedals and panel. But more important are the cognitive skills. Adults have problems with the FARs, so what do you think a grade-schooler will think of them? Add in weather - understanding how geography affects weather but all the acronyms and the details of the books. Flight planning, weight & balance, etc (ok, stop with the foreflight/wingx/etc electronic stuff - gotta learn the old way first). It's too much for most early middle schoolers.

Wait until he's 13 or so and introduce him to gliders. Most of the technical stuff is the same as powered, plus he'll be much better at landings.
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+1 to both of these comments

And once you have your license and start to fly out to places, there is still plenty of activity to share with him.

One area to consider is not to rush him.

I've met one professional pilot and his 18-year old son who were considering joining our owner's club (www.metroflyersclub.com). Dad was a super high time ATP and a captain on two big aircraft for a major carrier, anda CFI-I. Son has his primary, about 125 hrs logged and starting in on his instrument. Dad made it well known he wanted to join so that he could have access to something for recreation and son could have something that Dad would train him on, for time building, and getting instruction via CFII Dad so he too could become an big time ATP.

After 30 minutes, it became clear that Junior had no real interest in following his Dad's footsteps. Dad had paid for everything up to that point and more, and was really putting the pressure on Junior to continue rapid progress. 125 hours and Junior had yet to go on a fun flight with his buddies for a $100 hamburger or just to show what a change of altitude is like.

So Dad kinda sort sourced the enjoyment of flight by pushing Junior into a career.

Moral: Start by doing the flying for yourself, and make it something fun to always share with Dad. If he shows interest in doing it for himself, then make it available. Perhaps as rewards for doing well in school and around the home.
 
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Welcome to the Blue Board, Seth. Sounds like you are excited. Good. Enjoy the learning experience.
 
Thanks for the comments guys. Will look into the Young Eagles program.

We went for our Discovery flight today. Both had a blast. I flew for .7 hr and then we landed and let my son try out the front seat. He enjoyed it, but I think he had almost as much fun in the back seat. Winds were strong (18 kts crossiwnd) and gusting today, a few good bumps but it didn't seem to bother my son at all.

I signed up for a 6 hr air time / 10 hr instruction package for myself and they said for most of it my son can ride along. I think as long as he is facinated by it and pays attention to what the instructor is saying it will be lots of fun to have him with me.

The idea of the $100 hamburger sounds the most fun to me. I love the journey and dropping in new places. Eventually I want to get my instrument rating so we can do cross country with the whole family, but I know that will take some time. I don't have any plans to do it for a living.

Thanks guys!!

Seth
 
Where are you flying?
What type of plane?
 
11 year olds race motocross bikes, and race sailboats, and build our sneakers no reason a 11 year old can't learn to fly a plane.
 
Flying out of PTK (Oakland County north of Detroit) in a 172. I am an automotive engineer and we always drive everywhere in pre-production trucks, so the hardest part is getting over my cheapness of "drive everywhere". I just keep telling myself that yeah, this costs a lot but it sure is fun!
 
I've done this sort of thing before. I would suggest you probably have the kid do a lesson about every third lesson you do. Kids retain things pretty well and really you've got quite a few years before he can solo. Dial it up a few months before his 16th birthday.

In my case, the father wanted to swap lessons. One father, next lesson son, and have both of them ride along with the other one was flying. The kid kind of lost interest pretty quickly since his ability to solo was so many years off. Eventually the dad changed to having the kid fly once a month to save money and speed up the training of his certificate.
 
SethV said:
I signed up for a 6 hr air time / 10 hr instruction package for myself
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Okay, this has my spidey sense tingling....

Please elaborate how the school explained "Air time" and "Instruction" time?

There are many ways the not so reputable schools can do financial harm to unsuspecting students. I'd like to make sure you're not about to step into one of those traps.

A school "selling" you time in the manner you stated above is out of the ordinary.
 
They bill for the airplane when the prop is turning. Regular rate for the 172 is $106/hr. The instructor fee is $40, and that is billable for any time spent with him including ground instructions. They offered 6 hours of flying time and 10 hours of instructor time for $777. Also came with a leather log book and a couple text books. What do you think? I am a newbie so thanks for looking out for me!
 
Sounds like 6 hours of flight training and 4 hours of ground.
It is about what I paid.
 
You've got time. Get your license, add the instrument rating, then do a combined commercial/instructor course (they're very similar), then YOU teach him to fly when he's 16 so he can take his checkride when he turns 17!

I got to teach my son to fly and it will forever be one of my most treasured memories....well, except for the mornings he didn't want to get out of bed to fly early! :D
 
I don't have any real advice for you but I just wanted to share how awesome it is that you and your son will have this common experience! I'm the first generation in my family to become a pilot and I often have no one to share my experiences with apart from a very rare trip with my Mom or Dad. It's awesome that you and your son will have this shared expeerience and I'm certainly envious.
 
SethV said:
They bill for the airplane when the prop is turning. Regular rate for the 172 is $106/hr. The instructor fee is $40, and that is billable for any time spent with him including ground instructions. They offered 6 hours of flying time and 10 hours of instructor time for $777. Also came with a leather log book and a couple text books. What do you think? I am a newbie so thanks for looking out for me!
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$146/hr for a C172 with fuel and instructor isn't too bad these days.

But You must have gotten a discount somehow...

6 x $106 = $636 (aircraft rental only)
6 x $146 = $876 (aircraft + Instructor)

So if $100 off of your 6hrs of rental plus $160 of instructor plus value of the books is your discount, that's a decent deal.

But keep that receipt or what ever they gave you saying that you have purchased and paid in full for that time. And never pre-pay any amount that you're not prepared to walk away from (either you must quit training, or the school shuts down. Lots of stories exist about 5-figure pre-pays and the school vanishes)

Plus be aware there are many ways to waste and save the rental costs/time. Essentially if the airplane power is on and you're just sitting there holding the yoke and making flying noises, you're burning up your $106/hr. Same if you're at an airport that is very active and it's a long time sitting waiting your turn at the hold short line with nothing to do. That 20-minute wait ate up $35.33 of your money with nothing really to show for it.

Saving money is easy. Be very prepared for your lessons (read your books), be well briefed by your CFI, and use all the ground resources available before you turn on that master switch.

Oh, and fly as often as possible. 2 times a week minimum, 3 if possible.

Enjoy the training and keep us posted on progress.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
11 year olds race motocross bikes, and race sailboats, and build our sneakers no reason a 11 year old can't learn to fly a plane.
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The issue is the much greater consequences of an error in a much less forgiving and much more challenging environment than even MX racing.
 
SethV said:
They bill for the airplane when the prop is turning. Regular rate for the 172 is $106/hr. The instructor fee is $40, and that is billable for any time spent with him including ground instructions. They offered 6 hours of flying time and 10 hours of instructor time for $777. Also came with a leather log book and a couple text books. What do you think? I am a newbie so thanks for looking out for me!
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Sounds good to me. Too many places skimp on the ground side, so building it into the program makes a lot of sense. Learn on the ground, practice in the air -- the cockpit is just too poor a classroom.
 
Ron Levy said:
The issue is the much greater consequences of an error in a much less forgiving and much more challenging environment than even MX racing.
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It ain't that hard, and the kid won't be solo for 4-6 years.
 
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