Expanding Personal Limits

CC268

CC268

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CC268
So I am a low time private pilot (66 hours). My dad recently bought a Cherokee 140 (we split the cost). I went up with two instructors for about 3-4 hours of total time with an instructor when we first got the plane. Both instructors were very comfortable and impressed with how I handled the plane.

I feel like I have been a real wimp lately when it comes to winds. For instance today Deer Valley has winds (currently) 360 @ 12 knots. Active runway is 7L and 7R. I decided to not go today because it might be too much crosswind for me. I did plenty of flying in my training in the 172 with crosswinds like that and went down to Ak-Chin with my instructor to practice crosswinds specifically. He taught the wing low method...but I am more inclined to use the crab method in this low wing plane. So far I have adapted pretty well.

I know I can go up with an instructor again...but I feel like at some point I need to get out there and fly myself and push my comfort zone a bit. I can't fly with an instructor for the rest of my life. Does this make sense? I just feel like I am being really overly cautious and it might be hurting my flying because I am not "progressing" if you will.

The thing with a flight instructor is I would need to call ahead, schedule, etc...then there is no guarantee you will even get crosswind practice. I have an airplane sitting out at the hangar waiting to be flown and it just seems silly to not go out and practice these things on my own as long as I'm not out there trying 15+ knot crosswind landings.

I just feel like since I got my PPL I have been a big puss lol.

What do you guys think?
 
You're a big puss! :D

Get up and tackle it. By YOURSELF! 12 knots not bad. Just use your crab method and kick it out as you begin to flare, and then progress to wing low. C'mon you can do it.
 
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If you're unsure, get an instructor to go with you on a windy day for practice. But practice is what it takes. Amusingly, I learned at BJC where 20G33 was good student solo weather. They never would send anybody out like that here. Of course here, 3-5 miles in haze is common place and they dispatch students in that. On the front range, we'd never fly if there was a restriction to the usual infinite visibility.
 
mscard88 said:
You're a big puss! :D

Get up and tackle it. 12 knots not bad. Just use your crab method and kick it out as you begin to flare, and then progress to wing low. C'mon you can do it.
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That's what I'm thinking...isn't is better to do crab method vs wing low in a low wing airplane? Like I said I learned the low wing method during my training and it is what I used...but I've been trying the crab method and it doesn't seem too bad
 
CC268 said:
That's what I'm thinking...isn't is better to do crab method vs wing low in a low wing airplane? Like I said I learned the low wing method during my training and it is what I used...but I've been trying the crab method and it doesn't seem too bad
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Yes but you can't land in a crab, unless you have gear like a B-52, or your Dad doesn't mind buying tires all the time. Crab and then as you begin your roundout/flare, transition to the wing low method.
 
mscard88 said:
Yes but you can't land in a crab, unless you have gear like a B-52, or your Dad doesn't mind buying tires all the time. Crab and then as you begin your roundout/flare, transition to the wing low method.
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Yes yes that's what I meant lol
 
Id say just go and fly. You got the exposure and tools to handle crosswind. Nothing wrong with being cautious at all but have faith in your ability. You had to demonstrate to your cfi and dpe that you can do crosswind landings so you have the foundation for it. But like was mentioned take another pilot along..

You will be surprised what you can handle when when you have no choice but to do it.

In my cherokee I mainly use wing low..I was taught both and use both at times but wing low is my main way of doing it.
 
Well then get your ass up there and get 'er done! I think you need to do it by yourself to gain confidence in the maneuver. Read up a bit about it and then go up and try it. Don't make me come out there and make you!
 
mscard88 said:
Well then get your ass up there and get 'er done! I think you need to do it by yourself to gain confidence in the maneuver. Read up a bit about it and then go up and try it. Don't make me come out there and make you!
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Yea I think your right...woohoo!
 
If you're uncomfortable now in the same winds that you were comfortable in a different airplane using a different technique, I wouldn't say you've "adapted pretty well".

Take one step at a time...get comfortable with the new airplane using the old technique before you change up your technique. Or get an instructor to work on crosswinds with you in the Cherokee.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If you're uncomfortable now in the same winds that you were comfortable in a different airplane using a different technique, I wouldn't say you've "adapted pretty well".

Take one step at a time...get comfortable with the new airplane using the old technique before you change up your technique. Or get an instructor to work on crosswinds with you in the Cherokee.
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Yes sir!
 
Sorry @CC268 I'm calling big puss on you.
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Your actual crosswind component is 11kt and the maximum demonstrated crosswind for a pa28-140 is 17knts. You've got plenty of safety margin there.

Insert the crosswind component is not an operating limit discussion here.

Personally I prefer wing low for crosswind landings. I can crab it in and do the "kick at and stick it" as well as the next guy, but staying aligned with the center line all the way in "feels better" to me.

To add a serious point to the post: Practice how you'll fly, and fly like you practiced. That wind won't deter you for long.

Oh, and don't listen to TGOTI that called you a big puss. :)
 
rolivi said:
Sorry @CC268 I'm calling big puss on you.
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Your actual crosswind component is 11kt and the maximum demonstrated crosswind for a pa28-140 is 17knts. You've got plenty of safety margin there.

Insert the crosswind component is not an operating limit discussion here.

Personally I prefer wing low for crosswind landings. I can crab it in and do the "kick at and stick it" as well as the next guy, but staying aligned with the center line all the way in "feels better" to me.

To add a serious point to the post: Practice how you'll fly, and fly like you practiced. That wind won't deter you for long.

Oh, and don't listen to TGOTI that called you a big puss. :)
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lol thanks I agree! I need to get out there and fly! I will stick with the wing low method since that is how I learned...I just wasn't sure if there was a chance of striking the wing tip or something from doing that...but I mean I guess you do the same thing with the crab method you just do it much later.
 
There was another thread where we joked about the Long Ass Gear Leg mod and the Tall Ass Rudder mod that would allow greater bank angles at landing. They don't exist.

The slip or crab discussion is on par with High/Low Wing, Single / Multi engine, glass or steam gauges, Strippers / actual hookers (not fair, they are the same), etc.

I look forward to your thoughts in 6 months about how you conquered this.
 
If it's a matter of nerves over skills, I'd go solo.

Go somehwere with a cross wind runway, that way you have the option of landing on the prevailing wind runway if the cross wind is too much.

Also make the first couple passes low approaches, don't even try to land, know ahead you're going missed no matter what, depending on how those go, try to land on the next one, all else fails go around, all else fails a few too many times switch to the other runway and land normally.
 
It reads to me like you should get some time with a flight instructor.

I feel your learning will be a lot faster with some input from someone with more experience.

I have seen people fall into a trap of; because they didn’t bend metal they can now raise their wind limits to whatever level they just survived.

I feel doing something badly and having it work out is not the same as becoming a better pilot.

It is my observation that doubling the cross wind component more than doubles the challenge.

In my opinion gust spread is also an important part of the decision to attempt a landing.
 
Vance Breese said:
It reads to me like you should get some time with a flight instructor.

I feel your learning will be a lot faster with some input from someone with more experience.

I have seen people fall into a trap of; because they didn’t bend metal they can now raise their wind limits to whatever level they just survived.

I feel doing something badly and having it work out is not the same as becoming a better pilot.

It is my observation that doubling the cross wind component more than doubles the challenge.

In my opinion gust spread is also an important part of the decision to attempt a landing.
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I don't think I would go up in a situation where im that uncomfortable and bending metal lol but maybe I'm wrong. All I know is I'm spending a lot of time sitting on the ground and I don't have a flight instructor I can call at any moment to go fly when there is good crosswinds. I could look at the weather and guess on a day but there isn't a guarantee there will be good winds for crosswinds. I did a fair amount of crosswind practice in my private pilot training...I didn't fly for a few months when we were waiting on buying an airplane and I think it took my confidence away a bit. Doesn't mean the skill set isn't there to handle it I just haven't "excercised" it as much as I'd like. Idk maybe I don't give myself enough credit. But yea maybe I can look out for a windy day and get an instructor to go up with me for a bit. I guess my point is that I always won't have an instructor sitting in the right seat. I'm bound to come across some situations a bit out of my comfort zone at some point? Again I could be wrong...
 
140 with hershey bar wing?

Nearly the perfect x wind airplane IMHO. Crab it down, at about 100 ft, kick it straight and see what the wind is doing to you. Adjust rudder and aileron accordingly, touch down upwind wing a little low. Good practice when wind is light is to fly down the runway, stall horn blaring, upwind wheel just a hair above touchdown, then go around.

When I had mine, I always landed full flaps and rarely added a minimal gust component, because I wanted to be as safely slow as I could be so it would plant on the runway, and stay planted. I set that bird down once in a 20g25 direct at FDK without a problem, though the rudder was up against the stops. The rollout gets sportin' if you are late straightening it out when the nosewheel touches.

Do a web search on landing a Cherokee in xwinds. Lots of good stuff out there. You' ve got a good bird for wind, much easier than those big sails a high wing has.
 
Go out with an instructor on days so windy and gusty and nasty you'd never even think of going out on your own. Keep doing that until you're putting the airplane on the runway safely and reliably. Then when the day comes that you're out on your own and the crosswind is intimidating you will KNOW not think but know you can land the airplane... then you just go and do it.
 
At 66 hours I was just as apprehensive. But I am also the type that learns better by doing it, alone, than doing it with someone there as my safety. It's a mental thing, I suppose. I have to show myself that I can handle it. I have to shed the fear factor. Once done, fear no longer clouds my thinking.

I fly an Archer, and crab right down to flare, and don't dip that wing and add rudder until I start sinking in the flare. And Vance Breese is right that the gust factor is more significant than the actual winds. Another factor is consistency of wind direction. When available, I listen to the AWOS broadcast through nearly the entire approach, listening for changes in wind direction. Wide gust spreads and varying wind direction is a *****. But consistent with a narrow gust spread is cake.

Yesterday, I had to fly the plane back to home base after my nephew's lesson, as the winds were above his student minimums. 18kts gusting to 30, and about 30 degrees off the runway heading. As little as six months ago, there was no way I'd fly in that. But we have had some extremely windy days this year, and I took advantage of them and practiced. I still don't care for being tossed about in a small plane, but I am not afraid of the winds as I know that I can handle them.

Just go up. But have an out planned in case it becomes too much for you. Like a nearby airport with more favorable conditions. And load up on fuel as well. A heavier plane handles better in the wind, and gives you more options in case you have to bail and land elsewhere and wait it out. Sooner or later, all winds die down.
 
Rykymus said:
At 66 hours I was just as apprehensive. But I am also the type that learns better by doing it, alone, than doing it with someone there as my safety. It's a mental thing, I suppose. I have to show myself that I can handle it. I have to shed the fear factor. Once done, fear no longer clouds my thinking.

I fly an Archer, and crab right down to flare, and don't dip that wing and add rudder until I start sinking in the flare. And Vance Breese is right that the gust factor is more significant than the actual winds. Another factor is consistency of wind direction. When available, I listen to the AWOS broadcast through nearly the entire approach, listening for changes in wind direction. Wide gust spreads and varying wind direction is a *****. But consistent with a narrow gust spread is cake.

Yesterday, I had to fly the plane back to home base after my nephew's lesson, as the winds were above his student minimums. 18kts gusting to 30, and about 30 degrees off the runway heading. As little as six months ago, there was no way I'd fly in that. But we have had some extremely windy days this year, and I took advantage of them and practiced. I still don't care for being tossed about in a small plane, but I am not afraid of the winds as I know that I can handle them.

Just go up. But have an out planned in case it becomes too much for you. Like a nearby airport with more favorable conditions. And load up on fuel as well. A heavier plane handles better in the wind, and gives you more options in case you have to bail and land elsewhere and wait it out. Sooner or later, all winds die down.
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This kind of hit the nail on the head for me...when we first got the Cherokee I went up with two instructors and felt at home everything was great...landings were great...power off landings abeam the numbers I felt comfortable, etc.

But my first time going up solo I felt super nervous like I was for my first solo flight in my private pilot training. It's just a mental thing. Doing it on my own is what has to be done at some point...an instructor only gives me so much comfort on my own. But I get what people are saying...I should go do some strong crosswinds with an instructor some time.
 
Keep your tanks above 50% full if you like those long side slips on final, as you can unport at a bad time, out of glide range. Also the heavier you are, the more stable you will be. After the ppl, there are many things still to learn and master. Higher crosswinds with gusts, weather, congested complicated airspace, uncontrolled fly-ins, etc. Hang in there and work up slowly, or get some help as needed.
 
If you feel you must expand your wind limits on your own please have some alternate airports picked out and enough fuel to reach them.

In my experience winds can change quickly to the point that landing at that airport may be a poor aviation decision given your level of experience.
 
Well I appreciate the help guys. Looks like there are people on two different sides of the fence. I will take it from here!
 
CC268 said:
Well I appreciate the help guys. Looks like there are people on two different sides of the fence. I will take it from here!
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Only two sides to the fence on this discussion? Jeesh, POA is slipping, man . . . :)

Next day like today, fill the tanks, force yourself out there for practice. Plan on going around several times, and if you have to abort one of your go-arounds and land because your skills are so superior you just can't stand to NOT land, so be it. Heck, you might find you have to abort your first go-around!

If it's not your day, take your full tanks of fuel to any of the multiple runways in your immediate area that will have more favorable winds, not like you will be screwing the next renter out of a flight.

Rinse, repeat, with ever increasing crosswind components. Await the laurels and affection that will be bestowed upon you. When they don't show up, just give yourself a little cubicle dance party at a random time, ending with a double finger point at someone and (in your mind, HR is watching) say, "Suck it, I can land in crosswinds, be-otch!
 
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RV10flyer said:
Keep your tanks above 50% full if you like those long side slips on final, as you can unport at a bad time, out of glide range. Also the heavier you are, the more stable you will be. After the ppl, there are many things still to learn and master. Higher crosswinds with gusts, weather, congested complicated airspace, uncontrolled fly-ins, etc. Hang in there and work up slowly, or get some help as needed.
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You won't unport anything as long as you have above what's useful fuel in the tanks, no matter how much you slip.
 
@CC268 Thoughts...

Perfectly normal to be timid at first. We've all been there. Can be fixed though.

If you go do the low approaches, you have built yourself an "out" and the time it looks good to you, just keep reducing throttle and land instead... and don't forget on that one to keep adding aileron after touch-down. Not following through is a common mistake.

I know a very experienced CFI at DVT who'd happily assist when he has time, and can send a PM with info. If you fly with him, I suspect when you bring up whether to use crab or wing-low, he'll say what he always said to me... "Doesn't matter, use whatever it takes!" :) In other words, don't get too hung up on the methods... those are teaching techniques. Sometimes you just need all of the rudder and a fairly good bank! Bank it and push hard on that rudder!

That said, I'm typically a slip down final guy -- not because I can't do crab and then kick it into the slip -- but because I figure I can get the airplane stabilized at a speed and decent rate in the slip and HOLD it which means less messing around at the bottom. Then it's just landing out of a slip and keep coming with more aileron and whatever rudder is needed to hold the centerline.

You can also do a building block on that at altitude. Go see from the POH what bank angle would be so severe that you'd tag a wingtip, and then do some slips with exactly that bank angle up high. You'll probably see it's more angle than you think it is. :)

(If you can't find the dihedral angle in your old school POH just grab a tape measure and bust out some Pythagorean theorem. Heh.)

If you can do forward slips at that angle, you're 90% of the way to a landing in non-gusty continuous crosswind conditions, and you already know how to correct for gusts without a slip, so just apply it to the slip...

That crosswind simulator is very cool if you can find one, too. There's one here and I hear it's great. Haven't had a chance to wander over there yet myself.
 
denverpilot said:
@CC268 Thoughts...

Perfectly normal to be timid at first. We've all been there. Can be fixed though.

If you go do the low approaches, you have built yourself an "out" and the time it looks good to you, just keep reducing throttle and land instead... and don't forget on that one to keep adding aileron after touch-down. Not following through is a common mistake.

I know a very experienced CFI at DVT who'd happily assist when he has time, and can send a PM with info. If you fly with him, I suspect when you bring up whether to use crab or wing-low, he'll say what he always said to me... "Doesn't matter, use whatever it takes!" :) In other words, don't get too hung up on the methods... those are teaching techniques. Sometimes you just need all of the rudder and a fairly good bank! Bank it and push hard on that rudder!

That said, I'm typically a slip down final guy -- not because I can't do crab and then kick it into the slip -- but because I figure I can get the airplane stabilized at a speed and decent rate in the slip and HOLD it which means less messing around at the bottom. Then it's just landing out of a slip and keep coming with more aileron and whatever rudder is needed to hold the centerline.

You can also do a building block on that at altitude. Go see from the POH what bank angle would be so severe that you'd tag a wingtip, and then do some slips with exactly that bank angle up high. You'll probably see it's more angle than you think it is. :)

(If you can't find the dihedral angle in your old school POH just grab a tape measure and bust out some Pythagorean theorem. Heh.)

If you can do forward slips at that angle, you're 90% of the way to a landing in non-gusty continuous crosswind conditions, and you already know how to correct for gusts without a slip, so just apply it to the slip...

That crosswind simulator is very cool if you can find one, too. There's one here and I hear it's great. Haven't had a chance to wander over there yet myself.
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If you could PM me about that instructor at Deer Valley I would really appreciate it! I will stick with the wing low method since that is what I'm most familiar with
 
CC268 said:
So I am a low time private pilot (66 hours). My dad recently bought a Cherokee 140 (we split the cost). I went up with two instructors for about 3-4 hours of total time with an instructor when we first got the plane. Both instructors were very comfortable and impressed with how I handled the plane.

I feel like I have been a real wimp lately when it comes to winds. For instance today Deer Valley has winds (currently) 360 @ 12 knots. Active runway is 7L and 7R. I decided to not go today because it might be too much crosswind for me. I did plenty of flying in my training in the 172 with crosswinds like that and went down to Ak-Chin with my instructor to practice crosswinds specifically. He taught the wing low method...but I am more inclined to use the crab method in this low wing plane. So far I have adapted pretty well.

I know I can go up with an instructor again...but I feel like at some point I need to get out there and fly myself and push my comfort zone a bit. I can't fly with an instructor for the rest of my life. Does this make sense? I just feel like I am being really overly cautious and it might be hurting my flying because I am not "progressing" if you will.

The thing with a flight instructor is I would need to call ahead, schedule, etc...then there is no guarantee you will even get crosswind practice. I have an airplane sitting out at the hangar waiting to be flown and it just seems silly to not go out and practice these things on my own as long as I'm not out there trying 15+ knot crosswind landings.

I just feel like since I got my PPL I have been a big puss lol.

What do you guys think?
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All of my paraplegic students flew Cherokees, and all of them handled crosswinds. IMHO a low wing airplane is more of a pussycat in xwinds than a high wing.

Find yourself an airport that is not too busy and has an existing crosswind. Fly the length of the runway one- to three-feet above the surface using whatever controls are necessary to track the centerline. Do it over and over, decreasing the height as you gain confidence. Sooner or later, your upwind wheel will touch down and you will be rolling merrily along on one wheel. DO NOT LEVEL THE WINGS but maintain increasing aileron into the wind as the plane slows to taxi speed; should be fully deflected by the time you bring it to a stop. Pat yourself on the back. Now go back to the end of the runway and begin the takeoff roll with full aileron into the wind. As you gain speed you will be reducing aileron deflection but will still have some upwind aileron when the plane lifts off. Don't pat yourself on the back because your hands will be needed for things like flaps and throttles. Go around and do it again. Repeat as necessary. Rudder? Whatever is necessary to keep the airplane's longitudinal axis parallel to the centerline.

Bob Gardner
 
I am impressed with your willingness to come to PoA and put up a post like this. I am also pleased that everyone who has responded has been courteous. Way to go, guys.

Crab and kick (to wing low, by the way) works well, but it takes more coordination and practice to get it right. Using wing low you can tell well ahead of time whether or not you can hold the airplane on centerline. If not, you need to go somewhere else and wait for the wind to abate a little. Then come back home. Remember you don't have to land at that particular time (just carry plenty of fuel). Also, if you do decide to land, fly the airplane all the way to parking. Don't relax and let it get away from you. Stay on top of it.

As everyone else said, it just takes a little practice. Don't beat yourself up -- we have all been there.
 
somorris said:
I am impressed with your willingness to come to PoA and put up a post like this. I am also pleased that everyone who has responded has been courteous. Way to go, guys.

Crab and kick (to wing low, by the way) works well, but it takes more coordination and practice to get it right. Using wing low you can tell well ahead of time whether or not you can hold the airplane on centerline. If not, you need to go somewhere else and wait for the wind to abate a little. Then come back home. Remember you don't have to land at that particular time (just carry plenty of fuel). Also, if you do decide to land, fly the airplane all the way to parking. Don't relax and let it get away from you. Stay on top of it.

As everyone else said, it just takes a little practice. Don't beat yourself up -- we have all been there.
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Haha yea I don't take the comments here personal, but everyone has been really nice on this thread!

Thanks to everyone for all the tips!
 
I just spent thirty minutes writing a reply that was lost in the ether. I'll shorten it for you.

I was apprehensive about flying in certain situations including cross winds after I got my license too. I still am sometimes. I talked to a chief pilot at a local school (who said dinosaur meat tasted like chicken) who said it was perfectly normal to be apprehensive. He said, "average people don't start getting more comfortable until they reach 150 hours, better still at 200 and at 300 hours, they're a gorilla."

I flew Cessna 152s when I was in my twenties and invincible and the crab method was all I learned. I was never comfortable with that method. I only use the low wing method in my Cherokee and TO ME, it is the best method.

Don't be ashamed to admit your apprehension so soon after you got your PPL. It is a healthy feeling to have, especially if you are older than an invincible twenty something and have a wife and/or children who depend on you. You'll get more comfortable with it, fly often and stretch your limits with another experienced pilot, a CFI or alone but knowing that you always have an out if the cross winds are too much to handle with your abilities.
 
Need several tools in your pilot bag of tricks that can be pulled out at the correct time. So go up high put the plane in landing configuration with a cross wind. Dip the upwind wing into the wind with a slip. Feel the steadiness. Now do go lower and find a landable (no powerline) cow pasture with cows or you can use fence posts. Landing configuration with crosswind. dip the wing into the wind lined up on one cow. Now move upwind to another cow. Now downwind to another cow maintaining the slip the whole time. Now go around. See no runway with a cross wind runway needed. Gusty crosswinds need several tricks. Once trying to land in gusty strong crosswinds I set up crab and kick twice. As soon as the kick happened the tail came around. So dipped the upwind wing and landed it.
 
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