Fatal discovery flight during takeoff at North Perry 8/4/23

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Aviator305

Pre-takeoff checklist
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"According to credible witnesses, it commenced the takeoff role. It took off, then went to a very high angle of attack, crested angle of attack at the top, did a nose down attitude -- followed promptly by a left turn and impacted the ground between the runways," said an NTSB spokesperson. "There was no post crash fire, but of course it was destroyed and resulted in the fatal loss of the two on board and the injured."
 
That's terrible. Flight path sounds just like the Snort crash. Looks like elevator is locked in neutral and trim tab is full up. Gust lock?

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Ed Haywood said:
That's terrible. Flight path sounds just like the Snort crash. Looks like elevator is locked in neutral and trim tab is full up. Gust lock?
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The elevator is laying on the ground, so I don't think you can conclude it's locked from looking at a photograph. The trim tab position is odd. I can't ever remember a time I've needed full nose-down trim in a Cessna.
 
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Kenny Phillips said:
Was this the first flight of the day?
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Yes according to FlightAware. Also shows it did not fly on the 2 days prior to the accident. Busy flight school aircraft that flew every day of previous week, which suggests perhaps maintenance of some sort.
 
Possible scared non pilot grabbing the controls causing a stall on departure??
 
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families.
 
Sad, RIP!

The elevator trim appears only on one side?
 
mandm said:
Sad, RIP!

The elevator trim appears only on one side?
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Yes, that is common on many Cessnas. In the photo, it appears to be trimmed nose up, which would be unusual right after takeoff. One of the things we teach student pilots in Cessna trainers is a full nose-up trim stall.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
Yes, that is common on many Cessnas. In the photo, it appears to be trimmed nose up, which would be unusual right after takeoff. One of the things we teach student pilots in Cessna trainers is a full nose-up trim stall.
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It's trimmed nose down, a lot. Remember the trim tab moves the elevator in the opposite direction. Very unusual trim position for a Cessna.
 
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And wires to trim tab could, possibly, maybe be compromised by the cabin crush and rescue, so NTSB will have to look closer for trim position.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That's terrible. Flight path sounds just like the Snort crash. Looks like elevator is locked in neutral and trim tab is full up. Gust lock?

View attachment 119708
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In newer 172s (At least P model on) the control locks locks the elevator full down (or nearly). The C model I flew locked at neutral.
 
DesertNomad said:
Possible seat sliding back.
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Had that happened to me in a fairly early flight and my training in 172. I have religiously checked the seat every single time before the engine even starts since then. Shocking that it’s even possible.
 
DesertNomad said:
Possible seat sliding back.
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Could be.

Had it happen once on a training flight in a Tecnam. The CFI took over while I got the seat back in place, but had I been alone I would likely have crashed.

I check the seat twice on every flight now, during pre-start and at run-up, but I still worry about it. I’d like to figure out a lock but haven’t come up with anything yet. Maybe a small c-clamp on rail?
 
Ed Haywood said:
I can't get over how straight the elevator is. Directly aligned with the hstab. But I don't know anything about the control system on a 172. Could the cabin crumpling have jammed it that way?
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Again, please describe how you know it's jammed when it's resting on the ground?
 
Ed Haywood said:
I can't get over how straight the elevator is. Directly aligned with the hstab. But I don't know anything about the control system on a 172. Could the cabin crumpling have jammed it that way?
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I suspect the gust lock is installed, my elevators look like that when installed. From the few pictures and videos I see, I don’t think the trailing edge is resting on the ground.

That said, who knows what the damage to the airframe is causing to the cables. It is hard for me to fathom trying to takeoff with the lock installed (knocks on wood)
 
Bacho said:
I suspect the gust lock is installed, my elevators look like that when installed. From the few pictures and videos I see, I don’t think the trailing edge is resting on the ground.

That said, who knows what the damage to the airframe is causing to the cables. It is hard for me to fathom trying to takeoff with the lock installed (knocks on wood)
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This is a 172P model which has significant nose-down elevator position when locked by the gust lock.
 
Even older 172s like my 1980 model has the elevator down with gust lock installed. When tied down outside, it helps prevent tailwinds from lifting the tail.

Also, on the takeoff roll with trim set properly it takes some back pressure on the yoke to rotate a 172. So that trim tab in full pitch-down position looks like a clue. Proper takeoff trim tab position is aligned with the elevator, so I speculate that the pilot couldn't push the nose down (jammed control yoke?) and tried to use the trim wheel to get the nose down. That should have worked if the control cables were severed or disconnected. Not if the yoke was jammed in place, whether with the gust lock or another reason.

Regarding the seat, there is an AD to check the seat rails on the 172 every 100 hours. And they're easily replaceable. But even if the rails are in good condition, the seat can slip back if it's not latched properly. This is on my checklist briefing for front seat passengers.
 
MRC01 said:
I speculate that the pilot couldn't push the nose down (jammed control yoke?) and tried to use the trim wheel to get the nose down. That should have worked if the control cables were severed or disconnected. Not if the yoke was jammed in place, whether with the gust lock or another reason.
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Good point. Trimming nose down raises tab up. But if elevator jammed, tab up would have opposite effect, functioning as a mini-elevator to raise the nose.
 
These last two posts were insightful.

I was thinking, “if a student pilot froze and the instructor couldn’t get them to stop, would the instructor revert to trim use?” Don’t know the answer to that, but they would have to plan that ahead of time. I’m also not sure how effective it would even be with a full elevator deflection on a C172.

If a control lock were left in it wouldn’t be unreasonable to think that an incorrect trim was also missed. But, as others have said a control lock on this C-172 would show a different elevator position than what is seen in the photo. Can a control wheel lock be removed in flight when there are loads on the flight controls? Don’t know.

Does the C172P have any issue with the trim tab indicator not reading the actual trim setting? I think it’s referred to as “coming off the tracks.” I know the trim appears to be set for nose down, but curious.

As mentioned up thread, if it was in maintenance prior to this flight, there is a high probability of it being related.
 
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TrueCourse said:
If a control lock were left in....
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I don’t know how it’s configured in a 172, but in my Beech the control lock has a tab that covers the ignition key, making it impossible to start the plane with the lock in place. Is that not the case in a 172?
 
Nope. Simple rod through a hole in the tube that connects the yoke to the control column.

Seems it would be an easy thing to remove even in extremis in flight. Lots of other things can jam the control column.

Angle of bank can control an otherwise uncontrollable pitch up. That requires training generally not taught in the civilian general aviation world.
 
Half Fast said:
I don’t know how it’s configured in a 172, but in my Beech the control lock has a tab that covers the ignition key, making it impossible to start the plane with the lock in place. Is that not the case in a 172?
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I've seen two different kinds at my school that has a number of 172s of different generations. There's the kind with the pin that goes through the column, and has a 'flag' that covers the ignition switch. Then there's a kind that is a bar that goes between the two yokes, locking them together, but does not cover the ignition (which is below the left-seat yoke and to the left).

However both are very obvious when installed and only someone who is completely skipping the pre-flight, where there's like three different checklist items where one would notice the lock installed, would let something like this slide. And any of the CFIs I've experience with at my school would kill any student/renter of the aircraft who exhibits this behavior if the plane didn't kill them first.
 
Possible scenario....

If the student wasn’t familiar with the seat latch, he may not have had it locked properly and then he would slide back on takeoff. The student’s natural reaction would be to grab the yoke and try to pull himself back. (The instructor may have even had the student following his movements on the yoke.) If that were happening, there’s no way the instructor would be able to overcome the student’s weight to push the yoke forward.
 
Half Fast said:
Possible scenario....

If the student wasn’t familiar with the seat latch, he may not have had it locked properly and then he would slide back on takeoff. The student’s natural reaction would be to grab the yoke and try to pull himself back. (The instructor may have even had the student following his movements on the yoke.) If that were happening, there’s no way the instructor would be able to overcome the student’s weight to push the yoke forward.
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You can overcome it, you just have to know where to push with your feet.
 
Baked Potato said:
I've seen two different kinds at my school that has a number of 172s of different generations.
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A third kind is the homemade 2 blocks of wood and bolt thru elevator or rudder gap. Those on the rudder have killed people. But that would be really obvious at the crash site. Maybe that's what the guy is pointing at?

I don't see how an elevator locked or jammed in neutral could cause that kind of pitch up. I once had a jammed control stick about halfway back to full aft in a Decathlon at altitude, and was able to maintain control in nose high MCA long enough to diagnose the issue and free the stick.

The CFI was a man, looks to be of normal build. The other person killed was a woman. Assuming she was in the front seat, I would think he would be able to overpower her in a panic situation.

A third person survived (so far), so hopefully they can provide insight on what went on in the cockpit.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Assuming she was in the front seat, I would think he would be able to overpower her in a panic situation.
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If she was clinging tightly to the yoke as her seat slid back, I doubt he could have pushed his yoke forward hard enough to overcome her, especially as the plane pitched up dramatically and gravity was on her side. He could potentially remove her hands from the yoke, if he had time before the stall. My guess is that it all happened before he knew what was going on and could react.

But it's just a guess until we get some more facts.
 
TrueCourse said:
... Does the C172P have any issue with the trim tab indicator not reading the actual trim setting? I think it’s referred to as “coming off the tracks.” I know the trim appears to be set for nose down, but curious.
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In my 1980 N model, during the pre-takeoff control check, you can pull the yoke back and see the elevator & trim tab position through the rear windows to confirm proper trim tab position regardless of where the trim wheel indicator lines up. If that doesn't match the trim wheel position indicator, then the indicator has slipped and you should re-adjust it. It could also indicate that the trim range is not properly set.

Lessons C-172 owners can learn from this tragedy: The front seats have metal safety stops bolted into the back of the rails, so if the seat slides back it only goes so far. Make sure those are installed, inspected and functional. And always make sure your front seat passenger's seat is fully latched into its position. Add to your checklist passenger briefing (you do have one, right?) that if the seat slides back on takeoff, do not grab the yoke. You don't have to grab anything, just let it slide, we can adjust it later in flight. Similar to a door popping open in flight, it is not an emergency unless you over-react and turn it into an emergency.
 
MRC01 said:
Similar to a door popping open in flight, it is not an emergency unless you over-react and turn it into an emergency.
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I was once competing in an aerobatic contest and my Decathlon door popped open as I pulled into a loop. I switched hands on the stick and re-latched the door while floating over the top of the loop inverted. No dings on my scorecard.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
I was once competing in an aerobatic contest and my Decathlon door popped open as I pulled into a loop. I switched hands on the stick and re-latched the door while floating over the top of the loop. No dings on my scorecard.
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Shouldn’t you get extra points? :)
 
MRC01 said:
In my 1980 N model, during the pre-takeoff control check, you can pull the yoke back and see the elevator & trim tab position through the rear windows to confirm proper trim tab position regardless of where the trim wheel indicator lines up. If that doesn't match the trim wheel position indicator, then the indicator has slipped and you should re-adjust it. It could also indicate that the trim range is not properly set.

Lessons C-172 owners can learn from this tragedy: The front seats have metal safety stops bolted into the back of the rails, so if the seat slides back it only goes so far. Make sure those are installed, inspected and functional. And always make sure your front seat passenger's seat is fully latched into its position. Add to your checklist passenger briefing (you do have one, right?) that if the seat slides back on takeoff, do not grab the yoke. You don't have to grab anything, just let it slide, we can adjust it later in flight. Similar to a door popping open in flight, it is not an emergency unless you over-react and turn it into an emergency.
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Cessna also offered - at no cost if I recall correctly - an inertia reel and belt fit to the underside of the seat to stop the seat if it does slide. The free program went for a couple years. Of course, the seat track should be inspected and within spec, as well as confirming the seats are locked in place prior to taxi and again prior to takeoff.
 
In my 1980 N model, during the pre-takeoff control check, you can pull the yoke back and see the elevator & trim tab position through the rear windows to confirm proper trim tab position regardless of where the trim wheel indicator lines up. If that doesn't match the trim wheel position indicator, then the indicator has slipped and you should re-adjust it. It could also indicate that the trim range is not properly set.
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The trim is set nose-down while the accident reportedly was a result of an excessive nose up attitude.

MRC01 said:
Lessons C-172 owners can learn from this tragedy: The front seats have metal safety stops bolted into the back of the rails, so if the seat slides back it only goes so far. Make sure those are installed, inspected and functional. And always make sure your front seat passenger's seat is fully latched into its position. Add to your checklist passenger briefing (you do have one, right?) that if the seat slides back on takeoff, do not grab the yoke. You don't have to grab anything, just let it slide, we can adjust it later in flight. Similar to a door popping open in flight, it is not an emergency unless you over-react and turn it into an emergency.
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We don't know that that's what happened, but it's possible. You can also get these things:
13-18510.jpg
 
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