Failing iPad on check ride?

lancie00

lancie00

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lancie00
I'm starting to think about my IFR check ride and wondered if anyone knew what the current policy was for DPE's "failing" EFB's? Obviously all DPE's are different and there's no way to know for sure what might happen, but just wondered what others experiences were recently.
My plan is to take both iPads and my phone for the check ride and have them all updated with the latest maps. Assuming the DPE will fail the first, I'll just turn on my phone and have the second iPad ready including power cords, battery packs, etc. Do you think they would fail all three? Should I have paper backups or would a correct response be to declare an emergency and request vectors to VFR?
 
On my IFR checkride, the DPE asked what I would do in the case of an iPad failure.

I had a plan and he was comfortable with it. He did not actually fail the iPad.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
My DPE told me about they last ride he did, just before mine was planned. Said guy kept playing with iPad and not using the gps in plane or instruments correctly.
Was on a missed and got screwed up. He kept fiddling with it and the DPE asked him if he needed help and he just took it, turned it off and told him the iPad failed.
The guy didn’t pass his checkride.
 
lancie00 said:
I'm starting to think about my IFR check ride and wondered if anyone knew what the current policy was for DPE's "failing" EFB's? Obviously all DPE's are different and there's no way to know for sure what might happen, but just wondered what others experiences were recently.
My plan is to take both iPads and my phone for the check ride and have them all updated with the latest maps. Assuming the DPE will fail the first, I'll just turn on my phone and have the second iPad ready including power cords, battery packs, etc. Do you think they would fail all three? Should I have paper backups or would a correct response be to declare an emergency and request vectors to VFR?
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I had paper for everything. I did bring my iPad in cockpit but didn’t use it. If you pull out a backup iPad or phone when they fail first one, they’ll fail the rest.
 
I only used my IPAD for writing clearances and weather on my instrument check ride. Charts are in the airplane, IPAD was back up. If your charts are in the IPAD only then I would have a back up to that, but gps or nav in airplane is what you should be using to navigate.
 
lancie00 said:
I'm starting to think about my IFR check ride and wondered if anyone knew what the current policy was for DPE's "failing" EFB's? Obviously all DPE's are different and there's no way to know for sure what might happen, but just wondered what others experiences were recently.
Click to expand...

This was a difference of opinion between my instructor and I towards the end of my IFR training recently. He wanted me to go fly some approaches with nothing more than a paper copy of the plate and not my iPad and not the GPS in the plane. I asked him to go walk around the FBO and find me a paper approach plate. He couldn't do it. I printed a couple and we did just to put him at ease.

We virtually all use EFBs. I carry the iPad I use on the yoke and I carry my phone with Foreflight. On longer X/Cs I carry my 2nd larger iPad as well. The DPE wanted me to use every tool on the checkride that I would on a normal flight. I loaded the approaches in the GPS, set up the VOR for the cross-fixes and step downs but for the FAF he said said don't get head down doing that switching between the one prior (as it's both a VOR and radial change). Use the GPS to mark that fix. That's what it's there for. Going to holding? He said sanity check yourself on the GPS and iPad for proper holding to see if you need to do a wind adjustment. He didn't fail anything except the AI/DG for a partial panel RNAV approach.

A very fair and practical DPE IMO. I had enough check rides in the military that were trivia quizzes and flying unicorn scenarios. This was a solid procedure/scenario driven checkride that emphasized standardized procedures against the standards.



 
I think it's more than fair to fail the GPS receiver part. To fail it completely in this day and age would be like failing a paper chart by throwing it out the window.
 
Hi.
I would stay away from using any device that is Not FAA approved during check rides. If you are using one, for charts tell the DPE what and when you will use it and see what he / she accepts.
Don't get distracted. Use what came with the acft and make sure can use any or all of them, you may be asked to do something that is not commonly used, like in a back up case, or what if this or that fails.
 
Thanks for the replies. I should have noted that we do not yet have GPS in the plane. (I know, we're cave men.) Right now I only use the iPad for charts, approach plates and situational awareness. I'm fully prepared to, at a minimum, to have the DPE turn off the location services so I can't see where I am on a plate or en route. I'm just hoping I don't need hard copies of all of the en route charts and approach plates. That would be a waste of money to me because I don't ever see myself ever using them. If all 3 iDevices fail, I'm declaring an emergency and requesting vectors.
 
lancie00 said:
Thanks for the replies. I should have noted that we do not yet have GPS in the plane. (I know, we're cave men.) Right now I only use the iPad for charts, approach plates and situational awareness. I'm fully prepared to, at a minimum, to have the DPE turn off the location services so I can't see where I am on a plate or en route. I'm just hoping I don't need hard copies of all of the en route charts and approach plates. That would be a waste of money to me because I don't ever see myself ever using them. If all 3 iDevices fail, I'm declaring an emergency and requesting vectors.
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I actually carry 2 IPad's. one that I am using and one as a backup. Almost all subscriptions to charts, or Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, etc allow for 2 units for one subscription.
 
While it's not required it would look good on your behalf to print out the approaches to the airport/airports you will be doing your check ride at. Digital plates are approved but they did ask what I would do. The DPE appreciated that I had printed hard copies and agreed they would be a last resort if my iphone failed too
 
Apparently my instructor had his iPad take a dump during his CFII checkride. The safest thing (and what I will be doing on my checkride in a week and a half) would be to probably have the current chart supplement and the procedures books in your bag with relevant pages (local approaches, for example) marked so that he will know that you're prepared and you'll also have something to fall back on in case he actually does reach over and take it out of your hand before starting approaches.
 
Grum.Man said:
While it's not required it would look good on your behalf to print out the approaches to the airport/airports you will be doing your check ride at. Digital plates are approved but they did ask what I would do. The DPE appreciated that I had printed hard copies and agreed they would be a last resort if my iphone failed too
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My DPE and I discussed this too. My answer to multiple EFB failures and a GPS failure in the plane was fess up to ATC and radar vectors to the nearest airport as it was a bad day getting worse and I would rather be at the bar.
 
I would think in our plane (non GPS) the DPE would fail "GPS" as in the signal is down/blocked/jammed. That way you can't just switch to another iThingy or anything else built in as it wouldn't work.

I always thought GPS issues would be extremely rare. Then on my longest trip so far (450nm) I lost it on all devices for over 5 minutes. The closest published outage was 8 states away. Its a weird feeling when you grab tablet # 2 and it doesn't work. Then you switch back to tablet # 1 use its built in GPS thinking it was the ADSB In box...and that doesn't work either. Alas, just flew the VOR with plans to land 50 miles (25min) ahead to get things figured out.
 
Passed my checkride last year. Paper charts, paper plates, and a 430W. KISS
 
benyflyguy said:
My DPE told me about they last ride he did, just before mine was planned. Said guy kept playing with iPad and not using the gps in plane or instruments correctly.
Was on a missed and got screwed up. He kept fiddling with it and the DPE asked him if he needed help and he just took it, turned it off and told him the iPad failed.
The guy didn’t pass his checkride.
Click to expand...

I see this somewhat frequently doing Instrument training. We Are tracking somewhere, but haven’t even configured the official tracking device to where are tracking and it doesn’t appear we are going to anytime soon. Knowing what is a legal tracking device and what is just for situational awareness is something every Instrument pilot needs to know.

As far as failing them on a check ride, my experience is it rare. But I won’t sending anybody to a checkride that hasn’t demonstrated they will have a backup plan. Actually I have heard from my DPE that the IPad actually failing on the check ride seems to be more of an issue. Last fail he told me about was the applicants IPad failing and while he was tinkering with it he would have busted Class C airspace had the DPE not intervened.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I used an iPad on my commercial check ride and the DPE had no problem with it and didn't fail it. Never even mentioned it. Only thing I had to do was turn off the location. I couldn't use the airplane on the screen to show me where I was. So in essence using it like a paper chart.
 
Most students, especially younger ones are going to be using iPads or some form of tablet, the examiners pretty much expect it at this point. They also expect you to be able to bring the flight to a safe conclusion if any instrument including your ipad fails. They fail panel instruments during a checkride so why not an ipad? It's certainly fair game, like others have said just have a backup. The big thing they seem to want to see is that if it fails you can still function without it.... which you should be able to do anyway.
 
brcase said:
I see this somewhat frequently doing Instrument training. We Are tracking somewhere, but haven’t even configured the official tracking device to where are tracking and it doesn’t appear we are going to anytime soon. Knowing what is a legal tracking device and what is just for situational awareness is something every Instrument pilot needs to know.

As far as failing them on a check ride, my experience is it rare. But I won’t sending anybody to a checkride that hasn’t demonstrated they will have a backup plan. Actually I have heard from my DPE that the IPad actually failing on the check ride seems to be more of an issue. Last fail he told me about was the applicants IPad failing and while he was tinkering with it he would have busted Class C airspace had the DPE not intervened.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...
I should clarify. He failed the guy because he vacated altitude while entering a missed approach hold from the unprotected side. The reason he felt this happened is that he was fumbling with his iPad constantly during a busy time of flight. For that particular missed the hold is only 1.8 miles away from field. Climbing turn. It’s busy. I practiced it a half a dozen time and when I did it it was busy. Not the time to configure your iPad- after that he failed the iPad. And I guess the guy got flustered.
Sound reasons to no pass an instrument ride.
 
Walboy said:
If he was ready with a backup plan, I could see how you could actually impress an examiner with a real world teaching moment on a CFII checkride. Hope it didn't result in a bust.
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Oh, no. He passed. This kid has his head on way straight and knows his stuff. Always great flying with him and tons of useful insight.
 
Always have a Plan B, and be working on Plan C. Doesn't just apply to iPads either...
 
Pugs said:
My DPE and I discussed this too. My answer to multiple EFB failures and a GPS failure in the plane was fess up to ATC and radar vectors to the nearest airport as it was a bad day getting worse and I would rather be at the bar.
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If I were the DPE I would say we are in an area without ATC radar coverage.
 
aterpster said:
If I were the DPE I would say we are in an area without ATC radar coverage.
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Sure. And I just had 4 other failures plus I'm in hard IMC and then there are flying pigs I just hit....... I've played the cascading failures game before and we did it routinely in the Prowler sim for checkrides. I don't think I ever had a NATOPS checkride where at some point the failures got complex and catastrophic enough that we didn't have to eject. That's a lesson too. When is it over to the point that drastic moves are needed.

Have a game plan but as some point when you're so deep with other/then/else it's not really an assessment of headwork anymore. It's simply someone playing stump the chump for their ego.
 
Pugs said:
Sure. And I just had 4 other failures plus I'm in hard IMC and then there are flying pigs I just hit....... I've played the cascading failures game before and we did it routinely in the Prowler sim for checkrides. I don't think I ever had a NATOPS checkride where at some point the failures got complex and catastrophic enough that we didn't have to eject. That's a lesson too. When is it over to the point that drastic moves are needed.

Have a game plan but as some point when you're so deep with other/then/else it's not really an assessment of headwork anymore. It's simply someone playing stump the chump for their ego.
Click to expand...

Not the way I see it. Non-radar procedures need to be taught if you want to fly safety in the inter-mountain West or Alaska. Even when everything on the airplane is working you need to know how to fly non-radar, full route into places like Ely, Nevada, or even some airport in Texas that is in a "radar hole."
 
aterpster said:
Not the way I see it. Non-radar procedures need to be taught if you want to fly safety in the inter-mountain West or Alaska. Even when everything on the airplane is working you need to know how to fly non-radar, full route into places like Ely, Nevada, or even some airport in Texas that is in a "radar hole."
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Certainly. Non-radar and reporting is a good idea. Now, to combine that with 4 cascading failures just seems silly to me as anything but a theoretical discussion but I guess as a newbe here I'm learning that's sort of the norm here. I'll pitch out of the fight and see what other people think.
 
Pugs said:
Certainly. Non-radar and reporting is a good idea. Now, to combine that with 4 cascading failures just seems silly to me as anything but a theoretical discussion but I guess as a newbe here I'm learning that's sort of the norm here. I'll pitch out of the fight and see what other people think.
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We practice these kinds of scenerio's hoping we learn enough to handle any actual scenerio that might come along, even the ones we didn't think possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232
As I recall an engine failure and loss of 3 independent hydraulic systems was not thought to be possible, until it happened.



Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
My CFI has done that on me in practice. Shut off ForeFlight and asked me what I was going to do. Paper paper paper. I print out approaches I’ll need for the flight - within reason. I even have back up charts for en route. It’s not just a check ride issue - what will you do when the iPad overheats and shuts off. I’m not using my phone as a back up for approach plates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tommar98 said:
My CFI has done that on me in practice. Shut off ForeFlight and asked me what I was going to do. Paper paper paper. I print out approaches I’ll need for the flight - within reason. I even have back up charts for en route. It’s not just a check ride issue - what will you do when the iPad overheats and shuts off. I’m not using my phone as a back up for approach plates.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Pull out the other iPad you have in your flight bag?

Kidding aside, I am with you... I have the paper plates and chart handy at all times..
 
brcase said:
We practice these kinds of scenerio's hoping we learn enough to handle any actual scenerio that might come along, even the ones we didn't think possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232
As I recall an engine failure and loss of 3 independent hydraulic systems was not thought to be possible, until it happened.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

Very familiar. Capt Haynes came to NAS Whidbey and gave a really great presentation on crew coordination.
 
Pugs said:
Certainly. Non-radar and reporting is a good idea. Now, to combine that with 4 cascading failures just seems silly to me as anything but a theoretical discussion but I guess as a newbe here I'm learning that's sort of the norm here. I'll pitch out of the fight and see what other people think.
Click to expand...
Agree. At my airline we called those compound emergencies. The training department do not do those. The assumption was you could put it together if a compound emergency happened on the line.
 
Be prepared for it. If it doesn’t “fail,” great. Have a back up plan.
 
aterpster said:
Agree. At my airline we called those compound emergencies. The training department do not do those. The assumption was you could put it together if a compound emergency happened on the line.
Click to expand...
One of my recurrents was like that until the sim instructor tapped me on the shoulder and said the sim is acting up and cleared the EICAS message. We just thought he was a tough instructor:)
 
Walboy said:
I have seen yoke mounted iPads in sunlight shut off due to overheating here in AZ. I have heard others say the same thing. So complete iPad failure is a real possibility at times. I could see how it can fail completely at precisely the wrong time. That said, I still think EFBs are the way to go provided adequate precautions are taken.
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I’ve had iPad shut down from too much time in direct sunlight. HOT
A few minutes on the floor and it would power up again.

I normally have paper approach plates for those planned.
 
iPads didn't exist when I took my first instrument check ride, or my second one. No I did not fail.

But if I had to take one today I would not use an iPad. I would take the check ride with the instruments in the aircraft, because bottom line, the DPE can require it if they want to. Once the check ride is over, I would probably always have my iPad with me.
 
alfadog said:
Passed my checkride last year. Paper charts, paper plates, and a 430W. KISS
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I would have to agree, it was the same scenario during my checkride. My instructor had me so petrified the DPE was going to fail my iPad and 430 I did everything old school. My DPE was actually angry and wondered why I didn’t use all the tools in my toolbox... go figure.
 
Jamie696 said:
I would have to agree, it was the same scenario during my checkride. My instructor had me so petrified the DPE was going to fail my iPad and 430 I did everything old school. My DPE was actually angry and wondered why I didn’t use all the tools in my toolbox... go figure.
Click to expand...

Ya, should have left the iPad in the car, I guess. I didn't bring one.
 
SToL said:
But if I had to take one today I would not use an iPad. I would take the check ride with the instruments in the aircraft, because bottom line, the DPE can require it if they want to. Once the check ride is over, I would probably always have my iPad with me.
Click to expand...
As @Jamie696 noted, examiners prefer to see you do things the way you would in real life. It’s probably also in your best interest to do things the way you normally would.

I’ve never understood why people get so wrapped around the axle about not demonstrating reality on a checkride.
 
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