Excessive bounced landings... what was wrong?

[MAKG1]

Plus if it were full nose up trim, I would have had to really push the yoke to get it down. That was not the case.

No, I find most of my PA28 landings have a lot of nose up trim, but I usually fly with much more forward CG than you had. Especially if I approach power-off.

If you DID have a problem with the trim wheel binding, you have an NTSB report to make. See 49 CFR 830.5(a)(1).

 

[flyingron]

Not causing a PIO is more a technique thing then a speed thing IMO

But if you manage the energy properly (not too much speed at the time you round out), there's less of a chance of the PIO even getting started.

Starting (and sustaining) a PIO is technique. Boy I saw one on landing at the EAA last week. The guy bounced it hard and then right before he slammed it down on the runway the second time he shoved in full power. He was PIO on both pitch and throttle. Made me cringe.

 

[MAKG1]

Yeah speed is one clear factor for sure. Good lesson.

Even worse, you used a GPS app, which shows GROUND speed. Your airspeed was AT LEAST 70-75. Add in the headwind....

 

[nickmatic]

Actually, the app calculates TAS from the vertical speed and groundspeed. It's pretty cool. That's not to say I wasn't too fast, though

Even worse, you used a GPS app, which shows GROUND speed. Your airspeed was AT LEAST 70-75. Add in the headwind....

 

[VanDy]

Actually, the app calculates TAS from the vertical speed and groundspeed. It's pretty cool. That's not to say I wasn't too fast, though

Where does your app get wind information to use in the calculation?

 

[MAKG1]

Actually, the app calculates TAS from the vertical speed and groundspeed. It's pretty cool. That's not to say I wasn't too fast, though

That's not possible. You can get the crosswind component from magnetic heading vs. ground track (i.e., crab angle -- some tablets do have magnetic compasses), but there is no information for headwind.

 

[nickmatic]

Good question... I honestly don't know. Maybe from the forecast or METAR. It's faking it somehow. See attached snapshot from the app. It's a moment on short final on one of the landings. I'll look into that.

Regardless, I looked at my IAS on approaches and I was shooting for 70 but hitting it a little high sometimes.

Where does your app get wind information to use in the calculation?

 

[nickmatic]

Yeah a bit of a mystery until I do a test flight with similar loading. I'm not experienced enough to be sure. I did report my concern to the flight school where I rent. They'll check the plane.

No, I find most of my PA28 landings have a lot of nose up trim, but I usually fly with much more forward CG than you had. Especially if I approach power-off.

If you DID have a problem with the trim wheel binding, you have an NTSB report to make. See 49 CFR 830.5(a)(1).

 

[MAKG1]

Maybe from the forecast or METAR. It's faking it somehow.

It would do as well to use a random number.

The METAR is up to an hour old and doesn't show what the wind is doing as you approach to land.

I've seen METARs report 10 knot headwinds and gotten out of the aircraft to dead-nuts calm. Not unusual at all.

You're not compliant with NTSB regs to let the FBO handle it. Read the reg. It says immediate notification. Not when the FBO gets around to it.

 

[nickmatic]

Agreed that would be a hack. I wrote them and we'll see how they respond.

Thanks for the heads up on NTSB reporting. I was not aware of that. It did not occur to me until now that it might be a defect in the trim system, and it's just a hypothesis at this point. (It seems far more likely that I was doing something goofy in my approaches.) I have no access to the plane to check so the best way seems to be to let the FBO deal with it.

It would do as well to use a random number.

The METAR is up to an hour old and doesn't show what the wind is doing as you approach to land.

I've seen METARs report 10 knot headwinds and gotten out of the aircraft to dead-nuts calm. Not unusual at all.

You're not compliant with NTSB regs to let the FBO handle it. Read the reg. It says immediate notification. Not when the FBO gets around to it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually, the app calculates TAS from the vertical speed and groundspeed. It's pretty cool. That's not to say I wasn't too fast, though

Of all the places I'd like one of my trainees to be looking on approach and landing, a handheld device with an app that computes TAS from Vs and GS (even if that were possible) isn't one of them.

 

[MAKG1]

Of all the places I'd like one of my trainees to be looking on approach and landing, a handheld device with an app that computes TAS from Vs and GS (even if that were possible) isn't one of them.

He was doing a post-mortem of sorts. This was after the fact.

Yeah, it would be a big problem looking at a tablet on approach. I prefer to occasionally glance at the ASI down to 100 feet AGL, and then look at nothing inside the aircraft after that.

 

[nickmatic]

Reply from the cloudahoy.com guys:

We compute the wind by interpolating wind aloft data from nearby stations, and if applicable METARs too. We interpolate at every point along the route. We use the wind to compute the TAS from the GS.

So it seems like this is accurate enough to be interesting over the course of a flight, but not really accurate in real time for the purposes of discussing my landing speed.

 

[MAKG1]

So it seems like this is accurate enough to be interesting over the course of a flight, but not really accurate in real time for the purposes of discussing my landing speed.

Accurate enough for planning purposes at altitude. Not accurate enough for any real-time use. Winds aloft is only reported at points hundreds of miles apart, and is a forecast. Reality can differ hugely.

I really hate it when developers put form over function. That TAS display is utterly meaningless. Just because they can produce a number doesn't mean it actually corresponds to anything approximating reality.

 

[dell30rb]

Reply from the cloudahoy.com guys:



So it seems like this is accurate enough to be interesting over the course of a flight, but not really accurate in real time for the purposes of discussing my landing speed.

Sounds like a cool feature.

 

[joycem137]

Accurate enough for planning purposes at altitude. Not accurate enough for any real-time use. Winds aloft is only reported at points hundreds of miles apart, and is a forecast. Reality can differ hugely.

I really hate it when developers put form over function. That TAS display is utterly meaningless. Just because they can produce a number doesn't mean it actually corresponds to anything approximating reality.

Cloud Ahoy doesn't provide any in-flight information, AFAIK. It just records your flight so that you can play it back and review it later. Useful for the sorts of questions that OP has. I like to use it to review how square and consistent my pattern is.

 

[Silvaire]

...Plus if it were full nose up trim, I would have had to really push the yoke to get it down. That was not the case.

I don't want to be hard on you but you really need to bone up on the fundamentals of flight controls.

Next time you are up flying at cruise speed, straight and level with hands off the yoke, pull the power back to idle and tell us what happens. Do you seriously think you're going to need nose down trim in order to descend?

Either your memory has it wrong or your stab trim cable is hooked up backwards. Is this an overhead crank (can't remember what year Cherokee you said it was) because I don't know how it would be possible to fly a Cherokee at 65 kts with full nose down trim cranked in.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

But if you manage the energy properly (not too much speed at the time you round out), there's less of a chance of the PIO even getting started.

Starting (and sustaining) a PIO is technique. Boy I saw one on landing at the EAA last week. The guy bounced it hard and then right before he slammed it down on the runway the second time he shoved in full power. He was PIO on both pitch and throttle. Made me cringe.

Still two separate problems.

Not understanding that you don't want to push forward, I'd rather a student come in hot, know to just hold her off with power out, then come in sport on speed and not understand the attitude aspect.

 

[MAKG1]

Cloud Ahoy doesn't provide any in-flight information, AFAIK. It just records your flight so that you can play it back and review it later. Useful for the sorts of questions that OP has. I like to use it to review how square and consistent my pattern is.

It would work better for that.

GPS is well suited for ground tracks, and common failure modes are pretty obvious with a complete track.

But, I'd suggest it knows nothing at all about airspeed, whether real-time or not.

 

[nickmatic]

I definitely lack the experience to speak of these things with authority. I'm trying to learn here.

I was speaking of changing pitch in the flare, power already off. With full nose up trim it will take more forward pressure to push the nose down the same amount, no? I think that statement applies in any phase of flight as well.

Trim wheel is on the floor. It was definitely not hooked up backward. That would have been obvious to me at the latest during the first climbout.

I don't want to be hard on you but you really need to bone up on the fundamentals of flight controls.

Next time you are up flying at cruise speed, straight and level with hands off the yoke, pull the power back to idle and tell us what happens. Do you seriously think you're going to need nose down trim in order to descend?

Either your memory has it wrong or your stab trim cable is hooked up backwards. Is this an overhead crank (can't remember what year Cherokee you said it was) because I don't know how it would be possible to fly a Cherokee at 65 kts with full nose down trim cranked in.

 

[Silvaire]

Trim wheel is on the floor. It was definitely not hooked up backward. That would have been obvious to me at the latest during the first climbout.

Okay, understand. With the overhead crank it's more plausible to get it mixed up.

Like I said I'm not trying to give you a hard time but either you aren't explaining it right or something is missing because when you reduce power you're going to have to trim the nose UP - otherwise it's going to drop and the plane is going to try to keep flying the same speed it was when the power was in. To fly a slower speed the angle of attack has to increase (nose up) Even though it may look as though it's in a lower attitude in relation to the horizon.

 

[Hank S]

Don't push the nose down in the flare! Throttle to idle, give enough Up Yoke to level off at 3feet. As the plane slows down, give more Up to stay 3' high. When the stall horn buzzes, keep holding Up and you should settle gently to the ground. Do this at 6-10' and you will plop down firmly.

Pushing Down in the flare will cause the nose wheel to touchdown first. Then if you're lucky, you get a Pilot Induced Oscillation; SWA just had an unlucky nose wheel landing in NYC, you can, too.

 

[TommyG]

Those pipers usuall you have to fly them right down the the deck. But your weight could have been a factor.

Side note, I love flying into KBID.

You north side or south side of the field???

 

[nickmatic]

Yeah, I don't have great memory for the steps I'm taking... I just do it by instinct. I'll have to pay attention next time I fly. I'll see if I can load some ballast and move the CG back as well.

Okay, understand. With the overhead crank it's more plausible to get it mixed up.

Like I said I'm not trying to give you a hard time but either you aren't explaining it right or something is missing because when you reduce power you're going to have to trim the nose UP - otherwise it's going to drop and the plane is going to try to keep flying the same speed it was when the power was in. To fly a slower speed the angle of attack has to increase (nose up) Even though it may look as though it's in a lower attitude in relation to the horizon.

 

[nickmatic]

I may well have been doing that unconsciously due to the short runway and high approach speed. No matter that I've read about that a zillion times

Don't push the nose down in the flare! Throttle to idle, give enough Up Yoke to level off at 3feet. As the plane slows down, give more Up to stay 3' high. When the stall horn buzzes, keep holding Up and you should settle gently to the ground. Do this at 6-10' and you will plop down firmly.

Pushing Down in the flare will cause the nose wheel to touchdown first. Then if you're lucky, you get a Pilot Induced Oscillation; SWA just had an unlucky nose wheel landing in NYC, you can, too.

 

[nickmatic]

KBID was fun. I'll be back there for sure. I rent from Ventura at KFRG until I can buy a Mooney (and have the experience to fly it).

Those pipers usuall you have to fly them right down the the deck. But your weight could have been a factor.

Side note, I love flying into KBID.

You north side or south side of the field???

 

[MAKG1]

I may well have been doing that unconsciously due to the short runway and high approach speed. No matter that I've read about that a zillion times

Yeah, short runways require minimal safe approach speeds.

 

[gismo]

I may well have been doing that unconsciously due to the short runway and high approach speed. No matter that I've read about that a zillion times

An uncomfortably high airspeed on short final with a short runway should ALWAYS be your cue to abort the landing unless your engine is dead. About 99% of the overruns and a large percentage of runway loss of control accidents were directly caused by approaching too fast and trying to land anyway. If the runway is twice as long as you normally need, you can continue the landing safely if shift your aim point another 1000 ft down the runway. Either way it comes down to admitting that you already screwed up and must change the plan to rectify the situation.

 

[nickmatic]

Definitely. I'm very much getting how bad this situation was. I think doing most of my recent training at KFRG with long runways allowed me to develop bad habits. Not proud of it but now I have an opportunity to fine tune.

An uncomfortably high airspeed on short final with a short runway should ALWAYS be your cue to abort the landing unless your engine is dead. About 99% of the overruns and a large percentage of runway loss of control accidents were directly caused by approaching too fast and trying to land anyway. If the runway is twice as long as you normally need, you can continue the landing safely if shift your aim point another 1000 ft down the runway. Either way it comes down to admitting that you already screwed up and must change the plan to rectify the situation.

 

[Silvaire]

Again Nick - despite all of the advice you're getting here you said you had FULL NOSE DOWN TRIM cranked in. You need to seriously figure out why that was (if it was) because it's no surprise you made a crummy landing if you were configured like that.

There is simply no plausible explanation for it, I don't care how many bags you had in the back.

 

[gismo]

Definitely. I'm very much getting how bad this situation was. I think doing most of my recent training at KFRG with long runways allowed me to develop bad habits. Not proud of it but now I have an opportunity to fine tune.

This is pretty much how most of us learned what we know about flying. Make mistakes that hopefully don't hurt our bodies or checkbooks and find ways to avoid making them again.

 

[nickmatic]

Yeah, stumped on that one. It noticed it on more than one, if not all of the approaches so it stuck with me. Did not feel right.

At this point I think all we can do is guess. I'll report back when I next get back in the left seat. Going away for a couple weeks now though, so it'll be a bit.

Again Nick - despite all of the advice you're getting here you said you had FULL NOSE DOWN TRIM cranked in. You need to seriously figure out why that was (if it was) because it's no surprise you made a crummy landing if you were configured like that.

There is simply no plausible explanation for it, I don't care how many bags you had in the back.

 

[nickmatic]

Oh good, so I'm doing it right

This is pretty much how most of us learned what we know about flying. Make mistakes that hopefully don't hurt our bodies or checkbooks and find ways to avoid making them again.

 

[nickmatic]

So I finally got back in the left seat after being away. Yesterday an awesome trip around the NYC skyline, over Central Park, and down the East River. And again today for a short trip. Total zoo out there today with helicopters and airships everywhere, plus banner towing planes along the southern shoreline. JFK, Newark, and LGA towers were all incredibly helpful and professional as usual.

Had 4 people total and we were right at gross on departure. CG was not as far back as it was in the flight a couple weeks ago but since we were at gross I couldn't carry ballast to move around. Flight today was well under gross.

I did have to put in nose down trim when putting the flaps in on approach in both cases.

I was super careful to keep the airspeed down this time. POH says approach speed 63 kts and I'd guess I had it in the 65-68 range on short final. Harder today due to 20 kt gusts, slight crosswind, and lots of bumpy air.

Greased both landings. So like people were saying, I think I was just coming in too hot on those previous landings.

 

[danhagan]

He was doing a post-mortem of sorts. This was after the fact.

Yeah, it would be a big problem looking at a tablet on approach. I prefer to occasionally glance at the ASI down to 100 feet AGL, and then look at nothing inside the aircraft after that.

I use the tach to setup abeam the numbers. I glance at the ASI on final, but if ASI has failed not a problem (have had this a couple of times in rentals).

I did have to put in nose down trim when putting the flaps in on approach in both cases.

When you reduce RPM to land and are in flap speed, hit the flaps FIRST before trimming. You may find that trim is not necessary initially until the turn to final ... which in my plane is usually trim nose UP instead of down. Haven't flown a warrior, but cannot imagine there'd be too much difference.

 

[TedR3]

FWIW, the Archer I fly requires significant nose down trim to maintain airspeed after each notch of flaps is deployed. On short final with the flaps fully extended, the nose trim is almost full down to maintain 66 - 68 kts.

Makes rotating on touch and goes tough.

Its the only P28 I've flown. I assumed its normal.

Ted

Again Nick - despite all of the advice you're getting here you said you had FULL NOSE DOWN TRIM cranked in. You need to seriously figure out why that was (if it was) because it's no surprise you made a crummy landing if you were configured like that.

There is simply no plausible explanation for it, I don't care how many bags you had in the back.

 

[nickmatic]

When you reduce RPM to land and are in flap speed, hit the flaps FIRST before trimming. You may find that trim is not necessary initially until the turn to final ... which in my plane is usually trim nose UP instead of down. Haven't flown a warrior, but cannot imagine there'd be too much difference.

I'm definitely hitting the flaps first and then trimming, but this made me realize that I might be trimming initially nose down to maintain attitude and then again for airspeed. I'll have to pay attention again next time and delay trimming until I have the airspeed set up.

 

[nickmatic]

FWIW, the Archer I fly requires significant nose down trim to maintain airspeed after each notch of flaps is deployed. On short final with the flaps fully extended, the nose trim is almost full down to maintain 66 - 68 kts.

Makes rotating on touch and goes tough.

Its the only P28 I've flown. I assumed its normal.

Ted

Thanks Ted, good to hear. I got checked out in the Archer III here and don't recall there being much difference, but I don't have much experience in it.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

10 hours in a cub or a champ and you should not have that problem. If you can fly a taildragger correctly, land it well, a trike gear will be a breeze. Flying a light aircraft by yourself is always different from flying full of people, baggage, etc. your probably too fast on final trying to force it on when it till wants to fly. I write this assuming your hip on CG problems. Am I assuming too much?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

You have very little total air time. I would suggest more dual with a high time instructor before you Sally forth with passengers. It may save you alot of trouble in the future.