Fast track pilot training

[Danny Dub]

My 18yr old son wants to go to flight school. Interested in airline flying.

Google keeps returning ATP (biggest marketing budget?) and that may be how he goes but I'm open to suggestions.

Prefer NC or SC as he is in the NC National Guard and will have to return for monthly guard duties.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,

Dan

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[Kritchlow]

In English please…

 

[Danny Dub]

In English please…

I've never been accused of being overly fluent in English so let me think about it and see if I can write my question in an understandable way...

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[rhkennerly]

What you should search for is “part 141 flight school". Part 141 refers to FAA regs. The three that come first to my mind are Embry-Riddle, Flight Safety, & ATP. I'm pretty sure the Wright Brothers graduated Embry-Riddle before venturing out to Kitty Hawk. I remember their ads in the flying mags back in the '60s.

141 schools are structured like universities with ground school, flight training, curriculum milestones, & testing. (In fact, there are several regular universities that have 141 schools. https://www.globalair.com/directories/Aviation-Colleges-Universities-38.html ) The operation & curriculum at 141 schools are FAA approved. These programs are designed to feed the airlines & corporate aviation. AOPA lists 436 part 141 programs in the US. https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/flight-schools. 141 schools are usually GI Bill eligible.

(Just this month, Delta was the first "big" airline to announce that they would "prefer" but no longer "require" a bachelor's degree for second-officer. However, it is unclear how that new rule will play out over a career. Nor is it clear if not having a bachelor's will hinder advancement into the left seat & movement up the Delta seniority list to the largest hardware. But for all practical purposes right now, your son can't avoid getting a bachelors degree & hope to fly big iron.)

Most of us probably trained under Part 61, a more diy process for General Aviation, but fast-tracking for the airlines wasn't our goal. There is also Part 135, which we think of as charter flights & small corporate (6 seats). A lot of rotorcraft fly under part 135.

-----------------------

Since your son already has an Army affiliation, I should point out that the Army has an (on-again, off-again) enlisted-to-Warrant Officer flight training program for those without a bachelor's. See a recruiter. From time to time the Army resurrects the Flying Sgts program. I was one in Vietnam. But I think they are gone for good.

-----------------------

a constant theme in every post here on PoA seems to have something to do with medicals. Before embarking on a long & expensive flight training program: obtain a 1st class medical.

There are many programs that will let you progress from one expensive license or certification to the next fully aware that you cannot pass the physical for 1st class. I know your son is a healthy young 18 yr old bull, but you'd be surprised what a med turns up. I had a USNA-bound nephew who suddenly turned diabetic his senior year of hs. A superb athlete & a scholar. It happens. (DUI Arrests, substance use/abuse, & alcohol are frequent deal breakers. Or at least require special investigation & approval).

Also, a career in the top tiers of aviation means having your livelihood put on the line every 6 months for 20 yrs with each medical renewal. Another nephew of mine, 50 yrs old, has been sweating marginal ECGs the last several 1st class renewals.

Hope this helps. good luck.

 

[Randomskylane]

I’ve got four kids and zero are doing something related to what they wanted to do when they were 18 ymmv

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

Hi Dan - @rhkennerly ’s post above is really helpful.

Between the lines - college degree not “required” for the major airlines but really helpful.

Airline pilots take a 1st class FAA medical every 6-months. If something comes up, they can’t fly. That’s a real risk to your career every 6-months. Lots of little quirks normal people wouldn’t consider disqualify you with the FAA.

Seems like an awesome job if you love aviation. Very expensive to earn the ratings and accumulate the minimum hours.

One concern, in my opinion, is that you are here asking this question and not your son. Make sure he’s the type to follow through before you start paying. There are tests with an FAA examiner at several points on the way up and then some time/jobs where he’ll have to slog it out to build hours (flight instructor, banner tow etc).

All major airline pilots I know have a 4-year college degree and we’re either trained through the military or through that college (U of Illinois, Ohio State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State or Purdue. Here is a list of colleges with programs from the EAA https://www.eaa.org/eaa/youth/aviation-schools-colleges-and-programs

Good luck to your son! Pilot shortage is real right now. That could be an exciting career path (but not always a stable industry).

 

[sarangan]

Hi Dan - @rhkennerly ’s post above is really helpful.

Between the lines - college degree not “required” for the major airlines but really helpful.

Airline pilots take a 1st class FAA medical every 6-months. If something comes up, they can’t fly. That’s a real risk to your career every 6-months. Lots of little quirks normal people wouldn’t consider disqualify you with the FAA.

Seems like an awesome job if you love aviation. Very expensive to earn the ratings and accumulate the minimum hours.

One concern, in my opinion, is that you are here asking this question and not your son. Make sure he’s the type to follow through before you start paying. There are tests with an FAA examiner at several points on the way up and then some time/jobs where he’ll have to slog it out to build hours (flight instructor, banner tow etc).

All major airline pilots I know have a 4-year college degree and we’re either trained through the military or through that college (U of Illinois, Ohio State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State or Purdue. Here is a list of colleges with programs from the EAA https://www.eaa.org/eaa/youth/aviation-schools-colleges-and-programs

Good luck to your son! Pilot shortage is real right now. That could be an exciting career path (but not always a stable industry).

I agree with this statement about college degree. While college degrees may not be required now, do you really want to go with the absolute minimum credentials leaving no alternatives when things turn down? Right now demand is high and supply is low, but that can turn around very quickly. It has happened in the past. Many colleges have an aviation program that get you to the same place, but may not be as fast as some of the 141 schools. Also, one really needs to love it, and be willing to dig deeper as time goes. The lure and glamor of an airline cockpit fades quickly. Getting up at 4am, living in hotel rooms and eating at airport concession stands can get to you. I would recommend watching Nancy Bradshaw's channel on youtube. She went from training to airline pilot and has documented her whole experience. Very useful insights even for those not interested in pursuing a career in aviation.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

2nd checking out Nancy’s channel. She made it to tye right seat of a 747 recently and quit! But her guide is cover her rise as a flight instructor to regional and through the training etc.

 

[unsafervguy]

Hi Dan - @rhkennerly ’s post above is really helpful.

Between the lines - college degree not “required” for the major airlines but really helpful.

Airline pilots take a 1st class FAA medical every 6-months. If something comes up, they can’t fly. That’s a real risk to your career every 6-months. Lots of little quirks normal people wouldn’t consider disqualify you with the FAA.

Seems like an awesome job if you love aviation. Very expensive to earn the ratings and accumulate the minimum hours.

One concern, in my opinion, is that you are here asking this question and not your son. Make sure he’s the type to follow through before you start paying. There are tests with an FAA examiner at several points on the way up and then some time/jobs where he’ll have to slog it out to build hours (flight instructor, banner tow etc).

All major airline pilots I know have a 4-year college degree and we’re either trained through the military or through that college (U of Illinois, Ohio State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State or Purdue. Here is a list of colleges with programs from the EAA https://www.eaa.org/eaa/youth/aviation-schools-colleges-and-programs

Good luck to your son! Pilot shortage is real right now. That could be an exciting career path (but not always a stable industry).

there are a lot of us at majors that came up through part 61, the only thing part 141 has over part 61 is speed and it great way to spend even more money.

 

[rhkennerly]

2nd checking out Nancy’s channel. She made it to tye right seat of a 747 recently and quit! But her guide is cover her rise as a flight instructor to regional and through the training etc.

And Nancy Bradshaw started off with a BS in Aeronautical Engineering, then switched careers.

Of course, her timing was off in the market, but Nancy's experience is instructive. She also has a husband who is supportive, both of her goals and financially.

Life starting off in the regionals is....grim. Airports had to put a stop to regional pilots sleeping in the terminal because the terminals were beginning to look and smell like a flophouse--Colgan Air, I'm looking at you.

So between assignments, pilots rent floor space in an apartment or a seat in a car parked in long-term parking. Mostly they live on airport food (try keeping the weight down and blood pressure under control eating that stuff).

Until you get a solid line number, life is ****.

All that time, you're ranking behind college-educated, military-trained pilots coming on board with thousands of hours of turbine and heavy experience.

 

[rhkennerly]

I agree with this statement about college degree. While college degrees may not be required now, do you really want to go with the absolute minimum credentials leaving no alternatives when things turn down? Right now demand is high and supply is low, but that can turn around very quickly. It has happened in the past.

I'm pretty sure Delta's move to accept non-degreed pilots is a temporary quick fix to drain the pool of 135 pilots. They'll have all the credentials, at least 1500 hours pic, plus likely turbine and several type ratings under their belt--king airs, lears, sabre, gulfstreams, etc.

An analogy Dan's son can understand since he's NG: We've spent 20 yrs at war. People coming onboard the military, particularly combat arms, are joining a service created by combat veterans, to revere combat veterans, and to perpetuate combat veterans. That person joining the Army today will be forever stuck behind a large pool of service members who have combat ribbons and campaign badges. It happened after Vietnam, too.

The same goes for a person joining the airlines without a degree.

 

[tree96]

My 18yr old son wants to go to flight school. Interested in airline flying.

Google keeps returning ATP (biggest marketing budget?) and that may be how he goes but I'm open to suggestions.

Prefer NC or SC as he is in the NC National Guard and will have to return for monthly guard duties.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,

Dan

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

check blue line aviation around Raleigh. I looked into them to do a single engine commercial 5 day course. They have grown over the last couple years.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@unsafervguy did you have a college degree too?

I am not loaded up with aviation friends but my understanding is, even part 61, to get to the majors you needed a 4-year degree.

Acknowledging the recent Delta announcement.

 

[unsafervguy]

I'm pretty sure Delta's move to accept non-degreed pilots is a temporary quick fix to drain the pool of 135 pilots. They'll have all the credentials, at least 1500 hours pic, plus likely turbine and several type ratings under their belt--king airs, lears, sabre, gulfstreams, etc.

An analogy Dan's son can understand since he's NG: We've spent 20 yrs at war. People coming onboard the military, particularly combat arms, are joining a service created by combat veterans, to revere combat veterans, and to perpetuate combat veterans. That person joining the Army today will be forever stuck behind a large pool of service members who have combat ribbons and campaign badges. It happened after Vietnam, too.

The same goes for a person joining the airlines without a degree.

I think delta's change is to cover them legally since they have signed flow thru agreements with regionals that have pilots without degrees.

@unsafervguy did you have a college degree too?

I am not loaded up with aviation friends but my understanding is, even part 61, to get to the majors you needed a 4-year degree.

Acknowledging the recent Delta announcement.

yes i do, however, i came up through a regional with a flow program. the regional did not require a college degree. even the majors that do not have a college degree requirement overwhelmingly hire pilots with degrees. even the regional's mostly only took people with degrees when hiring was slow, other times, like now, only a pulse is required.

 

[jordane93]

Has he taken an intro flight? And can he hold a first class medical? It’s a very good time to get into the airlines.

 

[SkyDog58]

Where in NC is he stationed in the guard? Where does he actually live? There are both Part 61 & 141 schools in the state. Personally, I prefer the Part 61 schools. There is an ATP location at JQF/Concord if you are leaning that direction. It is one of their Part 61 locations. They seem to have good aircraft availability but are a bit pricy. But there are other schools in the greater Charlotte area that should meet his requirements as well. Knowing where he lives and how far he is willing to travel will assist with getting better recommendations.

 

[bflynn]

Where in NC? It makes a difference if he is in Raleigh or Charlotte vs Murphy or Manteo.

Near Raleigh, Blue Line aviation flies out of Johnston County and is an alternative to ATP. There are advantages and disadvantages there - money probably goes further because you don’t have so much ground time in the class C, but you miss out on the constant class C radio work. I will note RDU recently raised GA rates and a lot of people, including Blue Line, left because of how expensive it got. The parking area we used went from ~15 airplanes to 4.

Others in the Raleigh area, Total Flight Solutions at Louisberg and Flightgest at RDU

the FAA has a search page to find 141 schools by state. https://av-info.faa.gov/PilotSchool.asp

 

[Danny Dub]

Where in NC is he stationed in the guard? Where does he actually live? There are both Part 61 & 141 schools in the state. Personally, I prefer the Part 61 schools. There is an ATP location at JQF/Concord if you are leaning that direction. It is one of their Part 61 locations. They seem to have good aircraft availability but are a bit pricy. But there are other schools in the greater Charlotte area that should meet his requirements as well. Knowing where he lives and how far he is willing to travel will assist with getting better recommendations.

Sorry yes I should be more specific. He will based in Salisbury. So ATP near CLT is a good option. I look forward to chatting with Blue Line Aviation. The Academy of Aviation in Gastonia has a few red flags but I haven't ruled them out completely.

We figure anything within a couple hours of his guard station is workable.

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[Danny Dub]

What you should search for is “part 141 flight school". Part 141 refers to FAA regs. The three that come first to my mind are Embry-Riddle, Flight Safety, & ATP. I'm pretty sure the Wright Brothers graduated Embry-Riddle before venturing out to Kitty Hawk. I remember their ads in the flying mags back in the '60s.

141 schools are structured like universities with ground school, flight training, curriculum milestones, & testing. (In fact, there are several regular universities that have 141 schools. https://www.globalair.com/directories/Aviation-Colleges-Universities-38.html ) The operation & curriculum at 141 schools are FAA approved. These programs are designed to feed the airlines & corporate aviation. AOPA lists 436 part 141 programs in the US. https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/flight-schools. 141 schools are usually GI Bill eligible.

(Just this month, Delta was the first "big" airline to announce that they would "prefer" but no longer "require" a bachelor's degree for second-officer. However, it is unclear how that new rule will play out over a career. Nor is it clear if not having a bachelor's will hinder advancement into the left seat & movement up the Delta seniority list to the largest hardware. But for all practical purposes right now, your son can't avoid getting a bachelors degree & hope to fly big iron.)

Most of us probably trained under Part 61, a more diy process for General Aviation, but fast-tracking for the airlines wasn't our goal. There is also Part 135, which we think of as charter flights & small corporate (6 seats). A lot of rotorcraft fly under part 135.

-----------------------

Since your son already has an Army affiliation, I should point out that the Army has an (on-again, off-again) enlisted-to-Warrant Officer flight training program for those without a bachelor's. See a recruiter. From time to time the Army resurrects the Flying Sgts program. I was one in Vietnam. But I think they are gone for good.

-----------------------

a constant theme in every post here on PoA seems to have something to do with medicals. Before embarking on a long & expensive flight training program: obtain a 1st class medical.

There are many programs that will let you progress from one expensive license or certification to the next fully aware that you cannot pass the physical for 1st class. I know your son is a healthy young 18 yr old bull, but you'd be surprised what a med turns up. I had a USNA-bound nephew who suddenly turned diabetic his senior year of hs. A superb athlete & a scholar. It happens. (DUI Arrests, substance use/abuse, & alcohol are frequent deal breakers. Or at least require special investigation & approval).

Also, a career in the top tiers of aviation means having your livelihood put on the line every 6 months for 20 yrs with each medical renewal. Another nephew of mine, 50 yrs old, has been sweating marginal ECGs the last several 1st class renewals.

Hope this helps. good luck.

Thanks for the thoughtful write up. I should have mentioned that I am an airline pilot so the lingo makes sence to me but the training landscape has changed in the couple decades since I went through the process!

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[Danny Dub]

Has he taken an intro flight? And can he hold a first class medical? It’s a very good time to get into the airlines.

Yes he has his medical (3rd class but won't have any issues making it for a 1st). He actually flew some in high school (soloed a 172) but football season and covid and everything else kind of derailed his progress. He has 20 or so hours but at this point he considers himself a zero time pilot.

I agree it is a very good outlook for the airlines right now. I currently fly for AA and the hiring rate is crazy!

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[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

LOL. You set us up!

 

[rhkennerly]

I think delta's change is to cover them legally since they have signed flow thru agreements with regionals that have pilots without degrees.

yes i do, however, i came up through a regional with a flow program. the regional did not require a college degree. even the majors that do not have a college degree requirement overwhelmingly hire pilots with degrees. even the regional's mostly only took people with degrees when hiring was slow, other times, like now, only a pulse is required.

Didn’t know about the flow through. Tnx.

 

[rhkennerly]

I agree it is a very good outlook for the airlines right now. I currently fly for AA and the hiring rate is crazy!

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ha! A dark horse. Still, in your opinion, can he close the 1200 hr pic gap before the majors fill up?

 

[bflynn]

Sorry yes I should be more specific. He will based in Salisbury. So ATP near CLT is a good option. I look forward to chatting with Blue Line Aviation. The Academy of Aviation in Gastonia has a few red flags but I haven't ruled them out completely.

We figure anything within a couple hours of his guard station is workable.

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none of the options I listed will work for Salisbury, that is nearly a 2 hour drive away. But there should be many other along I-85 between Greensboro and Charlotte.

 

[jordane93]

Yes he has his medical (3rd class but won't have any issues making it for a 1st). He actually flew some in high school (soloed a 172) but football season and covid and everything else kind of derailed his progress. He has 20 or so hours but at this point he considers himself a zero time pilot.

I agree it is a very good outlook for the airlines right now. I currently fly for AA and the hiring rate is crazy!

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if I were him, I’d just try to get my ratings ASAP. Usually schools like ATP or other big 141 schools will get him there but are pricey. Or he could buy a plane and use it for all of his ratings. Either way, it will be a good idea to get ahead of this hiring wave.

 

[Rich Holt]

He might want to check out RTAG as well. They have a ton of good information for those on AD/Reserves or vets trying to transition to the airlines. Free money for flight training, can't be all that bad.

Also, your son could look into a Liberty U affiliate to enroll in their aviation degree program with a (local) flight training affiliate. They are all over.

 

[Danny Dub]

ha! A dark horse. Still, in your opinion, can he close the 1200 hr pic gap before the majors fill up?

I personally think the hiring will continue for the foreseeable future, but anything can happen.

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