Experience in DTW Class B?

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Ryan2

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Ryan2
Hi All -

Planning a flight from PA to Michigan. Most direct routing will take me right through DTW Class B airspace from SE to NW, about 8-10 mi W of DTW. Wanted to ask those with experience if they will allow that, if there is a "preferred" route, etc. I don't see any "VFR Flyways" through the B that I could take advantage of. I'm in a Saratoga, typically between 7-9k.

I have lots of experience flying southbound from PA and past CLT. My experience is that - almost every time - CLT will route me 30 mi east or west to keep me out of their Bravo. If DTW is going to do the same with me, I will plan my flight differently...

Thanks!
 
Don't really know. I don't generally even talk to DTW - I guess that makes me a bad person. My understanding is that sometimes they let you through, sometimes not.

This bit has been on the ONZ web page for years - dunno if there is any truth to it... I'll ask one of the instructors there and report back if I get an answer...

https://www.grosseileairport.com/html/pilot info/additional pages/fly in home.html
From the north or northwest the class B sits in your way. VFR clearance through the airspace is often rated with biblical miracles. But there is a way. The innovative controllers at Metro have an unofficial flyway known as ‘The Cage’. Plan to be over the Salem VOR at 3,500 and contact approach on 118.95 giving them your location, altitude, destination and request to fly ‘The Cage’. Sounding good on the radio will improve your chances for approval. When approved vectors and altitude changes will be given right to Grosse Ile. Be careful to not enter the class B without a clearance. This is a hot item with the FAA for busts in this area.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Don't really know. I don't generally even talk to DTW - I guess that makes me a bad person. My understanding is that sometimes they let you through, sometimes not.

This bit has been on the ONZ web page for years - dunno if there is any truth to it... I'll ask one of the instructors there and report back if I get an answer...

https://www.grosseileairport.com/html/pilot info/additional pages/fly in home.html
From the north or northwest the class B sits in your way. VFR clearance through the airspace is often rated with biblical miracles. But there is a way. The innovative controllers at Metro have an unofficial flyway known as ‘The Cage’. Plan to be over the Salem VOR at 3,500 and contact approach on 118.95 giving them your location, altitude, destination and request to fly ‘The Cage’. Sounding good on the radio will improve your chances for approval. When approved vectors and altitude changes will be given right to Grosse Ile. Be careful to not enter the class B without a clearance. This is a hot item with the FAA for busts in this area.
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Really appreciate the reply. And looking at my post, I should have specified.... I would likely be on an IFR flight plan. Does that change any of your advice? I suppose I could still cancel and ask for the flyway.

As I said, my experience with Charlotte, even on an IFR flight plan, is that they usually push me 30 mi east or west to avoid the airspace entirely. I'm already dealing with some alterations in the route to avoid any long overwater legs, so I'd rather just plan ahead to avoid the airspace if they're going to do that to me.
 
Ryan2 said:
I would likely be on an IFR flight plan. Does that change any of your advice?
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The response from an instructor friend that flies out of ONZ on the chances of getting clearance while IFR...

"I would say the odds are pretty good. One way to monitor usage is to keep an eye on Flightaware arrivals to ONZ from the west/northwest - both IFR and VFR. One can review the flight using the PLAY arrow and also click the cursor onto the altitude/airspeed bottom axis profile view to see flight data at that point in the flight.

Here's Brent Baker recently coming home to ONZ from Grand Rapids IFR crossing over DTW at 5K. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N8073G/history/20230226/2135Z/KGRR/KONZ

Here's Kevin Pentoney flying his Piper Pacer VFR from YIP Willow Run directly over DTW at 445pm on a Friday afternoon three weeks ago: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6043D/history/20230210/2145Z/KYIP/KONZ Note the altitude is about 2500 feet.

Similar here with Kevin going the other way in early February: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6043D/history/20230202/1937Z/KONZ/KYIP

The flight path allowed is dependent on the runways in use - they will typically not allow passage over the airliner's departure path where the planes are climbing rapidly, rather, they will pass the transients over the DTW arrival path. The arrival paths are generally a high (~10k) downwind, so they will also keep the crossing traffic away from the airliner's descending late downwind/base areas, too. The altitude could be lower if traffic is light as seen in Kevin's flights. A confident voice on the radio is probably a significant factor in success.

A couple of summers ago, I was doing some remedial training for the FAA with a pilot who busted Bravo locally - we did a Bravo clearance via the cage procedure to Mettetal in a Citabria. DTW was landing to the SW, so we were routed north of DTW. As I recall, after departing ONZ and establishing communications, we were told to climb heading 360, maintain 3000, then 4500(?) direct with a descent allowed after crossing the arrival paths.

One can always try, and, barring some arrival or departure push with high traffic, the chances of approval are real."
 
I think runway configuration will be key. If they are landing to the NE that day, you're going to get pushed around. They have to keep you away from the final approach course.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The response from an instructor friend that flies out of ONZ on the chances of getting clearance while IFR...

"I would say the odds are pretty good. One way to monitor usage is to keep an eye on Flightaware arrivals to ONZ from the west/northwest - both IFR and VFR. One can review the flight using the PLAY arrow and also click the cursor onto the altitude/airspeed bottom axis profile view to see flight data at that point in the flight.

Here's Brent Baker recently coming home to ONZ from Grand Rapids IFR crossing over DTW at 5K. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N8073G/history/20230226/2135Z/KGRR/KONZ

Here's Kevin Pentoney flying his Piper Pacer VFR from YIP Willow Run directly over DTW at 445pm on a Friday afternoon three weeks ago: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6043D/history/20230210/2145Z/KYIP/KONZ Note the altitude is about 2500 feet.

Similar here with Kevin going the other way in early February: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6043D/history/20230202/1937Z/KONZ/KYIP

The flight path allowed is dependent on the runways in use - they will typically not allow passage over the airliner's departure path where the planes are climbing rapidly, rather, they will pass the transients over the DTW arrival path. The arrival paths are generally a high (~10k) downwind, so they will also keep the crossing traffic away from the airliner's descending late downwind/base areas, too. The altitude could be lower if traffic is light as seen in Kevin's flights. A confident voice on the radio is probably a significant factor in success.

A couple of summers ago, I was doing some remedial training for the FAA with a pilot who busted Bravo locally - we did a Bravo clearance via the cage procedure to Mettetal in a Citabria. DTW was landing to the SW, so we were routed north of DTW. As I recall, after departing ONZ and establishing communications, we were told to climb heading 360, maintain 3000, then 4500(?) direct with a descent allowed after crossing the arrival paths.

One can always try, and, barring some arrival or departure push with high traffic, the chances of approval are real."
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Captain - thanks so much for the very detailed response. The basic takeaway is they're "not Charlotte" lol. Sounds like there's a reasonable chance to get a good route through.

Really appreciate the responses. I don't mind being vectored around of course .... But if I know they aren't going to let me in, I'll plan to avoid it in the first place, you know? It's easier to fly a 10deg more westerly course than get a 90deg turn when you're just about in the airspace. :)

Really appreciate your time, will let you know how it goes next week!
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I think runway configuration will be key. If they are landing to the NE that day, you're going to get pushed around. They have to keep you away from the final approach course.
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Makes sense. As I said above, I understand the need to avoid approaches etc. Just would take a different tact if I *knew* they would route me around the Bravo.

For my own edification ... I hear professional pilots often say things like "landing north" or "landing west.".

What exactly does that mean? Is landing north mean landing on the north facing runway (36?) or does it mean approaching the airport from the north.

It's not vernacular that I ever was taught.....
 
Ryan2 said:
Makes sense. As I said above, I understand the need to avoid approaches etc. Just would take a different tact if I *knew* they would route me around the Bravo.

For my own edification ... I hear professional pilots often say things like "landing north" or "landing west.".

What exactly does that mean? Is landing north mean landing on the north facing runway (36?) or does it mean approaching the airport from the north.

It's not vernacular that I ever was taught.....
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It's runway configuration. The direction they are landing.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
It's runway configuration. The direction they are landing.
Click to expand...

I understand that. At the risk of sounding dense - if they are "landing north" that means they are approaching from the south and landing FACING North.

Is that correct?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
LOL - my buddy Joe is one of those who will explain how to build a clock if you ask what time it is. :)
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It's all good! I like to understand things best I can.

I just appreciate all the time you took to answer a question for a stranger.

Thanks again!
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
LOL - my buddy Joe is one of those who will explain how to build a clock if you ask what time it is. :)
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Thats Joe! Great knowledgebase to have around for sure!
@Ryan2
It's hit or miss. Most of the time they will vector you directly over DTW. but that doesn't always work for them and you might get vectored around the B. Coming from the SE - departing NW at 6 - 8K most likely they will vector you directly over DTW. Thats been my experience anyway.
 
I've never been vectored around the DTW Bravo when IFR. My flight path is similar to yours. And about 50/50 VFR.

Which Michigan destination?
 
AlphaMike said:
Thats Joe! Great knowledgebase to have around for sure!
@Ryan2
It's hit or miss. Most of the time they will vector you directly over DTW. but that doesn't always work for them and you might get vectored around the B. Coming from the SE - departing NW at 6 - 8K most likely they will vector you directly over DTW. Thats been my experience anyway.
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@AlphaMike Thanks. Have a PA-32 so 6-8k is my usual cruise for XC flights, so that might work out well. If I get vectored - oh well. Just trying to be proactive.

@EdFred - Heading to IKW near Midland, MI, if the weather gods grace me with lack of icing conditions. :) Anyone happen to be in that area? I called the airport to find out about fees, ground transport, etc. but haven't got a call back from a few days ago. I'll try them again early next week. Looks like a great small town airfield.
 
IKW is a decent field. If you're coming from PA and IFR, why not just cut over Canada and not worry about DTW?
 
EdFred said:
IKW is a decent field. If you're coming from PA and IFR, why not just cut over Canada and not worry about DTW?
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Coming from southwest PA, would not be an efficient route - would have to go significantly north to avoid over-water and then turn west.
 
Oh, one of those guys that don't trust their engine and A&P. ;)

I crossed Erie and Michigan a number of times.
 
EdFred said:
Oh, one of those guys that don't trust their engine and A&P. ;)

I crossed Erie and Michigan a number of times.
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Congrats!

Not really a trust issue ... rather it's a risk management issue. Why take that risk when costs me about 15 minutes to avoid the risk altogether?

I'd feel pretty dumb bobbing around in the freezing winter water of Lake Erie or Michigan to shave off 10 minute from a 2.5 hour flight. Maybe I'd be a little less averse in the middle of summer .... but not much.

Everyone has their own risk tolerances, and that is mine.

Edit to add: I believe a direct route to IKW would still cross DTW's Bravo, so it's really a moot point.
 
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