Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
It wasn't clear to me who actually "hired" the CFI in this case.
I requested a CFI. The CFI was arranged by the seller (personal friend).
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It wasn't clear to me who actually "hired" the CFI in this case.
If the demo flight had actually been a demo flight, I would have paid the pilot without question, whether I went forward with the purchase or not.OOC, how was the pilot going to be paid if the demo ride went well and you bought the plane? From your earlier posts, it sounds as though the pilot was a local guy who did not incur any expense or inconvenience other than showing up at the airport. If so, $300 sounds like a hose job to me.
I will say this - for those that asked 'how would I feel if I had been the pilot'....well, as a commercially licensed and free lance professional pilot myself, I can honestly say that if I had been the pilot on a debacle of a demo flight as that was, I would not have asked for anything.....but that is just me. I realize there is a great disparity between CFI pay. I have seen everything from CFIs who do accelerated courses charging the equivalent of 8 hrs a day instruction whether you use it or not to CFIs who charge by just what is on the Hobbes.
You agreed $200, you pay $200. Works for me. If the CFI wants $300, that's between him and the broker who acted as his agent in the deal.For an update and some previously omitted details- the broker actually only asked for $200. The written agreement (which we never actually signed because he kept having to correct it) specified that the buyer would pay for a demo pilot not to exceed $200. It was the pilot himself that initially asked for $300.
While I am still not happy about the way the demo flight went, based on the general consensus here, I told the broker that I would go ahead and pay the fee ($200) and chalk it up as a learning experience.
You agreed $200, you pay $200. Works for me. If the CFI wants $300, that's between him and the broker who acted as his agent in the deal.
I requested a CFI. The CFI was arranged by the seller (personal friend).
I understand that you're a freelance commercial pilot, but I'd also ask what your other forms of income are.
When I had my normal 9-5 job, I didn't care about getting paid for instruction or pilot services and I simply told people to make a donation to Cloud Nine (with suggested, but not mandatory, rates). It was tax deductible for them, and I didn't need the money, so it was a nice way of bringing in a little extra money to the non-profit while putting my certificate to work.
Now my pilot certificate is how I pay my bills. As with anything, when it becomes a job that you use to buy food, your tolerance for lack of payment significantly goes down. If the pilot was expecting to get paid a certain amount for his time (whatever that was), it should have been clearly communicated. I make a point of telling my clients what I get paid.
If I was asked to make a demo flight for one of my clients, then yes, I would expect to get paid for it. If I am helping my client sell the aircraft, then I might get paid in a commission upon sale, and therefore wouldn't necessarily expect to get paid just for the demo flight. In most cases, though, I would expect payment when services are rendered.
Ok.
Be very careful. Lots of junk in these because owners can afford the purchase price but can't afford the maintenance.
Ok.
Be very careful. Lots of junk in these because owners can afford the purchase price but can't afford the maintenance.
Like I said, pilot and CFI pay varies greatly across the board from guys who charge the second they arrive at the FBO to guys who only charge for hobbes time and not for ground. Yes, the latter tend to do it because they just like to fly and they may have other sources of income.
But all that aside Ted, let me ask you this - if you were asked to do a demo flight like that and provide instruction in the plane and you were not able to give the client what they asked for (partly because you failed at your own responsibilities as PIC)....would you really charge them for all of your time?
I am just saying that if that was me, I'd be pretty damn embarrased and would have apologized and walked away.
I suspect that this retired dude (being a friend of the seller) wants to stick it to me because I refused to buy his buddy's plane....but that is just my gut feeling.
You could say I feel like I've been taken for a ride....literally.
How did the demo pilot fail at his responsibilities?
Like I said, pilot and CFI pay varies greatly across the board from guys who charge the second they arrive at the FBO to guys who only charge for hobbes time and not for ground. Yes, the latter tend to do it because they just like to fly and they may have other sources of income.
But all that aside Ted, let me ask you this - if you were asked to do a demo flight like that and provide instruction in the plane and you were not able to give the client what they asked for (partly because you failed at your own responsibilities as PIC)....would you really charge them for all of your time?
I am just saying that if that was me, I'd be pretty damn embarrased and would have apologized and walked away.
I suspect that this retired dude (being a friend of the seller) wants to stick it to me because I refused to buy his buddy's plane....but that is just my gut feeling.
You could say I feel like I've been taken for a ride....literally.
No legitimate CFI or demo-pilot would take up a prospective student/buyer without having comms to discuss the flight as it progresses, that's BS (I don't mean you telling a BS story - I mean BS behavior).
Your dispute would be with the aircraft provider, not the CFI. You made your deal for the CFI agreeing for a set price. The CFI is owned for his/her time regardless, and it ain't just the "wheels up" time, either.I feel your pain. I'd be upset too if I paid for a CFI to take me up in a plane with no intercom. If the CFI was independent and didn't know about the intercom, i'd cut the lesson short and pay him for whatever time we flew.
He agreed to pay for a CFI to log time in the plane.... because of the lack of an operational intercom, that was not able to be performed... if the CFI signed his log book as instruction given then the OP owes the CFI 200 bucks... No signature = no payment.... Simple deal.... let the broker or owner pay the CFI.
Your dispute would be with the aircraft provider, not the CFI. You made your deal for the CFI agreeing for a set price. The CFI is owned for his/her time regardless, and it ain't just the "wheels up" time, either.
Yes, the T-6's originally had intercoms (it is a 600 HP R-1340....just a wee bit louder than a J-3 cub).....and removable back sticks which instructors occasionally removed to thump the student in the front seat, which is something I seriously considered doing.I'm somewhat confused about the role of the intercom. For years people taught without them. Did the T-6 even come with one?
My issue IS actually more with the CFI here. The more I have thought about this, the more I don't think he should have continued past the runup without resolving the intercom.Your dispute would be with the aircraft provider, not the CFI.
If you book me for a whole day, and then cut things short after half an hour for your own reasons, you'll be paying me for a good bit more than half an hour.Well, in my case quoted above, the agreed upon rate is an hourly rate. I'd cut the lesson short, and pay him by his hourly rate for whatever time that was.
Again, if I have to travel to your location, you will have agreed in advance to pay my travel expenses, and there's no refund on that once I make the trip.If it meant the usual 1.5 hour lesson is cut to a half hour (handshake, fire up the plane, intercom not working) then that's what i'll pay him for. If I owned the plane, I might kick him some extra money for his gas/time driving to the airport if I thought that was appropriate.
If the CFI in the OP's case wants $300, that's between the CFI and the broker. The deal between the broker and the buyer was $200, period, and that's what I think FT owes for that part of the deal -- and only what he owes. The other $100 is the brokers's problem, not FT's concern.In the OP's case, with a $200 fixed price, kind of a grey area here. If the CFI and owner of the plane knew the intercom did not work before hand and did not mention this to me, and it was so bad that you cut the lesson short. I don't think i'd be happy about handing over $200 either. I'd probably do it though. But now if the guy wants $300...
That would not change the $200 you owe for his time, since you agreed to the price and had him called out, he showed, and you are the one who cut it short.My issue IS actually more with the CFI here. The more I have thought about this, the more I don't think he should have continued past the runup without resolving the intercom.
Perhaps......Like I said, I agreed to pay, but I still think it is a jerk move on his part to ask.That would not change the $200 you owe for his time, since you agreed to the price and had him called out, he showed, and you are the one who cut it short.
You think it is okay to start up and taxi out to the active without communicating with the back seat pilot?
I don't.
He never even looked back at me to see if I was ready to go. He taxied out did a quick runup and off we went......see what I mean by feeling like I was taken for a ride?
That is simply unprofessional flying IMO. And even aside from basic expectations of a pilot flying with another pilot or pax, how do you expect to fly a demo without communicating with the buyer?
NopeThis airplane didn't happen to be in Houston did it?
If you book me for a whole day, and then cut things short after half an hour for your own reasons, you'll be paying me for a good bit more than half an hour.
Again, if I have to travel to your location, you will have agreed in advance to pay my travel expenses, and there's no refund on that once I make the trip.
If the CFI in the OP's case wants $300, that's between the CFI and the broker. The deal between the broker and the buyer was $200, period, and that's what I think FT owes for that part of the deal -- and only what he owes. The other $100 is the brokers's problem, not FT's concern.
No one was booked for a whole day or traveled hundreds of miles here.
The op is mad because he wired ten grand and said he would pay for a ride with a cfi. Instead he got the guy's buddy (not an active cfi, no appropriate medical) who didn't do a good job. And the guy asks for more than the agreed upon $200, when legally he cannot even accept compensation?
Dude, your a little late to the thread. It may or may not be how a typical demo flight goes, but it is what I ASKED for.Regardless of the planes sale or not, the CFI did a job, he deserves to be paid.
I have never done stalls and slow flight for a demo, nor do I give instruction. Its a flight to demonstrate the plane flies, and to show the condition of the engine in actual conditions.
Its HIS issue with his medical. Trying to withold payment based on that is BS. Its not illegal for you to provide compensation, its illegal for him, to accept it. But thats on him.
His medical class didn't seem to bother anyone when you wanted instruction.
This is part of the buying process. Its a cost that the buyer pays unless they take delivery. It prevents tire kickers from joy riding toys they have no intention in buying. Instruction, maneuvers, full PPL rides come when you own the plane.
We test drove a Citation Mustang on a short business trip, then bought a Phenom. 6 months after we got a bill from Cessna for the trip. Its how it works.
Exactly. I was not being a tire kicker here. If I wanted a ride in a back seat of a T-6, I could have done that for half of what I spent that day in two different T-6s in my local area.No one was booked for a whole day or traveled hundreds of miles here.
The op is mad because he wired ten grand and said he would pay for a ride with a cfi. Instead he got the guy's buddy (not an active cfi, no appropriate medical) who didn't do a good job. And the guy asks for more than the agreed upon $200, when legally he cannot even accept compensation?
Its HIS issue with his medical. Trying to withold payment based on that is BS. Its not illegal for you to provide compensation, its illegal for him, to accept it. But thats on him.
I would pay him what he asks and move on. Aviation is a small world, having a rep as a non-payer/back trader isn't worth a couple of hundred dollars to me.
CFIs only need a third class medical so why the "inappropriate" medical comment?
You think it is okay to start up and taxi out to the active without communicating with the back seat pilot?
I don't.
He never even looked back at me to see if I was ready to go. He taxied out did a quick runup and off we went......see what I mean by feeling like I was taken for a ride?
That is simply unprofessional flying IMO. And even aside from basic expectations of a pilot flying with another pilot or pax, how do you expect to fly a demo without communicating with the buyer?
You need a 2nd class medical to exercise the privileges of the commercial or CFI rating and get paid to fly or instruct.
You need a 2nd class medical to exercise the privileges of the commercial or CFI rating and get paid to fly or instruct.