FAA's Beef with ADHD

[ThatWontFly]

I did some searching before asking this but most posts on ADHD are about having ADHD and getting cleared by medical, but I'm wondering if anyone knows why the FAA seems to have had such a historically strong disdain for ADHD? The new process for clearing people who have had an ADHD diagnosis in the past is helpful to some, yes, but realistically in what scenario is a stable, medicated person with ADHD at a massive disadvantage than a non-medicated person? If a person is able to maintain a decent career and function, why would the FAA want them to get off meds, get a COGSCREEN, and never get back on meds? Seems A) backwards and B) way more likely to result in some adverse situation with the person off meds.

Realistically the only situation that comes to mind is meds wearing off mid-flight and someone who got through training without meds is, of course, capable of flying while un-medicated however you'd expect that anyone flying VFR will probably not have to worry about medication wearing off, and anyone IFR will probably have gone through situations where their medication wore off and they were able to handle it. Alternatively here what is stopping someone from taking more medication if the medication is wearing off? After a 16 hour leg I'd probably prefer the sleep deprived person on stimulants to a sleep deprived guy and a pot of coffee.

Per NCBI the military also seems to agree with the sentiment with ~60% of pilots considering their use beneficial or essential to operations

The use of amphetamines in U.S. Air Force tactical operations during Desert Shield and Storm​

"Of pilots who were surveyed, 65% used amphetamines during the deployment to the SWA AOR and/or during Operation Desert Storm. Pilots who used amphetamines in air operations described it as "occasional." The most frequent indications for amphetamine use were "aircrew fatigue" and "mission type." Of pilots who used amphetamines, 58-61% considered their use beneficial or essential to operations. Dextroamphetamine (5 mg every 4 h) was used effectively and without major side effects in tactical flying operations. Amphetamine use enhanced cockpit performance and flight safety by reducing the effect of fatigue during critical stages of flight."

Per NCBI -

Dextroamphetamine use during B-2 combat missions​

Results: Pilots on shorter missions used dextroamphetamine for 97% and in-flight naps for 13% of sorties. Those on longer missions used dextroamphetamine on 58% and naps on 94% of sorties. Stimulant use was not affected by pilot age, bomber experience, or long-duration experience. The opportunity to obtain in-flight sleep was limited by certain mission profiles, which influenced the decision to use dextroamphetamine. Among pilots who used the medication, 97% noted a benefit. Side effects and failure to observe benefits were uncommon.

Last reference (not a study but an article summarizing a study)

Air Force scientists battle aviator fatigue​

Results: Scientists said that while the pilots were on the medication, their performance “significantly improved,” especially after 25 hours without sleep. The pilots also sustained brain activity at almost normal levels despite their sleeplessness.

Just to get ahead of the Tarnak incident the military switched from dextroamphetamine to Modanifil...ironically another anti-ADHD medication they laud the benefits of.

FAA and Air Force/Navy are both government departments. Air Force and Navy medical research states significant benefits to fighter pilots when using drugs designed to treat ADHD. FAA takes opposite stand and disqualifies anyone for stimulant usage (per substance dependence policy?) from any meaningful flying. Arguably a functioning, medicated person with ADHD is equivalently capable to a person without ADHD but comes with the added benefit of feeling less fatigue.

If the FAA took this stance on commercial pilots I'd be irked but could understand it but the fact that you can't get a PPL while being treated is getting to be a bit ridiculous.

So, with that, is there any reason why the FAA takes the stance that they do?

Sincerely,
A really irked ME with ADHD

 

[TCABM]

As a .mil aircrew guy who was pushed both uppers and downers during OEF and OIF, don’t take too much stock in that DoD study other than it was justification done after the fact.

 

[Morgan3820]

Amphetamines under Medical supervision for occasional use during long-term multi hour missions. Versus medicating a chronic issue. I’m not sure I would call that apples to apples
But I agree that childhood ADHD diagnosis were rampant and wrong, and ill advised. And are probably not relevant to somebody getting their pilots license at age 30. My nephew was so diagnosed, and my brother tried to fight it, but the teacher told him that he would lock the kid up in the corner of the room. Personally, I would have sued the teacher.

 

[Clip4]

I did some searching before asking this but most posts on ADHD are about having ADHD and getting cleared by medical, but I'm wondering if anyone knows why the FAA seems to have had such a historically strong disdain for ADHD? The new process for clearing people who have had an ADHD diagnosis in the past is helpful to some, yes, but realistically in what scenario is a stable, medicated person with ADHD at a massive disadvantage than a non-medicated person? If a person is able to maintain a decent career and function, why would the FAA want them to get off meds, get a COGSCREEN, and never get back on meds? Seems A) backwards and B) way more likely to result in some adverse situation with the person off meds.

Realistically the only situation that comes to mind is meds wearing off mid-flight and someone who got through training without meds is, of course, capable of flying while un-medicated however you'd expect that anyone flying VFR will probably not have to worry about medication wearing off, and anyone IFR will probably have gone through situations where their medication wore off and they were able to handle it. Alternatively here what is stopping someone from taking more medication if the medication is wearing off? After a 16 hour leg I'd probably prefer the sleep deprived person on stimulants to a sleep deprived guy and a pot of coffee.

Per NCBI the military also seems to agree with the sentiment with ~60% of pilots considering their use beneficial or essential to operations

The use of amphetamines in U.S. Air Force tactical operations during Desert Shield and Storm​

"Of pilots who were surveyed, 65% used amphetamines during the deployment to the SWA AOR and/or during Operation Desert Storm. Pilots who used amphetamines in air operations described it as "occasional." The most frequent indications for amphetamine use were "aircrew fatigue" and "mission type." Of pilots who used amphetamines, 58-61% considered their use beneficial or essential to operations. Dextroamphetamine (5 mg every 4 h) was used effectively and without major side effects in tactical flying operations. Amphetamine use enhanced cockpit performance and flight safety by reducing the effect of fatigue during critical stages of flight."

Per NCBI -

Dextroamphetamine use during B-2 combat missions​

Results: Pilots on shorter missions used dextroamphetamine for 97% and in-flight naps for 13% of sorties. Those on longer missions used dextroamphetamine on 58% and naps on 94% of sorties. Stimulant use was not affected by pilot age, bomber experience, or long-duration experience. The opportunity to obtain in-flight sleep was limited by certain mission profiles, which influenced the decision to use dextroamphetamine. Among pilots who used the medication, 97% noted a benefit. Side effects and failure to observe benefits were uncommon.

Last reference (not a study but an article summarizing a study)

Air Force scientists battle aviator fatigue​

Results: Scientists said that while the pilots were on the medication, their performance “significantly improved,” especially after 25 hours without sleep. The pilots also sustained brain activity at almost normal levels despite their sleeplessness.

Just to get ahead of the Tarnak incident the military switched from dextroamphetamine to Modanifil...ironically another anti-ADHD medication they laud the benefits of.

FAA and Air Force/Navy are both government departments. Air Force and Navy medical research states significant benefits to fighter pilots when using drugs designed to treat ADHD. FAA takes opposite stand and disqualifies anyone for stimulant usage (per substance dependence policy?) from any meaningful flying. Arguably a functioning, medicated person with ADHD is equivalently capable to a person without ADHD but comes with the added benefit of feeling less fatigue.

If the FAA took this stance on commercial pilots I'd be irked but could understand it but the fact that you can't get a PPL while being treated is getting to be a bit ridiculous.

So, with that, is there any reason why the FAA takes the stance that they do?

Sincerely,
A really irked ME with ADHD

Nope, no one knows why:

• Inattention:
  • Short attention span for age (difficulty sustaining attention)
  • Difficulty listening to others
  • Difficulty attending to details
  • Easily distracted
  • Forgetfulness
  • Poor organizational skills for age
  • Poor study skills for age
• Impulsivity:
  • Often interrupts others
  • Has difficulty waiting for his or her turn in school and/or social games
  • Tends to blurt out answers instead of waiting to be called upon
  • Takes frequent risks, and often without thinking before acting
• Hyperactivity:
  • Seems to be in constant motion; runs or climbs, at times with no apparent goal except motion
  • Has difficulty remaining in his/her seat even when it is expected
  • Fidgets with hands or squirms when in his or her seat; fidgeting excessively
  • Talks excessively
  • Has difficulty engaging in quiet activities
  • Loses or forgets things repeatedly and often
  • Inability to stay on task; shifts from one task to another without bringing any to completion

 

[ateamer]

Military pilots have been through just a little bit more selection and training than most private pilots, and do certain things that we aren’t supposed to because they’re not out there flying for fun or for family transportation.

 

[ThatWontFly]

Amphetamines under Medical supervision for occasional use during long-term multi hour missions. Versus medicating a chronic issue. I’m not sure I would call that apples to apples
But I agree that childhood ADHD diagnosis were rampant and wrong, and ill advised. And are probably not relevant to somebody getting their pilots license at age 30. My nephew was so diagnosed, and my brother tried to fight it, but the teacher told him that he would lock the kid up in the corner of the room. Personally, I would have sued the teacher.

There may be an argument to be made there, but naturally the opposing argument would become diagnosed and properly medicated people are not 'equivalently capable' as people without that diagnosis and I don't think anyone wants to go there haha

Too many kids are getting diagnosed with mental health disorders these days and it's probably going to continue to get worse and will likely exacerbate the pilot shortage problems IMO

 

[Lawson_Stone]

Amphetamines under Medical supervision for occasional use during long-term multi hour missions. Versus medicating a chronic issue. I’m not sure I would call that apples to apples
But I agree that childhood ADHD diagnosis were rampant and wrong, and ill advised. And are probably not relevant to somebody getting their pilots license at age 30. My nephew was so diagnosed, and my brother tried to fight it, but the teacher told him that he would lock the kid up in the corner of the room. Personally, I would have sued the teacher.

It also became kind of a fad in the late 1980's through the 1990's to hear of adult ADHD, where adults who in most cases were quite successful in their jobs and in life were suddenly being diagnosed with "Adult ADHD" and put on medication.

 

[ThatWontFly]

As a .mil aircrew guy who was pushed both uppers and downers during OEF and OIF, don’t take too much stock in that DoD study other than it was justification done after the fact.

I see, unfortunately they're the only people who've conducted actual studies on this that I could find

 

[Morgan3820]

It also became kind of a fad in the late 1980's through the 1990's to hear of adult ADHD, where adults who in most cases were quite successful in their jobs and in life were suddenly being diagnosed with "Adult ADHD" and put on medication.

Nobody can medicate you without your approval. My primary care physician is a source of medical information and reference. He is not there as jury and judge. I make all the decisions. People allow themselves to be medicated. Sadness is not a mental condition. Inattention is not a medical condition. It is a feature not a bug.

 

[DJTorrente]

Nobody can medicate you without your approval. My primary care physician is a source of medical information and reference. He is not there as jury and judge. I make all the decisions. People allow themselves to be medicated. Sadness is not a mental condition. Inattention is not a medical condition. It is a feature not a bug.

Its easy to hand-waive away moral and constitutional due process protections when its someone else's freedoms at risk.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I did some searching before asking this but most posts on ADHD are about having ADHD and getting cleared by medical, but I'm wondering if anyone knows why the FAA seems to have had such a historically strong disdain for ADHD? The new process for clearing people who have had an ADHD diagnosis in the past is helpful to some, yes, but realistically in what scenario is a stable, medicated person with ADHD at a massive disadvantage than a non-medicated person? If a person is able to maintain a decent career and function, why would the FAA want them to get off meds, get a COGSCREEN, and never get back on meds? Seems A) backwards and B) way more likely to result in some adverse situation with the person off meds.

Realistically the only situation that comes to mind is meds wearing off mid-flight and someone who got through training without meds is, of course, capable of flying while un-medicated however you'd expect that anyone flying VFR will probably not have to worry about medication wearing off, and anyone IFR will probably have gone through situations where their medication wore off and they were able to handle it. Alternatively here what is stopping someone from taking more medication if the medication is wearing off? After a 16 hour leg I'd probably prefer the sleep deprived person on stimulants to a sleep deprived guy and a pot of coffee.

Per NCBI the military also seems to agree with the sentiment with ~60% of pilots considering their use beneficial or essential to operations

The use of amphetamines in U.S. Air Force tactical operations during Desert Shield and Storm​

"Of pilots who were surveyed, 65% used amphetamines during the deployment to the SWA AOR and/or during Operation Desert Storm. Pilots who used amphetamines in air operations described it as "occasional." The most frequent indications for amphetamine use were "aircrew fatigue" and "mission type." Of pilots who used amphetamines, 58-61% considered their use beneficial or essential to operations. Dextroamphetamine (5 mg every 4 h) was used effectively and without major side effects in tactical flying operations. Amphetamine use enhanced cockpit performance and flight safety by reducing the effect of fatigue during critical stages of flight."

Per NCBI -

Dextroamphetamine use during B-2 combat missions​

Results: Pilots on shorter missions used dextroamphetamine for 97% and in-flight naps for 13% of sorties. Those on longer missions used dextroamphetamine on 58% and naps on 94% of sorties. Stimulant use was not affected by pilot age, bomber experience, or long-duration experience. The opportunity to obtain in-flight sleep was limited by certain mission profiles, which influenced the decision to use dextroamphetamine. Among pilots who used the medication, 97% noted a benefit. Side effects and failure to observe benefits were uncommon.

Last reference (not a study but an article summarizing a study)

Air Force scientists battle aviator fatigue​

Results: Scientists said that while the pilots were on the medication, their performance “significantly improved,” especially after 25 hours without sleep. The pilots also sustained brain activity at almost normal levels despite their sleeplessness.

Just to get ahead of the Tarnak incident the military switched from dextroamphetamine to Modanifil...ironically another anti-ADHD medication they laud the benefits of.

FAA and Air Force/Navy are both government departments. Air Force and Navy medical research states significant benefits to fighter pilots when using drugs designed to treat ADHD. FAA takes opposite stand and disqualifies anyone for stimulant usage (per substance dependence policy?) from any meaningful flying. Arguably a functioning, medicated person with ADHD is equivalently capable to a person without ADHD but comes with the added benefit of feeling less fatigue.

If the FAA took this stance on commercial pilots I'd be irked but could understand it but the fact that you can't get a PPL while being treated is getting to be a bit ridiculous.

So, with that, is there any reason why the FAA takes the stance that they do?

Sincerely,
A really irked ME with ADHD

The FAA seems to think that ADHD is one single condition. I had a guy work for me that had serious ADHD; you'd not want him flying a plane. I relieved him of duty. OTOH, there are mild cases, that are merely annoying to others.

 

[ThatWontFly]

The FAA seems to think that ADHD is one single condition. I had a guy work for me that had serious ADHD; you'd not want him flying a plane. I relieved him of duty. OTOH, there are mild cases, that are merely annoying to others.

Yeah, those are the types that tend to give the condition a bad rap... some of those mellow out as they get older. Lot of well medicated people you'd never know have it

That kind of reminded me Jimmy, the pilot who runs the youtube channel Jimmy's World - I have a sneaking suspicion that guy has a serious case of ADHD. Kind of funny, kind of annoying, and I'd doubt many here have a problem with him flying...ironically

 

[Dana]

The problem with psych meds is that the person feels fine on the meds so he doesn't think he needs them any more, so he stops taking them... and because he's off his meds he doesn't recognize that he's being irrational.

People who were prescribed ADHD meds during childhood and haven't used or needed them during their adult life, that's another matter entirely.

Re amphetamines in the military, I remember reading of bomber pilots using them to stay awake on long missions... they stayed awake, but still managed to crash on landing due to fatigue even though they were wide awake.

 

[Morgan3820]

Its easy to hand-waive away moral and constitutional due process protections when its someone else's freedoms at risk.

I looked at my comment and then I looked at your comment and then I reread them about three times and I still have no idea what you’re talking about. I was trying to encourage people to take ownership of their own healthcare and not automatically accept labels from the white coated people. I don’t see where I’m trying to impinge on anybody’s freedoms in my comment. Explain it to me.

 

[Princesspilot206]

I wouldn't view it as the "FAA's" beef, but "Innocent bystanders that could be harmed due to your ADHD driven mistakes...beef."

 

[Velocity173]

As a .mil aircrew guy who was pushed both uppers and downers during OEF and OIF, don’t take too much stock in that DoD study other than it was justification done after the fact.

I guarantee that study only captured only a very limited time frame. Basically the first couple weeks of the invasion. Just like OIF / OEF, early on guys probably needed “go pills” because of the optempo. The other 99 % of the duration, SOP fighter management prevented crew fatigue. In 1,100 combat hours, I exceeded my allowed daily flight hours (8 hrs) only once and I may have had a half a dozen duty day (14 hrs) extensions. Long term use of drugs just wasn’t necessary for the most part.

 

[ThatWontFly]

The problem with psych meds is that the person feels fine on the meds so he doesn't think he needs them any more, so he stops taking them... and because he's off his meds he doesn't recognize that he's being irrational.

This sounds like the plot line to A Beautiful Mind, and it's a bit of a stretch to say that it applies to everyone, especially those who believe they are more focused and better organized while doing mundane or tedious tasks that might otherwise be difficult

People who were prescribed ADHD meds during childhood and haven't used or needed them during their adult life, that's another matter entirely.

Need is a pretty difficult to quantify. I know people who had ADHD and graduated top 3% of their high school class...then got on medication at the beginning of their college career, graduated with a PhD in mech eng., work for the department of defense, and are still taking medication. Should their demonstrated history of success be enough to say they are responsible enough to fly while medicated?

Re amphetamines in the military, I remember reading of bomber pilots using them to stay awake on long missions... they stayed awake, but still managed to crash on landing due to fatigue even though they were wide awake.

This is new to me, I'd only heard about the success stories with it. At a certain point there could be some adverse effects but the same can be said of being tired/fatigued/sleepless in general

 

[TCABM]

I guarantee that study only captured only a very limited time frame. Basically the first couple weeks of the invasion. Just like OIF / OEF, early on guys probably needed “go pills” because of the optempo. The other 99 % of the duration, SOP fighter management prevented crew fatigue. In 1,100 combat hours, I exceeded my allowed daily flight hours (8 hrs) only once and I may have had a half a dozen duty day (14 hrs) extensions. Long term use of drugs just wasn’t necessary for the most part.

Yeah, I was in OEF in early 2002. We were flying scheduled 14.0s with a blanket waiver to 16.0 every third day. 400 in 90 was waived to 440. It took about 2 1/2 months to hit that mark and we got sidelined for several weeks until our look back was healthy enough to get back on the schedule. A few months later, two more crews were authorized per rotation because what we were doing was unsustainable.

 

[DJTorrente]

I looked at my comment and then I looked at your comment and then I reread them about three times and I still have no idea what you’re talking about. I was trying to encourage people to take ownership of their own healthcare and not automatically accept labels from the white coated people. I don’t see where I’m trying to impinge on anybody’s freedoms in my comment. Explain it to me.

Pilot goes to a licensed medical professional seeking treatment of an ailment. Dr. prescribes a perfectly reasonable course of action; which pilot follows. Pilot next receives certified letter from FAA instructing him to surrender his certificates. Why? His pharma prescription is indicated for (i.e., used to treat) a disqualifying condition that he may or may not even suffer from.

Can the pilot simply stop taking the pharmaceutical and retain his flight privileges? No.
Can the pilot prove that they DON'T suffer from the condition, or that it is appropriately managed? Not cheaply, nor in any straightforward manner. And they are grounded unless and until they do.
Can the pilot read the rules that they are expected to know intimately every time they go to the doctor? No.

Now, I am all for personal responsibility. But this is Catch 22 stuff here.

If any of what the FAA puts pilots through were applied to automobile drivers, there would be a revolt. Of course, there are 200,000,000 licensed drivers in the country, and less than 500,000 pilots out of 330,000,000 people. Smaller, "insular minorities" (as the Supreme Court once put it) are far easier to abuse.

One reason I believe that it's so common to hear "On the main, pilots are REALLY passionate about flying," is because any normal person would say "F*** This S***" and go buy a boat or a motorcycle.

 

[Tools]

The faa is risk adverse, not held to any logical standards, and suffers no consequence for violating ANY rights or ANY wrongdoing.

So why wouldn’t they just say no to something they don’t understand?

The old keeping the public safe is malarkey. In the case of drunk pilots, it’s NEVER caused an incident in part 121 (the reason HIMS exists). So where is the risk or problem?

The faa is for sale. But they’re EXPENSIVE.

In my opinion….

 

[ThatWontFly]

The faa is risk adverse, not held to any logical standards, and suffers no consequence for violating ANY rights or ANY wrongdoing.

So why wouldn’t they just say no to something they don’t understand?

The old keeping the public safe is malarkey. In the case of drunk pilots, it’s NEVER caused an incident in part 121 (the reason HIMS exists). So where is the risk or problem?

The faa is for sale. But they’re EXPENSIVE.

In my opinion….

Well said

Maybe medical portion was designed by scientologists. That problem is disqualifying but another few thousand bumps gets you to a different person who can clear that...

 

[Daleandee]

Nobody can medicate you without your approval. My primary care physician is a source of medical information and reference. He is not there as jury and judge. I make all the decisions.

I'm quite pleased that my Doc isn't pill pusher, he'd rather find a lifestyle change that fixes the problem ...

 

[Pinecone]

Nobody can medicate you without your approval. My primary care physician is a source of medical information and reference. He is not there as jury and judge. I make all the decisions. People allow themselves to be medicated. Sadness is not a mental condition. Inattention is not a medical condition. It is a feature not a bug.

BUT, many people do not understand the long-term ramifications of being medicated.

Not health wise, but life wise. Such as a child being diagnosed as ADHD and medicated, then 20 years later finding out they are screwed in a flying career.

And WTF?! with a TEACHER diagnosing ADHD??? And what mental health degree and certification do they have?????

 

[Lindberg]

The new process for clearing people who have had an ADHD diagnosis in the past is helpful to some, yes, but realistically in what scenario is a stable, medicated person with ADHD at a massive disadvantage than a non-medicated person? If a person is able to maintain a decent career and function, why would the FAA want them to get off meds, get a COGSCREEN, and never get back on meds? Seems A) backwards and B) way more likely to result in some adverse situation with the person off meds.

You need meds to properly function. What happens when you stop taking them?

 

[ThatWontFly]

You need meds to properly function. What happens when you stop taking them?

This is definitely an argument for it, but as silly as it sounds I wasn't thinking that was much of a possibility. If your medication worked well for you, why would you stop taking it? There's the obvious situation where you're out of the country for a week and you fly out 2 days before you can refill and no one wants their FO bouncing around the cockpit...my frustration is that while that's a good argument to be made for CPL's, why extend that to PPL?

 

[jbarrass]

The FAA doesn't accept any type of spectrum If you are ever in your life with it you are grounded. You can test with their captive psychiatrist against their home-brew baseline and if you are in the bottom 15% you have it and can't fly and if you are it above it you don't have it, get the SI, and you are good to go. Somehow this makes sense to them.

Of course there is much pill pushing to folks that don't need it and that's not good, but the kids are really the victim here and the FAAs position is abusive towards these kids.

But there is another scenario that is very common. That is a person that has a desire for more focus seeks out a treatment to make them "better" Not cured, but better. The C student wants to be an A student for example: Someone who tests at the 25% level (no ADD per the FAA and good to go) can seek a treatment that brings them to 75% (not OK with the FAA). Many legitime doctors would support this position. I don't see how the 75% pilot is substantially more of a risk to the non-participating public then the 25% pilot. Wouldn't it make sense to let the 16% pilot get treatment and get to say, 50+%. The "forgot your meds" argument it trite. It just puts the pilot back to the FAA's "good" position.

They used to (I think) have a successful life test. If you stop the meds, graduate HS, College, med school whatever. Get a job a life, make bank enough to support this game. Certainly I'd fly with you.

 

[Daleandee]

If your medication worked well for you, why would you stop taking it?

From limited experience with some family members & friends the concern appears to me to be that when they feel fine they believe they no longer need the medication & quit taking it. They are unaware that their behavior has changed and their mental capacity for decision making is deteriorated ...

 

[Lindberg]

If your medication worked well for you, why would you stop taking it?

That's an extremely rational question that you expect people whose brains don't work that way to ask.

 

[MIFlyer]

From limited experience with some family members & friends the concern appears to me to be that when they feel fine they believe they no longer need the medication & quit taking it. They are unaware that their behavior has changed and their mental capacity for decision making is deteriorated ...

Truly curious. YOu've seen this with ADHD people??? I've heard of this with more severe mental disorders, but not one (and I know a lot) of ADHD sufferers that I know would think that. They may go off medication at times, but they KNOW they feel and focus differently.

 

[tspear]

From limited experience with some family members & friends the concern appears to me to be that when they feel fine they believe they no longer need the medication & quit taking it. They are unaware that their behavior has changed and their mental capacity for decision making is deteriorated ...

I have never heard this applied to ADHD or ADD. And I know a lot of people with both conditions.

The FAA seems to not believe in any spectrums. They attempt to make everything a simple yes/no; often it seems like coming down on the no side by preference.
One government staffer I worked with (DoD, not FAA) observed the following. As a general rule, government employees cannot get trouble for saying no, but they can get in trouble for saying yes. This makes the culture super risk adverse.

Tim

 

[ThatWontFly]

I have never heard this applied to ADHD or ADD. And I know a lot of people with both conditions.

The FAA seems to not believe in any spectrums. They attempt to make everything a simple yes/no; often it seems like coming down on the no side by preference.
One government staffer I worked with (DoD, not FAA) observed the following. As a general rule, government employees cannot get trouble for saying no, but they can get in trouble for saying yes. This makes the culture super risk adverse.

Tim

I've seen it, I've seen ADD people struggle through their day and blame it on forgetting their meds - they take it the next day and they're relieved. Most people with anything more than a mild case of ADHD they can tell when they forgot their meds. Can't say that all kids are the opposite and that they prefer to stay off medication but definitely some are...I was, I seriously disliked the meds until about high school and some others seemed to echo the same thing prefer to be off medication for ADHD but as they get older their attitude towards it seemed to switch.

Here's a good example - my dad graduated with an ME degree from Georgia Tech and ran 3 companies at the same time and worked 80~90 hour weeks from mid 30's until his mid 50's. Some time around his late 50's a psychiatrist friend of his suggested he may have ADD, got him on Vyvanse and ever since my dad says he prefers to be medicated because it helps keep him things straight, and he's still taking it now into his late 60's. People don't develop ADD as they get older but rather the opposite - people tend to calm down and improve coping skills, but another example of where medication has improved someone's life. Personnally I feel the same way - I can function without it, I HAVE functioned without it, but I know I feel and focus differently. Just annoying that there is no process for reconstitution once/if you prove to the FAA you don't need medication to meet the standard

The risk aversion was something I thought of too but nearly every facet of government is allowed some discretion over when they say yes or waive that condition - except the FAA doesn't have anything except a brief note in their approved medication document saying that under rare circumstances ritalin could be approved but it's not the case anymore. If there's a story behind this I'm interested

 

[Daleandee]

Truly curious. YOu've seen this with ADHD people??? I've heard of this with more severe mental disorders, but not one (and I know a lot) of ADHD sufferers that I know would think that. They may go off medication at times, but they KNOW they feel and focus differently.

I have never heard this applied to ADHD or ADD. And I know a lot of people with both conditions.

The FAA seems to not believe in any spectrums. They attempt to make everything a simple yes/no; often it seems like coming down on the no side by preference.
One government staffer I worked with (DoD, not FAA) observed the following. As a general rule, government employees cannot get trouble for saying no, but they can get in trouble for saying yes. This makes the culture super risk adverse.

A particular family member has this concern but I'm not certain of their diagnosis. Seems it was Bipolar with Schizophrenia but there appears to be disagreement about whether this is possible and even more about the overlap (if there is one) with ADHD & Bipolar. Perhaps I'm naming an incorrect illness here but I do know that there are times when this person doesn't take the meds, thinks they are OK, and it's very evident to anyone else around that they are not ...

 

[hindsight2020]

Smaller, "insular minorities" (as the Supreme Court once put it) are far easier to abuse.

Indeed. More than very painfully familiar with the cases you refer to, as they dealt with my kin, great grandparents and grandparents specifically. One of many black marks in the history of this imperfect, at time fumbling, Empire of ours.

My grandfather went on to serve 20 years in the US Army; my father was medically disqualified during the Vietnam draft; yours truly is enroute to add another 20er in the family tree (and the only commissioned officer, was just informed I made the LTC list.. my immediate ancestors never made it past NCO on account of English illiteracy). So yeah, it sucked having to constantly "qualify" one's legitimacy to be here, lord knows me and mine have earned our citizenship. An effort that certainly has gone far beyond a "mainlander's" mother popping a squat in the right zip code by jus-solis-proxy. Don't ask me how I really feel....

One reason I believe that it's so common to hear "On the main, pilots are REALLY passionate about flying," is because any normal person would say "F*** This S***" and go buy a boat or a motorcycle.

I think we're more "normal" than portrayed. To wit, most pro pilots are in fact not owners, and would be found to more commonly utter the latter remark you highlight, than the former. I took my ball home recently, and haven't really got back in the market, most because of the economy, but also because of that frustration with the status quo. In fairness I do hold out a lukewarm hope to re-enter, but it's going to be in more amenable terms to me, otherwise I'm taking up video games, more gym time, go-karting or some random simple motorized affair, and eff this noise. Frankly I'm surprised they haven't clamped down on experimental already....

 

[ThatWontFly]

Ahh, it's really common for ADHD to also go along with other conditions - bipolar being one of them - and it isn't uncommon for those diagnosed with bipolar to stop taking their bipolar medication because they think they're better...after all only sadness is a problem, right? That's pretty much all I know about bipolar disorder though and what I've heard/read is pretty limited

 

[ThatWontFly]

Indeed. More than very painfully familiar with the cases you refer to, as they dealt with my kin, great grandparents and grandparents specifically. One of many black marks in the history of this imperfect, at time fumbling, Empire of ours.

My grandfather went on to serve 20 years in the US Army; my father was medically disqualified during the Vietnam draft; yours truly is enroute to add another 20er in the family tree (and the only commissioned officer, was just informed I made the LTC list.. my immediate ancestors never made it past NCO on account of English illiteracy). So yeah, it sucked having to constantly "qualify" one's legitimacy to be here, lord knows me and mine have earned our citizenship. An effort that certainly has gone far beyond a "mainlander's" mother popping a squat in the right zip code by jus-solis-proxy. Don't ask me how I really feel....

I think we're more "normal" than portrayed. To wit, most pro pilots are in fact not owners, and would be found to more commonly utter the latter remark you highlight, than the former. I took my ball home recently, and haven't really got back in the market, most because of the economy, but also because of that frustration with the status quo. In fairness I do hold out a lukewarm hope to re-enter, but it's going to be in more amenable terms to me, otherwise I'm taking up video games, more gym time, go-karting or some random simple motorized affair, and eff this noise. Frankly I'm surprised they haven't clamped down on experimental already....

I like your cats hair do

 

[hindsight2020]

I like your cats hair do

My apologies, I didn't mean to derail your thread.

To bring it back on topic, former bomber pilot here. Was issued go -pills, chose to forego them in long range operation. Wicked euphoria at the end of a 17 hour sortie (well in excess of 24 hour awake when accounting for the entire duty period plus time getting to the squadron). Shooting that ILS back at Barksdale at 3am was interesting. I couldn't stop joking/laughing during debrief (apparently that's my individual physiological response to sleep depravation, or lethal-proximate stress respectively). Driving home that morning was probably the stupiddest ish I've ever done in hindsight (username checks!).

At any rate, many more stories I could tell you about my peers and their actual eventual use of the issued drugs. I won't go into it on here. BL, from where I sit, the discussion on .mil issuance on uppers and downers as supportive of general aviation ADHD medication is just a non-sequitur. Not trying to be elitist, just a completely different use-case and demographic, to say nothing of DOD taking operational ownership of us subjects' behavior in question, and the degree of medical coercion we are bounded by under UCMJ penalty, compared to recreational civilian participants good bad or indifferent. We also crash an #ss ton of airplanes compared to professional civilians. @TCABM comment's pretty much "covered the fly bys" on this topic already, and I second his commentary.

 

[TCABM]

…just informed I made the LTC list...

Congratulations. May your line number be in the first month. Or do you part-timers do it differently?

 

[Tools]

was just informed I made the LTC list..

Where’s the wetting down?!!!!

GREEN LIGHT

 

[hindsight2020]

Congratulations. May your line number be in the first month. Or do you part-timers do it differently?

Where’s the wetting down?!!!!

GREEN LIGHT

PM sent.
ETA: @TCABM it did not allow me to pm ya.

 

[douglas393]

Like many diagnosis in medicine ADHD can be very subjective. I grew up in the 60s and 70s and knew many people who grew up with me who would have been diagnosed with a autistic spectrum diagnosis if they grew up later. There was not a recognition of this back then and so nothing was done unless they were disruptive or failing. Many grew up to be quite successful in their chosen careers. Unfortunately this diagnosis is very much overused and this is one of the consequences. The FAA is in a difficult position. If someone with the diagnosis does something that brings the public's attention to flying in a less than positive light, the diagnosis becomes a focal point to eviscerate the FAA and the flying community whether it is the culprit or not, especially in the social media age. So best to cast a wide net and prevent anyone who may bring a bad outcome from joining the club to avoid the possibility.