Everyone should be taught how to do spins and spin recovery.

Shepherd

Shepherd

Final Approach
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Shepherd
I was going to rant about the lack of real VMC to IMC training for a PPL, but I thought I would start with spins, since they are so closely related, and you want to know the way out before you get in over your head.

I'm old enough to have learned to fly when spins and spin recovery was required for a PPL.
Not only were spins part of my check ride, but the guy from the FAA (I don't think DPEs existed back then), actually told me how many turns in a fully developed spin had to occur before I was allowed to recover. In each direction.
I'm convinced that spin training was removed from the curriculum so Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc, etc could sell substandard spam cans. Just my opinion.
What's not opinion is how many stall/spin fatalities occur every year.
Again, my opinion, many of these could be avoided or the damage mitigated, if the pilot actually had spin training.
Spin recognition, spin avoidance and all the other euphemisms foisted on us by industry and the FAA are not the same thing as getting out of the spin when it happens. That comes from training and practice.

Here endeth the lesson.

Totally off topic: I'm meeting up with a guy tomorrow who has been flying J3 cubs since he was 14 years old. He is now 85(?). We are supposed to take a couple of Cubs and go get some breakfast.
Life is good!
 
Yes, yes they should. I was required to do spin and upset training for my PPL. Very useful skills.
 
I've been flying my whole life. When I was old enough to get my license, I went to a flight school immediately. Up to the time I soloed, I of course, had another pilot in the plane. After solo my instructor eventually sent me on my first solo cross-country. He told me to do some stalls and a few other things on the trip. I came back and told him I did and everything went well. I didn't do any stalls on that trip or any at all solo for a long time. I was afraid of spins. I finally decided this wasn't the way to fly and went and took a 5 hour course, then a 10 hour course, then a Pitts checkout, etc. I loved it.

Now with Youtube, people can get an idea of what a spin looks like from inside the plane. I will tell you that back then I had no idea until that first spin during my aerobatic course. It was fairly sudden and very dramatic. Not what I had in my mind. And yes, the course was worth every penny I spent.
 
I agree...people,say that there were more spin accidents BECAUSE of spin training, but like @Shepherd said, airplane's have changed as well. They aren't as susceptible to spins and/or recover more readily, even on their own.
Shepherd said:
I was going to rant about the lack of real VMC to IMC training for a PPL,....
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Tag me when you get t that rant! :D
 
I'm going to give a dissenting opinion. Without the "spam cans" a lot of guys (myself included) wouldn't be able to do a PPL. I am six foot and weight 210 lbs. With my instructor and gear, we can't put fuel in a 152 and it's tough to impossible to get a 172 into the utility category. I also took my intro flight because I was scared of flying and my first demonstrated power on stall I started hyperventilating and got tunnel vision. I hate roller coasters and the "whoa belly" vertical drop rides. Early on the thought of spins mortified me and I probably would have quit the license had I had to do them.

Now I am pretty comfortable doing stalls and while I'm still very apprehensive about it I plan to take spin training and basic acrobatics when I do my tailwheel. I don't know that I'll enjoy it. I may very well find it terrifying and never want to do it again but I want to learn to control an aircraft like that. Additionally, most fatal spin accidents are close to the ground. Unless you stop it at the onset of a stall you won't have time to recover. That's why the FAA moved to spin awareness training and concentrating so hard on teaching students to keep coordinated and be aware of the conditions that lead to stalls and spins.
 
The problem with spin recovery is the most likely point in your flight to get into a spin is base to final. If you do so the book is written, you aren't recovering no matter how hot you are on the stick. I've heard that spin training killed way more pilots than unintentional spins ever did, I suspect that's correct, since the training isn't going to save you unless you get into a spin at a sufficient altitude to recover.

Not to say the aerobatic training isn't valuable, all training is. But the FAA once required spin training of everyone, the reason they don't anymore is a pretty good one.
 
steingar said:
The problem with spin recovery is the most likely point in your flight to get into a spin is base to final. If you do so the book is written, you aren't recovering no matter how hot you are on the stick. I've heard that spin training killed way more pilots than unintentional spins ever did, I suspect that's correct, since the training isn't going to save you unless you get into a spin at a sufficient altitude to recover.
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Right, I agree. I think the biggest lesson from spin training is not just spin recovery, but spin prevention. You’re made aware of how the spin develops and the techniques to stop it before it ever starts. For those of us who don’t fly tailwheel aircraft, it also helps to get our feet more active and use those rudder pedals.
 
LoLPilot said:
Additionally, most fatal spin accidents are close to the ground. Unless you stop it at the onset of a stall you won't have time to recover. That's why the FAA moved to spin awareness training and concentrating so hard on teaching students to keep coordinated and be aware of the conditions that lead to stalls and spins.
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steingar said:
The problem with spin recovery is the most likely point in your flight to get into a spin is base to final. If you do so the book is written, you aren't recovering no matter how hot you are on the stick.
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A Cessna 152 will do a 1-turn spin and recover in 400 feet...if you don't hold an airplane in a spin, but recover at the drop of the wing, most airplanes will recover in substantially less altitude. But if you're not proficient in spins and spin recoveries (which means the recovery procedure is automatic), yes, you'll crash.

I had a student get me upside-down with full flaps in a 152 during an approach to landing stall. I think the recovery lost less than 200 feet.

If you look down the road at the effect a lack of spin training has, look at how many fatal Vmc events there are...the entry looks the same, and the recover is the same, but most pilots I've seen demonstrate inadvertent Vmc rolls can't come up with the recovery inputs to save their life. Basic spin proficiency would probably improve those statistics dramatically as well.
 
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steingar said:
The problem with spin recovery is the most likely point in your flight to get into a spin is base to final. If you do so the book is written, you aren't recovering no matter how hot you are on the stick. I've heard that spin training killed way more pilots than unintentional spins ever did, I suspect that's correct, since the training isn't going to save you unless you get into a spin at a sufficient altitude to recover.

Not to say the aerobatic training isn't valuable, all training is. But the FAA once required spin training of everyone, the reason they don't anymore is a pretty good one.
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True...but spin training allows you to learn how the airplane responds. How you could potentially get into the spin, etc. That is very valuable experience. The recovery is only one aspect of the training.
 
MauleSkinner said:
A Cessna 152 will do a 1-turn spin and recover in 400 feet...if you don't hold an airplane in a spin, but recover at the drop of the wing, most airplanes will recover in substantially less altitude. But if you're not proficient in spins (which means the recovery procedure is automatic), yes, you'll crash.
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Yes, but even if you are proficient, the chance of recovering from a base to final spin is extremely slim. A 400 foot loss is a lot when you’re rolling out from base to final.
 
Ryanb said:
Yes, but even if you are proficient, the chance of recovering from a base to final spin is extremely slim. 400 feet is a lot when you’re rolling out from base to final.
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So don't hold the airplane in the spin for a full turn.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So don't hold the airplane in the spin for a full turn.
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Easier said than done. I have my doubts that even the most competent fighter pilot would be able to recover from a base to final stall/spin.
 
Ryanb said:
Easier said than done. I have my doubts that even the most competent fighter pilot would be able to recover from a base to final stall/spin.
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Maybe they should get more spin training as well.

But if you say so, I guess I'll just have to believe that I'm better than the most competent fighter pilot. :rolleyes:
 
Shepherd said:
I was going to rant about the lack of real VMC to IMC training for a PPL, but I thought I would start with spins, since they are so closely related, and you want to know the way out before you get in over your head.

I'm old enough to have learned to fly when spins and spin recovery was required for a PPL.
Not only were spins part of my check ride, but the guy from the FAA (I don't think DPEs existed back then), actually told me how many turns in a fully developed spin had to occur before I was allowed to recover. In each direction.
I'm convinced that spin training was removed from the curriculum so Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc, etc could sell substandard spam cans. Just my opinion.
What's not opinion is how many stall/spin fatalities occur every year.
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I take it you're at least 86 years old?

The change was made by the CAB in 1949. Attached is the regulation amendment (with explanation).
 

Attachments

  • CAR 20- Elimination of spins.pdf
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A Cessna 152 will recover in a couple hundred feet from a spin that you already know is coming. Throw in the surprise factor, i.e. "holy cow, I'm in a spin", and that lags quite a bit more. Folks were killed in stall/spin accidents in 152s when spin training was de rigueur.
 
steingar said:
A Cessna 152 will recover in a couple hundred feet from a spin that you already know is coming. Throw in the surprise factor, i.e. "holy cow, I'm in a spin", and that lags quite a bit more. Folks were killed in stall/spin accidents in 152s when spin training was de rigueur.
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Exactly!
 
steingar said:
A Cessna 152 will recover in a couple hundred feet from a spin that you already know is coming. Throw in the surprise factor, i.e. "holy cow, I'm in a spin", and that lags quite a bit more. Folks were killed in stall/spin accidents in 152s when spin training was de rigueur.
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But if you're proficient in spin recoveries, you'll be done with the spin recovery before your brain gets through "holy cow".
 
Ryanb said:
Playing Mr. Macho again I see...:rolleyes:
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No, just stupid enough to have once believed that a private pilot who was working on an instrument rating would be able to perform basic private pilot PTS stuff.
 
MauleSkinner said:
But if you're proficient in spin recoveries, you'll be done with the spin recovery before your brain gets through "holy cow".
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I respectfully disagree completely. I don’t care how proficient you are, you’ll still have a pucker factor and a tight anus. If you’re so confident that you could recover from a base to final spin, than go out and demonstrate it for us on video. On second thought, please don’t!
 
totally agree. when I was in trailing for my SPL in a Skycatcher I also had a few hours in a 172 with my CFI. I asked about spin training but the school would not allow it. likely the lawyers for the school would not permit it.
 
Shepherd said:
I was going to rant about the lack of real VMC to IMC training for a PPL, but I thought I would start with spins, since they are so closely related, and you want to know the way out before you get in over your head.

I'm old enough to have learned to fly when spins and spin recovery was required for a PPL.
Not only were spins part of my check ride, but the guy from the FAA (I don't think DPEs existed back then), actually told me how many turns in a fully developed spin had to occur before I was allowed to recover. In each direction.
I'm convinced that spin training was removed from the curriculum so Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc, etc could sell substandard spam cans. Just my opinion.
What's not opinion is how many stall/spin fatalities occur every year.
Again, my opinion, many of these could be avoided or the damage mitigated, if the pilot actually had spin training.
Spin recognition, spin avoidance and all the other euphemisms foisted on us by industry and the FAA are not the same thing as getting out of the spin when it happens. That comes from training and practice.

Here endeth the lesson.

Totally off topic: I'm meeting up with a guy tomorrow who has been flying J3 cubs since he was 14 years old. He is now 85(?). We are supposed to take a couple of Cubs and go get some breakfast.
Life is good!
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Did the stall/spin accident rates increase after spin training was no longer required?
 
Ryanb said:
I respectfully disagree completely. I don’t care how proficient you are, you’ll still have a pucker factor and a tight anus. If you’re so confident that you could recover from a base to final spin, than go out and demonstrate it for us on video. On second thought, please don’t!
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Fortunately or unfortunately, the times it happened were before everything was recorded for "I'm on Facebook, love me!"
 
MauleSkinner said:
Fortunately or unfortunately, the times it happened were before everything was recorded for "I'm on Facebook, love me!"
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So you’ve actually unintentionally spun yourself on base to final?
 
MauleSkinner said:
But if you're proficient in spin recoveries, you'll be done with the spin recovery before your brain gets through "holy cow".
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And if you're not, you'll likely be done with the spin before your brain gets through "holy cow".
 
I know this will stir the pot, but my guess is many of those who are against spin training, have never spun an airplane or are afraid to (or they say they have, but are actually lying). I don't understand how anyone could go through spin training and say it wasn't worth while.
 
I recall hearing that yo could get out of a spin in a 150/2 by just releasing the controls. I've read the accounts of pilots who intentionally spun my aircraft. To call the tales harrowing would be to do them a disservice. I think the IFR training does in my aircraft will be far more valuable to me than aerobatic training done in someone else's aircraft that I'm likely never to fly again.

CC268 said:
I don't understand how anyone could go through spin training and say it wasn't worth while.
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Never said it wasn't worthwhile, just that it shouldn't be part of the standard curriculum for the reasons I outlined.
 
@MauleSkinner Huh? Not understanding your meaning of the quoted text.

steingar said:
I recall hearing that yo could get out of a spin in a 150/2 by just releasing the controls.
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Pretty accurate, but you’ll lose a considerable amount of altitude by doing so.
 
Mooney factory test pilot told me on a tour that you don't want to ever spin a Mooney. He was paid to do it.
 
steingar said:
The problem with spin recovery is the most likely point in your flight to get into a spin is base to final. If you do so the book is written, you aren't recovering no matter how hot you are on the stick. I've heard that spin training killed way more pilots than unintentional spins ever did, I suspect that's correct, since the training isn't going to save you unless you get into a spin at a sufficient altitude to recover.

Not to say the aerobatic training isn't valuable, all training is. But the FAA once required spin training of everyone, the reason they don't anymore is a pretty good one.
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Not necessarily true, the stall to spin on final part. To make a few bucks I have deliberately spun a plane on final and recovered. I did it at least once by accident in a crippled O-2 during the unpleasantness in S.E.A. They are recoverable if you learn how to do it and practice.
 
I have no qualms spinning an aircraft, and actually enjoy stalls, but have been thinking about this. If you are flying correctly, you will never ever get into a spin or a stall. So perhaps we are doing a poor job with initial and recurrent training with stall and spin awareness. I think that is the FAA's position, and I tend to agree, although I was initially resistant to that belief. We still have students dying with CFI's onboard in stalls gone bad, spins gone bad and even Vmc demos gone bad. The guys with the best safety record in the world, our part 121 bus drivers, don't practice spin recovery..... That would be interesting ;-) They just don't get into a position to spin one of those big boys.
 
Ryanb said:
@MauleSkinner Huh? Not understanding your meaning of the quoted text.
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No, I did not get myself into an inadvertent spin on final. I had two instrument students who had presumably demonstrated forward slips for their Private Pilot checkride decide to try it in an Archer at about 300 feet. Their technique was full rudder, raise the nose, and then apply opposite aileron. Both stalled in that configuration. Both entered a spin. I recovered both times.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No, I did not get myself into an inadvertent spin on final. I had two instrument students who had presumably demonstrated forward slips for their Private Pilot checkride decide to try it in an Archer at about 300 feet. Their technique was full rudder, raise the nose, and then apply opposite aileron. Both stalled in that configuration. Both entered a spin. I recovered both times.
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This is my worry as a CFI. I know spin training is mandatory for CFI training, I'd really like to do some recoveries from the right seat.
 
As long as I have access to a spinable plane, my guys do spin training pre solo.

If I can’t, at a minimum do real slow flight, real stalls; power on, off, accelerated and also falling leaf stalls pre solo.
 
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