FAA shutdown may last through August

If they are underutilized, one could inquire if there is a need for that particular airfield.
That is true, but people seem to get all riled up when there is talk of closing an airport, any airport. Pilots don't want to pay user fees, landing fees, etc. But somebody needs to be paying. The question is who?
 
That is true, but people seem to get all riled up when there is talk of closing an airport, any airport. Pilots don't want to pay user fees, landing fees, etc. But somebody needs to be paying. The question is who?
Completely agree. I may be one of those odd ball pilots but if an airfield isn't being utilized, or is significantly under untilized, I'm all in favor of reallocating the property. That may result in me having to drive an extra 30 minutes to the next airport but overall that is a minor inconvenience.
 
I doubt that very many small airports can do that unless they have supporters with deep pockets or there isn't much to maintain on the airport.

I have spent the day sitting at many small airports and I have often wondered how they stay around based on the lack of traffic. This isn't a new phenomenon either. I have been noticing it for quite a few years.
If there is a need, it will be built. You should see how many big ranches here in Texas have their own 5000' runway. If the infrastructure was needed, it would be built by those that have the need.

Ryan
 
If there is a need, it will be built. You should see how many big ranches here in Texas have their own 5000' runway. If the infrastructure was needed, it would be built by those that have the need.
I've been to at least one of those private ranch airports in Texas, built by people with very deep pockets. I fact I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people had more money than the entire population of some small towns. Not that that is bad, but I think the country needs some airport infrastructure, especially in areas where distances are large. Ranch airports aren't really the answer. For one thing, they are private and can limit access to ranch business only.
 
That is true, but people seem to get all riled up when there is talk of closing an airport, any airport. Pilots don't want to pay user fees, landing fees, etc. But somebody needs to be paying. The question is who?

The same people that pay for all those millions of miles of rural road maintenance, roads that see a car once every three days.

We ALL pay for transportation infrastructure through taxes. Whether we pay on a local, or a federal level, we pay taxes for transportation infrastructure that might be minimally used.

We are talking a mile of runway here and there. I'm one of those who get riled up when there is talk of closing an airport. You don't want to pay for an airport in Roseau, MN because you don't use it and others use it infrequently? Fine - I don't want to pay for the millions of miles of roadway that are maintained for a few rural residents then.

In truth, I think it is important to maintain BOTH pieces of infrastructure.

Tim
 
In truth, I think it is important to maintain BOTH pieces of infrastructure.
I agree with you but I was playing the Devil's Advocate. The fact is that someone needs to pay for these things. Probably the "fairest" situation would be for the feds, the state and local agencies and the users to all chip in. However, there will always be controversy about the proportions.
 
I just read five minutes ago that it fell apart too. Sigh. "Leadership" agreed but votes were lost to those areas where funding for specific airports would be cut. We'll see. :(
 
I believe in user pays, you will in one way or the other anyway. The interstate highways are paid for by every one who buys gas, that should be changed drop the fed gas tax, and place toll booths on every inch of federally paid for road. set up a bar code on the vehicle, drive by a camera you get a bill.

ATC should be paid for by the users, If you want to play you pay.

I like the option of choice to elect what taxes to pay,

I see no reason for granny to pay for the interstate highway system that she may never use, or a piper J3 flyer to pay for a ATC they never use.
Just like aviation user fees, the problem is the cost to collect them. It costs practically nothing to collect fuel taxes, but look at the problems the State of Washington has had with bridge tolling.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/07/19/1750683/new-toll-glitch-affects-1100-tacoma.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015603405_520tolls14m.html

It's not just the government's administrative costs. Users have to audit their bills for all to common erroneous charges.
 
I agree that fuel taxes for cars and airplanes are easier to collect but are also harder to distribute "fairly". Taxes are also harder to raise, when the need arises, than fees.
 
I agree that fuel taxes for cars and airplanes are easier to collect but are also harder to distribute "fairly". Taxes are also harder to raise, when the need arises, than fees.
I disagree. The fuel taxes on aviation fuel are supposed to go to a trust fund, and from there they get distributed "fairly".

Now, when you have these taxes going into the general fund, then you are no longer even trying to claim that you're paying for a service. You're paying, and you're receiving a service, but there's no direct correlation between the two.

"Fair" is a meaningless concept in accounting and taxation anyway. Let's just stick to aviation to stay out of SZ. Let's pretend that the FAA provides all aviation services we get from the gov't.

How much benefit from the aviation system do people who NEVER get on an airplane see, and what should be their contribution to the FAA costs? I think the number is more than zero.

Now let's pay for everything else via fuel tax. You buy aviation fuel (and no you can't buy car gas for your airplane anymore unless you buy it from a supplier who charges the appropriate tax and pays it in). All gov't flyers pay the tax too (so their contribution comes from their budget, not the "general" fund). Everyone pays the same tax per gallon.

This seems "fair" to me. If you fly airplanes, the more fuel you burn, the more money the aviation system gets. The tax rate may need to be adjusted, and the trust fund is NOT "zero budgeted" so that money can be banked over time to pay for system upgrades and such.

That's what I'd try if I were King, anyway.
 
I disagree. The fuel taxes on aviation fuel are supposed to go to a trust fund, and from there they get distributed "fairly".
I can agree with that, however, Kent was using the example of a toll bridge. Should all drivers in Washington be paying for that bridge, just the ones who use it, or a combination of both?

You can say that aviation benefits everyone but it benefits some people more than others. I'm not arguing to have user fees or not. I'm just making a statement that I can see both sides.
 
All the GA airports in this country in total, cost the government only a tiny, tiny, tiny, fraction of 1% of the budget to maintain...
The big, big cost for the FAA is the structure to move the airliners around... The entire system is built for them, not for 4 seat bug smashers...

If the FAA were to shut down suddenly I would not even notice... I can still communicate on Unicom and CTAF... I can navigate by VFR and by GPS... NDB/VOR/ILS is becoming an endangered species and will drift away no matter what the FAA budget is, or is not... GPS approaches for IMC will be the standard and the only means for GA 20 years from now - except for the CAT3 airliners doing zero-zero approaches at the big fields - ORD, etc...

You have to keep in focus that this current interruption in the FAA budget was over a few Senators protecting obscene federal subsidies at a few airports in their districts - up to $3800 a seat for every flight, though many were less $$ than that; and over their attempt to ram the union down the throat of one company... These Senators were willing the crush airport system for the entire country over those two issues...

denny-o
 
I disagree. The fuel taxes on aviation fuel are supposed to go to a trust fund, and from there they get distributed "fairly".

Now, when you have these taxes going into the general fund, then you are no longer even trying to claim that you're paying for a service. You're paying, and you're receiving a service, but there's no direct correlation between the two.

"Fair" is a meaningless concept in accounting and taxation anyway. Let's just stick to aviation to stay out of SZ. Let's pretend that the FAA provides all aviation services we get from the gov't.

How much benefit from the aviation system do people who NEVER get on an airplane see, and what should be their contribution to the FAA costs? I think the number is more than zero.

Now let's pay for everything else via fuel tax. You buy aviation fuel (and no you can't buy car gas for your airplane anymore unless you buy it from a supplier who charges the appropriate tax and pays it in). All gov't flyers pay the tax too (so their contribution comes from their budget, not the "general" fund). Everyone pays the same tax per gallon.

This seems "fair" to me. If you fly airplanes, the more fuel you burn, the more money the aviation system gets. The tax rate may need to be adjusted, and the trust fund is NOT "zero budgeted" so that money can be banked over time to pay for system upgrades and such.

That's what I'd try if I were King, anyway.

Even though I fully support the idea of using only a fuel tax, it's going to have a flaw in a decade or two. ELECTRIC AIRPLANES. Not insurmountable, but definitely a complication.
 
For electric airplanes, or for them to figure out how to equitably tax them (or both)?

Electric airplanes. A self launch glider perhaps, but we are a long way away from making a 172 equivalent that will run on batteries.

Coming up with a way to tax them if they were to ever become practical should not be a problem for your average politition...
 
Electric airplanes. A self launch glider perhaps, but we are a long way away from making a 172 equivalent that will run on batteries.

Coming up with a way to tax them if they were to ever become practical should not be a problem for your average politition...
I think Grant makes a valid point, but it's true that electric airplanes are 50+ years off. Maybe small airplanes like 172s could be electric in a few decades, but we have absolutely no idea how to make an electric 747. And even for the 172....I doubt it would make for a viable airplane. Electric cars are still in their early infancy. They are still a lot more expensive, worse for the environment, and aren't close to the capability of regular cars. I'm sure this will improve in the next decade, but cars are a trivial problem compared to airplanes.
 
Even though I fully support the idea of using only a fuel tax, it's going to have a flaw in a decade or two. ELECTRIC AIRPLANES. Not insurmountable, but definitely a complication.

People are already complaining that owners of electric cars and hybrids aren't paying their fair share of the fuel tax.
 
People are already complaining that owners of electric cars and hybrids aren't paying their fair share of the fuel tax.
They are also not paying their fare share of pollution tax (if there were such a thing). The environmental footprint of those cars is enormous.
 
I'll join in on the "Who should pay" discussion. My take is "Every one who benefits from the airport being there". We have people who don't even know that we have an airport who wouldn't have the job they have if we didn't have an airport. An executive who built a local clothing store chain distribution center stated that they didn't choose this location because of the airport but, without the airport, they would not have. Their payroll is over $2.5 million and their property tax is over $100K. They are a typical example.

The benefit of the airport to the economic well being of the area is not quantifiable but it is very significant.

Local taxpayers bear the shortfall of our operating expenses. It amounts to less than 1/3 of the cost of the local animal shelter and also much less than the cost of street lights.

State grants are funded by the state sales tax on aviation fuels and the sale of aircraft. The local taxpayer (City) provides the matching funds.

We strive to be as cost effective, who are benefiting from our existence, pick up some of the airport costs
 
They are also not paying their fare share of pollution tax (if there were such a thing). The environmental footprint of those cars is enormous.

What is the environmental footprint that the owners of the cars aren't paying their fair share for?
 
What is the environmental footprint that the owners of the cars aren't paying their fair share for?
Nickel mining (extremely high impact on the environment), electricity generation, car construction cost (very high impact as there's lots of shipping involved) - just to name a few.

Same with electric airplanes using current technology. My point is that fuel taxes won't be a good long-term funding source; personally, I would shift from fuel taxes to environmental impact. It's also a model that scales fairly well to larger airplanes.
 
Nickel mining (extremely high impact on the environment), electricity generation, car construction cost (very high impact as there's lots of shipping involved) - just to name a few.

Electricity generation costs/impacts would be the same whatever the end use of the electricity, no?

Car construction cost/impact is significantly different for a electric/hybrid than for a vehicle powered by a gas engine?

Doesn't oil drilling have its own impact?

I'm curious about actual differentiators.
 
Electricity generation costs/impacts would be the same whatever the end use of the electricity, no?
Well, no. There's significant differences in how power is generated. One isn't necessarily better than the other. Coal plants are quite bad for the environment, and oil drilling can obviously also be very bad.

Car construction cost/impact is significantly different for a electric/hybrid than for a vehicle powered by a gas engine?
Not necessarily. But it is different right now, mostly because of the battery technology we use. Making the battery in most electric cars right now, for example, has a huge environmental impact due to toxicity of the components used as well as shipping/manufacturing.

Doesn't oil drilling have its own impact?
No doubt...

I'm curious about actual differentiators.
I've listed some. As always, this isn't a simple topic. Just like how adding ethanol to the fuel used doesn't actually do what people think of first.
 
It's funny how no one has commented on the fact that the FAA has been re-funded, and all those wonderful bureaucrats are headed back to work tomorrow...

I don't know how we got by without 'em.
 
It's funny how no one has commented on the fact that the FAA has been re-funded, and all those wonderful bureaucrats are headed back to work tomorrow..
I don't know how we got by without 'em.

Funny, I flew from NorCal to Osh and on to Austin then home and DIDN'T MISS THEM A DAMN BIT!!!!!!!!! Wonder how many we could do without?

Anyone remember we are living on BORROWED MONEY that EQUALS our GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT? I.E. our borrowed total EQUALS our (taxation) income now that they made their DEAL ...... Can you even imagine what that interest payment is? Can you imagine what that could buy for things we really need to do???????
Does anyone really want to put their head in the sand....?

Can any of you do that without your wife leaving you for someone with a hell of a lot more sense?
 
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Good.

My airport in Iowa received those bogus FAA funds (we called them "ObamaBux") to re-do the runways, and the waste was sinful. The job should have been paid for locally, for half the cost.

Or, more likely, not paid for at all, and sold off to a developer.

We have the airports we have because of the 90% federal match, and having these airports is good for the country.

Now, I'm in favor of balancing the budget too, but "shut everything down" is not the way to go about that.
 
It would be just like driving (flying is just like driving anyway). It would just mean you have to learn the laws where you are travelling to, no different than driving there.

WAY different. When you drive into another state, they generally have a series of signs up at the border: "Speed Limit 65." "No Handheld Cell Phone Use." Or in the case of the educationally challenged states like Texas, "Obey Traffic Signs." :frown2: Kinda hard to put up a sign at the state line at 8,000 feet that says "Speed limit 230 KIAS below this sign."

Also, we do have a federal DOT. While traffic laws do vary from state to state, all of our signs are similar, the rules are similar, and things are quite heavily regulated at the federal level as well as state.

Airplanes can traverse many states in a day. Making people learn a new set of regs for every state they're going to fly in would completely kill aviation. You think your FAR/AIM is big now? It'd be 50 times as big if the states could all do their own thing, and learning to fly would become damn near impossible (something you think is already too hard).

The only place the feds need to be involed is a one line of federal law: Enroute airspace belongs to the departure airport. That way, you follow one set of laws until the wheels touch the ground.

Completely unworkable. Say Wisconsin sets cruise altitudes to be at odd thousands for all IFR and even thousands for all VFR. Minnesota sets theirs to be odd thousands for all westbounds and even thousands for all eastbounds. Now, you have airplanes that took off in two different states obeying two completely separate and conflicting sets of rules in the same airspace.

Sometimes, federal regulation is much better than leaving it up to the states.
 
Can any of you do that without your wife leaving you for someone with a hell of a lot more sense?

Plenty do...heard of consumer debt?

Not that I am intimating that government finances are or should be comparable to personal finances.

What is your debt to income ratio?
 
You have to keep in focus that this current interruption in the FAA budget was over a few Senators protecting obscene federal subsidies at a few airports in their districts - up to $3800 a seat for every flight, though many were less $$ than that; and over their attempt to ram the union down the throat of one company... These Senators were willing the crush airport system for the entire country over those two issues...

denny-o

LOL. That's one version. Or it could have been over certain Members of Congress trying to inappropriately castrate unions by making an end run around due process, and trying to do away with the last vestiges of an airline system that actually serves the public instead of themselves.
 
Funny, I flew from NorCal to Osh and on to Austin then home and DIDN'T MISS THEM A DAMN BIT!!!!!!!!! Wonder how many we could do without?


I'd bet you'd miss them if the controllers weren't there, or if the radar was out of service. What if the local airports had no one to check up on them........ how many runway lights do you think would still be working.

The last few weeks were like Mom and Dad going to the store when you were a kid and leaving you at home. When they leave, the house doesn't fall down, there's still food in the pantry, and you're content sitting in front of the TV.

But if they left for a week, now you're out of food. The kitchen faucet is dripping keeping you up at night, and you only have 1 pair of clean under ware left.

If they left for a couple months............
 
So the moral is...expenses are too high so cut anywhere but somewhere that may impact me. And we wonder what the problem is. :mad2:
 
Electric cars DO shift the carbon footprint from gas fired engines the electrical grid.

Even if it gets charged by a dirty coal plant instead of a hydroelectric source/wind farm, the large turbines in a steam generating turbine are much much more efficient than small motors.

So it's not a simple switch from one source of carbon to another, it's an overall increase in efficiency and a decrease in emissions.
 
Even if it gets charged by a dirty coal plant instead of a hydroelectric source/wind farm, the large turbines in a steam generating turbine are much much more efficient than small motors.

So it's not a simple switch from one source of carbon to another, it's an overall increase in efficiency and a decrease in emissions.

Really? So the generation --> transmission --> storage process doesn't impose loss?

:confused:
 
Plenty do...heard of consumer debt?

Not that I am intimating that government finances are or should be comparable to personal finances.

What is your debt to income ratio?

0:1 I don't spend what I don't have.
 
Electric cars DO shift the carbon footprint from gas fired engines the electrical grid.

Even if it gets charged by a dirty coal plant instead of a hydroelectric source/wind farm, the large turbines in a steam generating turbine are much much more efficient than small motors.

So it's not a simple switch from one source of carbon to another, it's an overall increase in efficiency and a decrease in emissions.

No it's not. Transmission loss is enormous. Something like 75%
 
No it's not. Transmission loss is enormous. Something like 75%

Don't forget the cost of getting fuel to the gas motor. I would be surprised if the efficiency of distributing gas to every individual car was more efficient than getting fuel to the electric power plants.
 
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