F35 approach

DaleB said:
I'll cut them a break on the silhouettes. They look pretty close to F-16s to me, though I guess I can see where they do have "a certain Sukhoi something" about the wing profile. And yeah, small size, 2D, yadda yadda.
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Yeh I mean they at least knew there should be airplanes on there and not a boat.
 
It was just a benign example, there are worse ones. Reddit has most of the cataloguing. It was just an attempt to make our esteemed colleague feel at ease about not knowing an F-18 from an F16 as someone who isn't required to, when even those in the DOD whose job is to run our propaganda machine can't pick the good guys from the bad guys on a strafing line if their life depended on it. Some don't even know there are flightlines in the installation they cubicle in day in and day out. Not hyperbole either.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It was just a benign example, there are worse ones. Reddit has most of the cataloguing. It was just an attempt to make our esteemed colleague feel at ease about not knowing an F-18 from an F16 as someone who isn't required to, when even those in the DOD whose job is to run our propaganda machine can't pick the good guys from the bad guys on a strafing line if their life depended on it. Some don't even know there are flightlines in the installation they cubicle in day in and day out. Not hyperbole either.
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I was actually surprised at how little my fellow Aviators knew about airplane recce other than what they got trained on. During a cruise we ended up getting fragged for an RAF tanker and it ended up being a Victor. As we picked it up visually he had no idea what it was. "that thing looks like it was designed by Jules Verne". I guess I assumed we all grew up as airplane nuts. Of course, he's a 2 star now and I've been retired since 07!
 
Back to the original question...

The Navy flies a continuous descending pattern starting abeam the numbers on downwind. We adjust the pattern for traffic on upwind.

We are configured for landing and “on speed” (15 units AOA, needle at 3 o’clock, indexer amber, L/D max) before we get there, and if possible 600’ AGL, 1 mile abeam.

We adjust the initial turn point to roll out wings level 35-45 seconds from touchdown, less if at the field. If you have more straight away than that, you are getting yelled at! LIG, long in the groove, will be in your debrief.

So, they were likely Navy or Marine jets. Another dead giveaway is no flare.

Tools
 
Tools said:
Back to the original question...

The Navy flies a continuous descending pattern starting abeam the numbers on downwind. We adjust the pattern for traffic on upwind.

We are configured for landing and “on speed” (15 units AOA, needle at 3 o’clock, indexer amber, L/D max) before we get there, and if possible 600’ AGL, 1 mile abeam.

We adjust the initial turn point to roll out wings level 35-45 seconds from touchdown, less if at the field. If you have more straight away than that, you are getting yelled at! LIG, long in the groove, will be in your debrief.

So, they were likely Navy or Marine jets. Another dead giveaway is no flare.

Tools
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All that sounds like what I observed, except the part about rolling out wings level on straight away. Seems like they did not do that until very short final, not more than 15 seconds prior to touchdown.

Looking at the map, could be they were adjusting their approach to avoid overflying civilian residential areas to the north of base. Red line represents my best guess at flight path. I was located at the star.

flight path.PNG
 
FYI those F-35s that have been hanging out at MacDill are USMC and not USAF which might explain the pattern uniqueness.

Incidentally my office is in the first large building with the red roof to the immediate left of the red star in Ed’s pic above.
 
tsts4 said:
FYI those F-35s that have been hanging out at MacDill are USMC and not USAF which might explain the pattern uniqueness.

Incidentally my office is in the first large building with the red roof to the immediate left of the red star in Ed’s pic above.
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Where do you fly out of?
 
Tools said:
We are configured for landing and “on speed” (15 units AOA, needle at 3 o’clock, indexer amber, L/D max) before we get there, and if possible 600’ AGL, 1 mile abeam.
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:eek: What did you fly? Haha

I know I know, units. Hornet/Rhino (and Growler) are 8.1, so that number is wild.

Also, I'm sure you will be happy to hear that we have started to go and change it. My last deployment before I got off active duty was all "extended landing pattern". Basically sets you up for a (short) day straight in every time. Descend to 450' aft of the ramp on downwind, extend to 1.5-2 miles (depending on interval's location), then level turn to line up around 1.5-2 miles behind mom. No more challenge to the SHB :( and no more of those pesky LIG comments :D It was kind of weird but we got used to it. I've heard that it hasn't exactly taken the fleet like wildfire yet though. We'll see if it was just another failed experiment at a decades old good idea fairy.
 
Hehe, the venerable S-3B Viking (whoop whoop) and TA-4Js as an instructor out of Meridian.

Got out in March of 99. Pugs and I know some of the same folks. It’s a small world!

Hmmm, don’t know what to think about changing the pattern, feel a little old fogey’ish just complaining about that’s not how we did it... but it didn’t seem like a bad way of doing things. If there’s a good reason, and it works so be it. If it’s just another bullet for some chuckle head’s FITREP, well... wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last!

Tools
 
Tools said:
Hehe, the venerable S-3B Viking (whoop whoop) and TA-4Js as an instructor out of Meridian.

Got out in March of 99. Pugs and I know some of the same folks. It’s a small world!

Hmmm, don’t know what to think about changing the pattern, feel a little old fogey’ish just complaining about that’s not how we did it... but it didn’t seem like a bad way of doing things. If there’s a good reason, and it works so be it. If it’s just another bullet for some chuckle head’s FITREP, well... wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last!

Tools
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The S-3 was / is one of my favs. Just a neat looking aircraft, versatile and of course a unique sound on final. Took this pic in 99 on the Stennis.
EBE91D6C-EC71-4DDD-9ED9-52C29854EA66.jpeg
 
35 AoA said:
I know I know, units. Hornet/Rhino (and Growler) are 8.1, so that number is wild.
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Yeah, but your units are degrees. :D Trying to explain 'units' to other engineers usually gets you a very confused look in return, but I wholeheartedly endorse the concept of not calibrating stuff just for the sake of calibrating.

Nauga,
and the stories he could tell about contractors and (bad) AOA cals.
 
BWAHAHAHA!!! Wow, don’t hear that often. Warms me heart. Usually hear, “uh, is that the jet from top gun?” Ya, no.... it’s... CLASSIFIED, ya, top secret. “Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to ask...”. But then I fess up. It’s a little like a moped, lots of fun but you don’t want your friends to see you driving it!

Really was a good honest bird around the boat. And truth be told on really dark nasty nights the convincing tones of your (scared ****less) COTAC “700, 700, you’re doing great, 700...” wasn’t horrible.

Great picture!

Tools
 
Tools said:
Hehe, the venerable S-3B Viking (whoop whoop) and TA-4Js as an instructor out of Meridian.

Got out in March of 99. Pugs and I know some of the same folks. It’s a small world!

Hmmm, don’t know what to think about changing the pattern, feel a little old fogey’ish just complaining about that’s not how we did it... but it didn’t seem like a bad way of doing things. If there’s a good reason, and it works so be it. If it’s just another bullet for some chuckle head’s FITREP, well... wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last!

Tools
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Hah that's right, I forgot that we chatted about this not too long ago. A few years too late, but I think I could have dug that bird. Heard so many stories about all the stuff you guys could haul out to a weekend ccx or Fallon.

Yeah, the ELP was kind of a weird solution looking for a problem. I will say that with PLM (aka "magic carpet"), it was intended to maximize the boarding rate potential. I'm not sure it really did that, but you definitely didn't have any WOPs or many technique wave offs. Biggest thing was getting way too many jets behind the boat between the 180 and groove and the pattern getting strung out to like 2-3 miles. Anyway, I guess it was something different to see, replacing something that, like you said, wasn't broken.
 
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nauga said:
Yeah, but your units are degrees. :D Trying to explain 'units' to other engineers usually gets you a very confused look in return, but I wholeheartedly endorse the concept of not calibrating stuff just for the sake of calibrating.

Nauga,
and the stories he could tell about contractors and (bad) AOA cals.
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haha don't worry, I don't think many pilots understood it either :)
 
35 AoA said:
Hah that's right, I forgot that we chatted about this not too long ago. A few years too late, but I think I could have dug that bird. Heard so many stories about all the stuff you guys could haul out to a weekend ccx or Fallon.

Yeah, the ELP was kind of a weird solution looking for a problem. I will say that with PLM (aka "magic carpet"), it was intended to maximize the boarding rate potential. I'm not sure it really did that, but you definitely didn't have any WOPs or many technique wave offs. Biggest thing was getting way too many jets behind the boat between the 180 and groove and the pattern getting strung out to like 2-3 miles. Anyway, I guess it was something different to see, replacing something that, like you said, wasn't broken.
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The ELP is stupid...probably thought up by someone who couldn’t master a good SHB, and decided to ruin everyone else’s fun!

But in truth, I never understood those who said “the approach turn is too challenging”. Especially with PLM.
 
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