Failed Pre-Buy Demo Flight- Pilot Wants to be Paid

Another HUGE red flag...but of course you know this...

Fearless Tower said:
Thanks, but I'm not concerned with the legal side....we never actually signed a purchase agreement (I had to kick it back a couple times because the broker kept screwing up the terms....increasing the price, changing the delivery terms...etc).

From a legal standpoint, I believe I owe nothing. But, my concern is doing what is right and since this is my first time dealing with a broker sold airplane, that's why I am asking here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...
 
I still don't think the point that the broker wants the check for the pilot has been adequately dealt with.

I'd tell the broker to stuff it for attempting to sell a screwed up aircraft and wasting your time. And have him tell the pilot to call you directly to discuss his fee.
 
Tom-D said:
Another believer that repairing discrepancies is a portion of the inspection.

Show me that in FAR 43-D
Click to expand...

Understand that correcting discrepancies is not part of the annual inspection.....but when there are discrepancies, is the IA not required to ensure they are corrected (and document what was done to correct them) before signing the logbook saying that the aircraft is airworthy?

I suspect that the issue with the IA is that as he has established his reputation in the business, he has personally devoted his time to working more high profile jobs and for the lesser jobs, his A&Ps are doing the bulk of the work and maybe he gives a cursory glance at the airplane before signing it off.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Fearless Tower said:
Understand that correcting discrepancies is not part of the annual inspection.....but when there are discrepancies, is the IA not required to ensure they are corrected (and document what was done to correct them) before signing the logbook saying that the aircraft is airworthy?

I suspect that the issue with the IA is that as he has established his reputation in the business, he has personally devoted his time to working more high profile jobs and for the lesser jobs, his A&Ps are doing the bulk of the work and maybe he gives a cursory glance at the airplane before signing it
Click to expand...

The IA is not required to sign the plane back to service, any A&P can do that after addressing the discrepancy list.
 
Henning said:
The IA is not required to sign the plane back to service, any A&P can do that after addressing the discrepancy list.
Click to expand...

In this case, the IA has been signing it back into service.

One of the interesting things about the logs of this airplane...they just go from annual to annual. No in between entries. Not even oil changes. This was noted by my IA while he was reviewing the logs and I was on the 'demo' flight.
 
Fearless- you forgot your culpability in this situation. If the aircraft wouldn't have passed a pre-flight as you described, why did you board it? You could have shaken hands and walked away then and probably should have. My suspicion is that you had misgivings going into the deal and there was something bugging you to walk away at every opportunity.

When I have this happen and I continue in spite, I pay the tuition to give me a reminder to listen to my own misgivings rather than always hoping that you can kiss the frog.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Fearless- you forgot your culpability in this situation. If the aircraft wouldn't have passed a pre-flight as you described, why did you board it? You could have shaken hands and walked away then and probably should have. My suspicion is that you had misgivings going into the deal and there was something bugging you to walk away at every opportunity.
Click to expand...
Go back and read my earlier comments about how the events progressed. We did the pre-buy inspection AFTER the demo flight. With the exception of the badly frayed shoulder harnesses, all the other big discrepancies were identified during the pre-buy inspection after we pulled covers and panels....not the kind of stuff you would necessarily notice on a preflight.

I did alot of research on this airplane and the reputation of the IA (including talking to the president of the type club) before I ever made any arrangements for the pre-buy. Based on reputation alone, I had no reason to believe that the airplane was anything other than airworthy when I climbed in.
 
Henning said:
The IA is not required to sign the plane back to service, any A&P can do that after addressing the discrepancy list.
Click to expand...


Thats right, after the inspection is complete the IA either signs it off as airworthy or UN-airworthty. If its UN-airworhty the IA provides the owner with a discrepancy list which any A&P can later address and then the annual becomes airworthy.
 
You said the CFI only had a third class medical, did he have a commercial ticket? Can he legally charge anything for his services? Is he CFI current?

Have your local FSDO give you a ruling on the matter. All you need is his CFI number, which he should have placed in your log book as dual time. If he is current and legal, then you had a bona fide CFI, and should pay him. If he is not, then you did not get a CFI, You owe them nothing.They told you would be getting a CFI, confirm this.

-John
 
Tom-D said:
You agreed to pay for the CFI, now pay.. It doesn't matter how bad the flight was. It was his time and troubles your paying for.
Click to expand...
I agree. You bought that CFI for the day, or half-day, or whatever, at an agreed price. The CFI was there on time, and gave up other work for the day. The fact that you dismissed the CFI from further duty after a short flight doesn't change that.

Pay up.
 
If the commercial pilot came to your field and flew the plane there, why shouldn't he expect to get paid for his time? A T-6 is going to burn at least 25-40 gph, not to mention gallons of oil and maintenance on a 60 year old airframe. It'll probably cost you over $300/hr just to run the plane without an instructor.

How would you feel if you were in his position and some guy who wanted to look at a plane showed up late and then decided not to pay?
 
OOC, how was the pilot going to be paid if the demo ride went well and you bought the plane? From your earlier posts, it sounds as though the pilot was a local guy who did not incur any expense or inconvenience other than showing up at the airport. If so, $300 sounds like a hose job to me. When I was doing contract pilot work, I noticed a tendency on the part of many pilots to adopt the philosophy that "I need to be paid for X amount of time because I set aside the time for this _________ (fill in the blank) and I couldn't have taken another job, blah blah blah. Never mind the fact that they didn't have any other jobs or the prospects of obtaining them. In any event, I'd offer the guy a c-note and move on.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Be very careful. Lots of junk in these because owners can afford the purchase price but can't afford the maintenance.
Click to expand...

Same situation for many piston twins, too.
 
I have never seen a T-6/SNJ-x CFI/IP teach from the front seat, that's the student's seat. In the Fouga Jet they give you a periscope which rocks for landing from back.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Understand that correcting discrepancies is not part of the annual inspection.....but when there are discrepancies, is the IA not required to ensure they are corrected (and document what was done to correct them) before signing the logbook saying that the aircraft is airworthy?

You could have a 100 discrepancies and still be airworthy.

I suspect that the issue with the IA is that as he has established his reputation in the business, he has personally devoted his time to working more high profile jobs and for the lesser jobs, his A&Ps are doing the bulk of the work and maybe he gives a cursory glance at the airplane before signing it off.
Click to expand...

The seriousness of the discrepancies may or may not trigger the -IA to say it is not airworthy, using a fuel leak in a Mooney for an example, the MM gives the criteria for airworthiness, Although many pilots will not fly any aircraft with a fuel leak.

When you think of the two parts of airworthiness who has the last say? airworthy? un-airworthy?
 
The question of whether that CFI could legally do what he did with only a 3rd class medical is not your concern. You agreed to pay him for his time, he provided his time, and that's that.

If you really feel like he screwed you, you could always report to the FSDO in that area that he provided pilot services for pay without a medical valid at 2nd class or better, and you'll have your cancelled check as proof (he didn't sign your logbook, did he?). Consider it getting even rather than mad. Some folks might choose to let the matter drop, others might want to deliver that cold plate of revenge. Your conscience, your choice.
 
Ron Levy said:
The question of whether that CFI could legally do what he did with only a 3rd class medical is not your concern. You agreed to pay him for his time, he provided his time, and that's that.

If you really feel like he screwed you, you could always report to the FSDO in that area that he provided pilot services for pay without a medical valid at 2nd class or better, and you'll have your cancelled check as proof (he didn't sign your logbook, did he?). Consider it getting even rather than mad. Some folks might choose to let the matter drop, others might want to deliver that cold plate of revenge. Your conscience, your choice.
Click to expand...

Whom ever was responsible for obtaining the CFI should pay. Whom ever made the requirement to have the CFI in the aircraft in the first place should pay.

If this was a joint effort, enjoy trying to figure it out.
 
Tom-D said:
Whom ever was responsible for obtaining the CFI should pay. Whom ever made the requirement to have the CFI in the aircraft in the first place should pay.
Click to expand...
If that was done over the objections of the prospective buyer, I'd agree. However, FT said up front the buyer agreed in advance to pay the CFI for his time. Any dispute the buyer has with the seller is another story, but the buyer agreed to pay the CFI for his time, and the CFI provided his time, so the buyer owes the CFI for his time as agreed. The fact that only a few minutes were spent in the air doesn't change the fact that the CFI agreed to provide a certain amount of time on the job in exchange for a set fee, and if the buyer chose not to use all of the time, that's the buyer's problem, not the CFI's.

If you hire me to go somewhere and give you training for a day, and after ten minutes of flight you choose not to continue the training, you're still getting billed for the day and my round-trip travel expenses, not just for ten minutes of my time.
 
Last edited:
I do if I'm going to be in it. That will never change.

Tom-D said:
The seriousness of the discrepancies may or may not trigger the -IA to say it is not airworthy, using a fuel leak in a Mooney for an example, the MM gives the criteria for airworthiness, Although many pilots will not fly any aircraft with a fuel leak.

When you think of the two parts of airworthiness who has the last say? airworthy? un-airworthy?
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
If you hire me to go somewhere and give you training for a day, and after ten minutes of flight you choose not to continue the training, you're still getting billed for the day and my round-trip travel expenses, not just for ten minutes of my time.
Click to expand...

That's the way I work it, If you want me to come fix & fly your aircraft, I'm on the clock doorknob to doorknob.
 
$300.00 on a potential $100K+ transaction is chicken feed, pay the CFI directly and move on with life. :D
 
N747JB said:
$300.00 on a potential $100K+ transaction is chicken feed, pay the CFI directly and move on with life. :D
Click to expand...

I've changed my mind, he should stick the CFI with the bill, simply to teach him to get his money up front.
 
His time is worth something, without him you never would have gotten it off the ground and learned what you did about the airplane. Pay up, you had an agreement.
 
Ron Levy said:
The question of whether that CFI could legally do what he did with only a 3rd class medical is not your concern. You agreed to pay him for his time, he provided his time, and that's that.

If you really feel like he screwed you, you could always report to the FSDO in that area that he provided pilot services for pay without a medical valid at 2nd class or better, and you'll have your cancelled check as proof (he didn't sign your logbook, did he?). Consider it getting even rather than mad. Some folks might choose to let the matter drop, others might want to deliver that cold plate of revenge. Your conscience, your choice.
Click to expand...

Is that really necessary?? :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
If you hire me to go somewhere and give you training for a day, and after ten minutes of flight you choose not to continue the training, you're still getting billed for the day and my round-trip travel expenses, not just for ten minutes of my time.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

However, (and this is the learning thing), if you hire me, we'll have a written agreemtent that's clear on these facts beforehand, so you won't be surprised or feel "stiffed" later.

It wasn't clear to me who actually "hired" the CFI in this case.
 
+1. I thought I smelled some home cooking.

TMetzinger said:
Agreed.

However, (and this is the learning thing), if you hire me, we'll have a written agreemtent that's clear on these facts beforehand, so you won't be surprised or feel "stiffed" later.

It wasn't clear to me who actually "hired" the CFI in this case.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
If that was done over the objections of the prospective buyer, I'd agree. However, FT said up front the buyer agreed in advance to pay the CFI for his time. Any dispute the buyer has with the seller is another story, but the buyer agreed to pay the CFI for his time, and the CFI provided his time, so the buyer owes the CFI for his time as agreed. The fact that only a few minutes were spent in the air doesn't change the fact that the CFI agreed to provide a certain amount of time on the job in exchange for a set fee, and if the buyer chose not to use all of the time, that's the buyer's problem, not the CFI's.

If you hire me to go somewhere and give you training for a day, and after ten minutes of flight you choose not to continue the training, you're still getting billed for the day and my round-trip travel expenses, not just for ten minutes of my time.
Click to expand...

He didn't CFI, he was not in CFI seat. He was where the student should have been, in the front flying from go. If he is in the front seat he is providing commercial pilot services and requires the appropriate medical.
 
I don't think who sits where is the determining factor relative to whether or not instruction is being provided.

Henning said:
He didn't CFI, he was not in CFI seat. He was where the student should have been, in the front flying from go. If he is in the front seat he is providing commercial pilot services and requires the appropriate medical.
Click to expand...
 
My Opinion...

I would send a written response that you don't understand a $300 charge for a 20 minutes of flight time. I might also state how much total time you spent with the CFI. I would then request a detailed bill from the CFI stating the hourly rate and the services he provided and is charging for.

Once you have it you can confirm one that it is just the CFI and the broker isn't taking a cut. You can also negotiate what is fair. You can argue you did not agree pay for him to wait for you. If it is still unfair find two other instructors that could have provided the same service and get a quote from them as to what they would have charged. Provide this information back to them and offer to pay this amount.

If it is a rare airplane that only a few instructors can provide instruction in then $300 might be fair. But it is also fair to ask the CFI to justfiy charging that much.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Ron Levy said:
If you really feel like he screwed you, you could always report to the FSDO in that area that he provided pilot services for pay without a medical valid at 2nd class or better, and you'll have your cancelled check as proof (he didn't sign your logbook, did he?). Consider it getting even rather than mad. Some folks might choose to let the matter drop, others might want to deliver that cold plate of revenge. Your conscience, your choice.
Click to expand...

Talk about bad karma...
 
Fearless Tower said:
My idea of a demo flight is similar to yours - I want to know that everything works. Essentially demonstrate the aircraft - slow flight, stalls, steep turns. I want to get a feel as to whether the airplane is rigged properly and doesn't have any quirks other than those common to the type.

I asked for a CFI (and explained that to the broker) because I wanted to be able to count the dual toward the insurance requirement and that is where I feel I was stiffed per our agreement. This flight isn't even in my log (because there is no other way to log it other than as an observer).

As it turns out, the pre-buy alone would have made up my mind on the aircraft without the demo.
Click to expand...

Did the instructor sign your log book ?.

Could the instructor give instructions without the intercom working?

I feel your pain and see why you have an issue with how this played out..

My take is... from the moment the instructor knew the intercom was INOP he should have shut off the motor, tied down the plane and called it a failed flight lesson. It was not your fault the plane was not able to fly the intended mission... Call the CFI.. offer him a 100 bucks and write the whole mess off as a learning experience....IMHO.

And tell the broker to pound sand...
 
This event provides a significant lesson about airplane deals.

Get the paperwork in order first. That means a binding agreement containing all of the deal terms should be signed by both parties with all T's dotted and all eyes crossed. Until it's done, don't spend a dime.

If you can't get it the way you want it, you have nobody but yourself to blame when the deal changes or unwinds and you are stuck with the costs of travel and other expenses that shouldn't have been incurrred.
 
It seems like you have two completely separate transactions here. One with the seller and one with a CFI that you retained. Whether or not you purchased the plane you need to man up and pay the CFI. After all he was there because you couldn't operate the plane yourself due to low time in type. If that is due to FAA regulation or insurance requirements that isn't his problem, its your problem.

I have gotten paid before on contract flying trips that canceled before I even left the house. If you book my time and cancel it will cost you a minimum of a days pay. All my customers always pay because they know that they are paying for an option on my time.

Aviation is a very small community. Within two or three phone calls you can get to talk with someone we know in common. You are in an even smaller community when you are dealing with exotic airplanes. So do you want to be an island unto yourself over $300 because you didn't pay a guy who showed up and did what he was asked to do. If you get on the deadbeat list you have cut off many options you have in operating that aircraft.

It is just easier and cheaper to pay up and move on.

If the plane was such a POS then why did you fly in it? If you saw that the logs didn't match the stated condition of the airplane, you should have just walked away at that point.
 
I think that you, Ron and Tom have all posted your rates here prior to this discussion. I have found all of them to be very reasonable for the service provided and wouldn't hestitate to agree to those terms with you guys.

TMetzinger said:
Agreed.

However, (and this is the learning thing), if you hire me, we'll have a written agreemtent that's clear on these facts beforehand, so you won't be surprised or feel "stiffed" later.

It wasn't clear to me who actually "hired" the CFI in this case.
Click to expand...
 
If the situation was truly as you told it, I would offer $100 and tell them to sue you for the rest if they want it. Their response will determine the next step.

No legitimate CFI or demo-pilot would take up a prospective student/buyer without having comms to discuss the flight as it progresses, that's BS (I don't mean you telling a BS story - I mean BS behavior).
 
AcroBoy said:
If the commercial pilot came to your field and flew the plane there, why shouldn't he expect to get paid for his time? A T-6 is going to burn at least 25-40 gph, not to mention gallons of oil and maintenance on a 60 year old airframe. It'll probably cost you over $300/hr just to run the plane without an instructor.

How would you feel if you were in his position and some guy who wanted to look at a plane showed up late and then decided not to pay?
Click to expand...

I know how much it costs to run a T-6. I have flown one before. It burns about 30 gph. We only got up to about 2000' AFE and turned back. For the actual time running, probably burned maybe 10 gallons total. It was that short.

I did everything I could (including wiring a 10k deposit) to show that in good faith I was no tire kicker looking for a ride. If that is what I wanted, it would have been a lot cheaper to buy a ride at my home field.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
LearDriver said:
If the plane was such a POS then why did you fly in it? If you saw that the logs didn't match the stated condition of the airplane, you should have just walked away at that point.
Click to expand...

Like I said to Jay, read my comments about the timeline. The significant issues like corrosion were identified on the pre-buy inspection which occurred after the demo flight.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
wabower said:
I don't think who sits where is the determining factor relative to whether or not instruction is being provided.
Click to expand...


Correct, I believe whether there was instruction being provided to determine that; do you see evidence of billable instruction happening? No, pure demonstration. Straight up duck test quap.
 
For an update and some previously omitted details- the broker actually only asked for $200. The written agreement (which we never actually signed because he kept having to correct it) specified that the buyer would pay for a demo pilot not to exceed $200. It was the pilot himself that initially asked for $300.

While I am still not happy about the way the demo flight went, based on the general consensus here, I told the broker that I would go ahead and pay the fee ($200) and chalk it up as a learning experience.

I will say this - for those that asked 'how would I feel if I had been the pilot'....well, as a commercially licensed and free lance professional pilot myself, I can honestly say that if I had been the pilot on a debacle of a demo flight as that was, I would not have asked for anything.....but that is just me. I realize there is a great disparity between CFI pay. I have seen everything from CFIs who do accelerated courses charging the equivalent of 8 hrs a day instruction whether you use it or not to CFIs who charge by just what is on the Hobbes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top