Fatality Crash KHOU looks like a Cirrus

I normally put some lead in the tail to get the CG back to where I liked it, which would produce some nice inverted flat spins:)
Now you're making me reach way back in my memory... someone used to use lead weights on a pulley system. They could run them back and forth to adjust CG!
 
The way I was told when training with a very experienced aerobatic pilot in a Pitts is, if you intentionally get in one, you can get out. If you end up in one by mistake, you probably won't.

All you have to do to recover a flat spin in a Pitts (and most aerobatic airplanes) is pull power and neutralize the controls - same as any other type of spin. There is a specific type of emergency spin recovery training for aerobatic pilots to enable them to recover any unintentional spin.

However, unless you are flying an airplane that is a known quantity regarding spin characteristics across the entire matrix of spin types, all bets are off. There are many airplanes that nobody knows if a flat spin is possible (or recoverable), because it hasn't been tested. I wouldn't suggest trying a flat spin in your Bonanza with full tip tanks. You won't recover.
 
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Now you're making me reach way back in my memory... someone used to use lead weights on a pulley system. They could run them back and forth to adjust CG!

Haha! That is crazy.

Wouldn't have been a bad idea. My airplanes were so tail heavy that they were pretty hard to land:)
 
All you have to do to recover a flat spin in a Pitts (and most aerobatic airplanes) is pull power and neutralize the controls - same as any other type of spin. There is a specific type of emergency spin recovery training for aerobatic pilots to enable them to recover any unintentional spin.
It's been a long time since my Pitts training. So in a flat spin, you don't have much air going over the controls. You have to pull power and neutralize the controls, but wait for the nose to fall and build speed, right? In a traditional spin, you're already nose down.
 
Being new to aviation, I have a question. I took my first hour intro the other day, loved it. It was both thrilling and exhilarating.. and a bit nerve wrecking.

This news freaked me out. Question may be a fantasy, but is there a plane out there that prevents you from stalling / spinning?
 
It's been a long time since my Pitts training. So in a flat spin, you don't have much air going over the controls. You have to pull power and neutralize the controls, but wait for the nose to fall and build speed, right? In a traditional spin, you're already nose down.

In aerobatic airplanes, a true flat spin requires high power. This produces a good bit of propwash over the tail surfaces even though the relative wind from the airplane's vertical trajectory is from below. Pulling power and neutralizing the controls works in most aerobatic airplanes as an emergency recovery technique, but you can recover a little more quickly by leaving full power in, and applying opposite rudder, forward stick, and in-spin aileron. It's very controllable and predictable. Airshow pilots always leave power in when recovering flat spins. But that is active, precision recovery, which is a totally different concept from emergency spin recovery, which all aerobatic pilots need to have in their back pocket in case they end up in an accidental spin and are confused by what they are seeing.
 
It's been a long time since my Pitts training. So in a flat spin, you don't have much air going over the controls. You have to pull power and neutralize the controls, but wait for the nose to fall and build speed, right? In a traditional spin, you're already nose down.

Unlike a spin where you pull power, I would think in a flat spin you should go full power, elevators down, the airflow from the prop over the tail will cause the plane to go nose down.
 
Unlike a spin where you pull power, I would think in a flat spin you should go full power, elevators down, the airflow from the prop over the tail will cause the plane to go nose down.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on aircraft characteristics. But if you find yourself in a flat spin in a non-aerobatic airplane, you are most likely now a test pilot and free to invent the best recovery procedure on the spot. :)
 
What about the W/B tendencies of a Cirrus? Considering two front seat pax, one rear seat pax, some luggage and an hour or two of fuel, would that tend to push the CG pretty far back?

I know a lot of the planes I fly have to really be forced to get the CG too far back.

I'm flying a 2009 GTS SR20 which is the "loaded" version that's very similar to her 2014. I did a quick W&B on mine with estimated people weights, some cargo, and full fuel to give you an idea of what it looks like in an SR20. It could be off a little here or there based on options in their plane but probably not too far off.

FullSizeRender.jpg
 
I'm flying a 2009 GTS SR20 which is the "loaded" version that's very similar to her 2014. I did a quick W&B on mine with estimated people weights, some cargo, and full fuel to give you an idea of what it looks like in an SR20. It could be off a little here or there based on options in their plane but probably not too far off.

View attachment 45946
Thanks.
 
Being new to aviation, I have a question. I took my first hour intro the other day, loved it. It was both thrilling and exhilarating.. and a bit nerve wrecking.

This news freaked me out. Question may be a fantasy, but is there a plane out there that prevents you from stalling / spinning?

Canards. Velocities, Variezes, both home builts. There are others. There were some in production, Beech Starship I think it was called. There's another one, starts with a "P". Someone will know. There was some canard that had some problem where it just wouldn't fly anymore at some extreme angle, I guess it was a stall. They fixed it.
 
Piaggio Avanti.

485.jpg
 
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on aircraft characteristics. But if you find yourself in a flat spin in a non-aerobatic airplane, you are most likely now a test pilot and free to invent the best recovery procedure on the spot. :)

Yeah. There's a story about an AA1 that went into one. Pilot opened the canopy. It worked
 
I was taught consistently that I could tell ATC I was "unable"-- in fact I was encouraged to do it during my training! During my training, I flew out of KISP, a similar airport, to KHOU( both class C's with a mix of GA, corporate, and airlines) and was totally aware of how to respond to the tower if I needed to have their plans meet up better with mine. It baffles me that people blindly accept ATC requests without thinking about them or judging their relative safety. The pilot never should have accepted an essentially quartering tailwind landing with gusts to about max demonstrated with much better options available.

It's really so sad to say but a simple "unable 35 I'll request runway 4," would likely have saved 3 people's lives! The fact that the 737's were not accepting runway 35 should have alerted the pilot that taking runway 35 was a mistake. To me, what looks like happend was the cirus pilot could not figure out her orientation in the pattern and kept going back to the idea of landing on 35 because that's the runway she has prepped for in her mind in the first place. So once her pre-planned approach went out the window she could not figure out the pattern she could have made to runway 4. There is much evidence to support this throughout the transcripts. I think ATC did a great job of all but telling the pilot to land on runway 4 without just telling her. The only mistake the tower could be blamed for is asking her to make a tight pattern. He was obviously aware the pilot was struggling to land the plane and was likely flustered. A simple "extend your downwind and look for a 737 and report that traffic in sight. You'll follow him in." Probably would have been the best course of action. It also would have given the task saturated pilot some time to regroup and allowed her to make a longer straight in to the runway.

It's really sad and plenty can be learned from this flight. Clear sky and tailwinds to the pilot and others aboard and sympathies to the air traffic controller who is certainly stricken with grief.
 
My speculation, based on 35 years of flying, military and civilian, is that in an attempt to "keep the pattern tight" she overshot final due to the tailwind on base and cranked it around. In so doing she used too much rudder and skidded the aircraft.
But she was making a left crosswind/downwind turn to go make another shot at 04.. If you look at the ground track and compare it with the audio then it would be clear. So THIS part of the scenario was not overshooting final and setting up that classic skid/spin scenario we read about in textbooks.

Her first missed was for 04... then she made right traffic for 35.. overshot, missed... right traffic for 35... missed.. then started a left turn to rejoin left downwind for 04 and bought the farm. But thats my armchair speculation on a lot fewer years in the air than you...
 
I will be torn alive for saying this, but the current way pilots are trained does not place enough emphasis on "feeling" the airplane. An approach to flying based soley on RPM numbers and airspeeds during manuevering flight has removed the absolutely most critical element of flying which is the delicate understanding between PITCH and POWER control that is felt, seen, and heard when flying VFR. Any pilot who is unable to fly the traffic pattern without reference to any flight instruments is doing it wrong. Nearly all light GA airplanes stall in the same 14 to 18 degree AOA range. A pilot who has been taught and understands the pitch/power relationship should be able to jump into any light single and demonstrate acceptable feel for the airplane without instruments.

I challenge all CFIs to force their students to land, takeoff, stall, and fly in slow flight without reference to any flight instruments. This is the single most important part of flying that reinforces the connections in the brain that define basic attitude flying.

Once a pilot is comfortable flying the airplane without instruments they will be able to dedicate a greater portion of their brain power to managing communications and navigation tasks. Particularly at a busy airport such as Hobby.

It is my opinion that we have grown to accept mediocrity amongst the pilot community. The accident chain did not begin with her flight to Hobby airport that day. A pilot with fundamentally sound control of the airplane should never stall spin the airplane no matter how task saturated they are. There must have been warning signs before this incident that a number of CFIs or fellow pilots could have addressed.

Again, I will be torn alive for saying this, but I am of the opinion that the standards for pilot certification are far too low. The typical new pilot in the 75 to 200hr range (the killing zone) is still learning FAR too much. Passengers flying with a pilot in this range generally think it "must be okay" because this pilot passed the sport or ppl exam and is FAA certified. Little do they know, this pilot is still building the fundamental skills required for safe flight, and you are just along for the ride during all of this! The common expression, "A license to learn" actually sums this up nicely. Not everybody in this experience range is incompetent, but they are certainly on the steepest part of their personal learning curve.

Flying should be treated and respected as an art that must be mastered over time. The "Cirrus mentality" is directly contradictory to this and I believe this plays a big part in the glaringly high accident rate in this type.

Let the flaming begin.
 
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I will be torn alive for saying this, but the current way pilots are trained does not place enough emphasis on "feeling" the airplane. An approach to flying based soley on RPM numbers and airspeeds during manuevering flight has removed the absolutely most critical element of flying which is the delicate understanding between PITCH and POWER control that is felt, seen, and heard when flying VFR.

I agree to a limited extent. Once I got over the "this airspeed at this point while doing this" mentality, my approaches got way better. Because you're right... there's a certain feel and sound you get for various airspeeds/pitch etc.

I think one point that other people have brought up, however, is that the Cirrus tends to not have controls that give you that appropriate "oh crap" feel when you're starting to get into trouble.

And as a side note: Hi from a fellow South Bay dude.
 
Just now saw this. Everything has already been said.
Sounded like pure incompetence to me.
 
i have a sign off in 2001 saying i had a complete competency check out and it was signed off ,name name, chief test pilot cirrus corp on his co business card .so i could rent one if i ever wanted to. it was 4 hours dual and 2 ground sr20 . never happened that i had a need or want to rent . over a few beverages he said this thing has a parachute for a reason and a few other things .never been in one since .i am sure they are fine aircraft and very safe.
and i did not watch the video and wont . i made the mistake of listening to the audio tape and it upset me very very much. i think this thread should go away. no good shall come of it . no one will ever know what really happened and why.

If you can't learn from the mistakes of others, maybe the ground is safer for you.

Threads like this, along with the audio and video can serve as powerful reminders to encourage pilots not to do some thing stupid or beyond their own capabilities.

I guess you can learn from it or..

e9760d3e17a03b00acab2871dad74b2a.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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This crash reminds me of one in ?Florida? where a woman had issues understanding ATC. I'm not blaming ATC at all, he's trying to impart a good bit of information and provide some situational awareness of what other planes in the pattern are doing but..... a simple "left turn 220" would have gotten her pointed in the correct direction for a left downwind for runway 4.

Let me throw in a disclaimer or two. I AM NOT AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER. For all I know, he was required by law to say everything he did. I'm just saying what I'd like to hear if I was the confused pilot floundering about in busy airspace after two failed approaches.
 
.. a simple "left turn 220" would have gotten her pointed in the correct direction for a left downwind for runway 4.

Really? Were you in the tower at the time? Did you know the location of every airborne aircraft in the terminal area at the time. Sorry, its not that simple in busy Bravo airspace.

I am sorry, but this thread has gone way beyond its lifespan. Once again, everyone rushing to their own conclusions, judgments of both pilot and controller. Patience for facts in accident cases is the best behavior. Oh, wait, this is a forum...I just got to post.
 
She had just missed on 35 and you can figure by where she crashed, she was north of the airport, off-center of 35 to the left.
Air Traffic Control: “Cirrus 42-52 Golf just go ahead and make the left turn now to enter the downwind, midfield downwind for only four, if you can just give me a nice tight pattern, I’m going to have traffic four miles behind you so I need you to just kind of keep it in tight if you could. And actually I might end up sequencing behind that traffic it’s going four miles a minute, it is going to be a little bit tight with the one behind it, so when you get on that downwind, stay on the downwind and advise me when you have that 737 in site, will either do four or we might swing you around to 3-5. Uh ma’am, ma’am straighten up straighten up.”

Someone already made my point. Carry on.
 
i have a sign off in 2001 saying i had a complete competency check out and it was signed off ,name name, chief test pilot cirrus corp on his co business card .so i could rent one if i ever wanted to. it was 4 hours dual and 2 ground sr20 . never happened that i had a need or want to rent . over a few beverages he said this thing has a parachute for a reason and a few other things .never been in one since .i am sure they are fine aircraft and very safe.
and i did not watch the video and wont . i made the mistake of listening to the audio tape and it upset me very very much. i think this thread should go away. no good shall come of it . no one will ever know what really happened and why.
With a " complete checkout" in 2001 ( whatever that means) and the ability to rent one wherever , which I doubt.( you'd sure have to go thru the paces again before most FBOS would turn you loose if they were in their right mind. ) this type of attitude could easily turn out to be why this girl crashed taking two others out with her. She stalled the airplane at low altitude and died. So now you have a pretty good idea of why she crashed.
 
i was never going to post in this thread again but i have been fully quoted so many times i must. you must read my first/only post very carefully. and i am shocked no one got what i was saying . also i chose to never rent one by choice ,but fully expected a fbo check out if i ever did.
 
over a few beverages he said this thing has a parachute for a reason and a few other things .

The problem with listening to someone who has had "a few beverages" is it can go either way. They can be letting down their guard and telling the truth, or BS'ing you. So which is it? I don't think I'd be basing my purchasing decisions on the rantings of someone liquored up.
 
But she was making a left crosswind/downwind turn to go make another shot at 04.. If you look at the ground track and compare it with the audio then it would be clear. So THIS part of the scenario was not overshooting final and setting up that classic skid/spin scenario we read about in textbooks.

Her first missed was for 04... then she made right traffic for 35.. overshot, missed... right traffic for 35... missed.. then started a left turn to rejoin left downwind for 04 and bought the farm. But thats my armchair speculation on a lot fewer years in the air than you...
I was mistaken thinking that she lost it on the turn to 35 final. Instead of an approach to landing stall/spin it looks like she lost it on the crosswind turn. Doesn't change the fact that she may have pulled harder and skidded the turn trying to "keep it tight."
 
I will be torn alive for saying this, but the current way pilots are trained does not place enough emphasis on "feeling" the airplane. An approach to flying based soley on RPM numbers and airspeeds during manuevering flight has removed the absolutely most critical element of flying which is the delicate understanding between PITCH and POWER control that is felt, seen, and heard when flying VFR. Any pilot who is unable to fly the traffic pattern without reference to any flight instruments is doing it wrong. Nearly all light GA airplanes stall in the same 14 to 18 degree AOA range. A pilot who has been taught and understands the pitch/power relationship should be able to jump into any light single and demonstrate acceptable feel for the airplane without instruments.

I challenge all CFIs to force their students to land, takeoff, stall, and fly in slow flight without reference to any flight instruments. This is the single most important part of flying that reinforces the connections in the brain that define basic attitude flying.

Once a pilot is comfortable flying the airplane without instruments they will be able to dedicate a greater portion of their brain power to managing communications and navigation tasks. Particularly at a busy airport such as Hobby.

It is my opinion that we have grown to accept mediocrity amongst the pilot community. The accident chain did not begin with her flight to Hobby airport that day. A pilot with fundamentally sound control of the airplane should never stall spin the airplane no matter how task saturated they are. There must have been warning signs before this incident that a number of CFIs or fellow pilots could have addressed.

Again, I will be torn alive for saying this, but I am of the opinion that the standards for pilot certification are far too low. The typical new pilot in the 75 to 200hr range (the killing zone) is still learning FAR too much. Passengers flying with a pilot in this range generally think it "must be okay" because this pilot passed the sport or ppl exam and is FAA certified. Little do they know, this pilot is still building the fundamental skills required for safe flight, and you are just along for the ride during all of this! The common expression, "A license to learn" actually sums this up nicely. Not everybody in this experience range is incompetent, but they are certainly on the steepest part of their personal learning curve.

Flying should be treated and respected as an art that must be mastered over time. The "Cirrus mentality" is directly contradictory to this and I believe this plays a big part in the glaringly high accident rate in this type.

Let the flaming begin.
Oh boy. I've never agreed with someone so much in my life.
 
A pilot who has been taught and understands the pitch/power relationship

It is mind boggling to me how many pilots do NOT understand this. I am very disappointed in my fellow instructors.

The other day I was doing a simulated engine failure with pretty experienced student pilot of about 60 hours. I only recently inherited this student from other instructors who no longer work at that flight school. Best glide in the airplane is 68 and we were doing 85. I told him he was way too fast and next thing he does is go to full flaps. I asked him why he did that he said "To slow down because you told me we were too fast!" Facepalm. Unfortunately I see this kind of thing all too often but this was a shining example.
 
Sheesh.... I said it before and I'll say it again.
She was flat out incompetent from what I heard on the tape. She didn't seem to be able to distinguish runways and ATC had to tell her to descend, then go around.

This is why several threads ago I said it's silly for a novice to go to a busy class B just to say they did it. If your not up to the challenge, just go somewhere else. This poor woman and her passengers learned a hard lesson.
 
I will be torn alive for saying this, but the current way pilots are trained does not place enough emphasis on "feeling" the airplane. An approach to flying based soley on RPM numbers and airspeeds during manuevering flight has removed the absolutely most critical element of flying which is the delicate understanding between PITCH and POWER control that is felt, seen, and heard when flying VFR. Any pilot who is unable to fly the traffic pattern without reference to any flight instruments is doing it wrong. Nearly all light GA airplanes stall in the same 14 to 18 degree AOA range. A pilot who has been taught and understands the pitch/power relationship should be able to jump into any light single and demonstrate acceptable feel for the airplane without instruments.

I challenge all CFIs to force their students to land, takeoff, stall, and fly in slow flight without reference to any flight instruments. This is the single most important part of flying that reinforces the connections in the brain that define basic attitude flying.

Once a pilot is comfortable flying the airplane without instruments they will be able to dedicate a greater portion of their brain power to managing communications and navigation tasks. Particularly at a busy airport such as Hobby.

It is my opinion that we have grown to accept mediocrity amongst the pilot community. The accident chain did not begin with her flight to Hobby airport that day. A pilot with fundamentally sound control of the airplane should never stall spin the airplane no matter how task saturated they are. There must have been warning signs before this incident that a number of CFIs or fellow pilots could have addressed.

Again, I will be torn alive for saying this, but I am of the opinion that the standards for pilot certification are far too low. The typical new pilot in the 75 to 200hr range (the killing zone) is still learning FAR too much. Passengers flying with a pilot in this range generally think it "must be okay" because this pilot passed the sport or ppl exam and is FAA certified. Little do they know, this pilot is still building the fundamental skills required for safe flight, and you are just along for the ride during all of this! The common expression, "A license to learn" actually sums this up nicely. Not everybody in this experience range is incompetent, but they are certainly on the steepest part of their personal learning curve.

Flying should be treated and respected as an art that must be mastered over time. The "Cirrus mentality" is directly contradictory to this and I believe this plays a big part in the glaringly high accident rate in this type.

Let the flaming begin.

No flaming here. All of my CFIs have spent some time teaching this to me, all the way back to the first who covered the panel with his jacket and told me to fly the damned plane.

The difficulties you'll run into (or maybe I should say that I'll run into if I ever get this CFI quest finished up) is that to raise the minimum standards for the initial pilot certificate would make something that's already hideously expensive for the average American loaded down with tens of thousands in consumer debt and hundreds of thousands, often pushing half a million, in housing debt -- would make the initial Private certificate something only a handful can even hope to fiscally accomplish.

Or so they think, anyway. (Obviously some of us figure out that debt is flat out slavery and decide to hammer the "beans and rice" diet and/or go figure out how to make a LOT more money in our careers to pay for this crazy freakin hobby... It can be done... Everyone here is proof...)

It probably also doesn't help that many older pilots started off in CHEAP to fly taildraggers with no radios and no fancy gadgets and not a thing useful in the panel to fixate on, and learned to really fly the things including listening and feeling stuff with their butt, and there are scant few opportunities to do this anymore. We can all joke about the amazing Cessna "Land O Matic" gear and their marketing of the past, but honestly, it worked. And now nosedragger pilots like myself have to work our butts off to connect our feet to our brains. Landing work in a taildragger or glider really helps get that feel for low speed ops and the sloppiness of the controls hammered into long term memory so when it happens unexpectedly, the recovery is instant and automatic.

Example: Ted's airspeed indicator thread. Stuff felt "wrong". He knew from experience the aircraft was acting like it was too slow.

I want more tailwheel time. I also want the glider ratings. It's definitely in my future lists after these CFI ratings as "important" to me. My tailwheel and glider time in my logbook is scarce and incomplete and even with only a little I see the value in both.

Energy management is where it's at! Gotta do it. Gotta know it in your ears and your butt. It has to be there or a stall horn is going to wake you up someday and hopefully you go straight to the proper recovery technique without even thinking about it. It's just got to be instant and automatic.

And that takes time. And money. And it's hard to demand more of that from folks barely able to pay for lessons. Just a really hard Catch-22.
 
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