Ever a reason to activate VTF??

benyflyguy

benyflyguy

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benyflyguy
Club 182 upgraded from 430w to avidyne 550. Love it. Getting used to it, using sim a lot of practice things too. Last weekend flew some approaches for practice and to work on the box. One of the approaches I was getting VTF so when I loaded the approach for fun (in the 430 I never did this because it would just get weird) I loaded VTF.
There I am flying vectors and blow right through the approach course. Frequency for ILS never preloaded. Was watching it but it never activated (because I didn’t activate the approach) Circle back and try again and this time even though getting vectors i activate the leg IAF to FAF- doing this automatically activates the approach loads the frequency and away we go.
Most times I have tried VTF it ends up screwing me somehow. Is there ever a reason to even use this?? Going forward just going to activate that leg IAF to FAF if I’m getting vectors.
 
No. There is nothing that requires VTF. There is nothing useful VTF does that activating the leg won't.

benyflyguy said:
Going forward just going to activate that leg IAF to FAF if I’m getting vectors.
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Almost. You want to activate the leg to the FAF but it might not always be from an IAF and when it is, it might not be the IAF you chose as your transition.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you "Activate Approach" you get GPS direct back to the transition you originally selected. Might be behind you.
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I've heard stories of guys flying into a mountain because of this.
 
asicer said:
I've heard stories of guys flying into a mountain because of this.
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There are functions which don't really do anything for you that can't be done just as well or better with others. Activate Approach and VTF are two of them. "Better" meaning more universal - we use them regularly for other things too.
 
sure there's a reason to activate VTF......when you're getting vectors to final.

can't speak for the avidyne but when you load an ILS in the GTN it will load the freq in STANDBY. I can't imagine loading an approach in the 550 activates that freq when you load it but who knows. if you use VTF correctly, it works. if you don't, it doesn't. activate leg will also work if you do it correctly and won't if you don't.
 
Have to go up and fly it again but I get a candy stripe coming off the FAF and magenta from FAF to field.
On the 430 I was in the habit of not using VTF.
the avidyne is new to me. It’s a really cool box that has a ton of cool options and I’m just learning. I know On this occasion I messed up, but was aware of it messing up and kinda just sat back and wanted to see what the box would do- just so I know.
Still have a lot of work to do. The iPad sim is very helpful to go back and re-fly something to see what you might have done wrong.
 
benyflyguy said:
Have to go up and fly it again but I get a candy stripe coming off the FAF and magenta from FAF to field.
On the 430 I was in the habit of not using VTF.
the avidyne is new to me. It’s a really cool box that has a ton of cool options and I’m just learning. I know On this occasion I messed up, but was aware of it messing up and kinda just sat back and wanted to see what the box would do- just so I know.
Still have a lot of work to do. The iPad sim is very helpful to go back and re-fly something to see what you might have done wrong.
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Can't really be sure without being there but this is one possibility. First, the word "active" can be a bit confusing because of how many ways it is used. I wish there was another synonym.

That said, an approach has to be "activated" in some way. "Activate approach," "Activate leg," "direct to a fix in the approach, and "Activate vectors to final " are all ways of activating an approach of saying, "I want you to navigate the approach."

Anyway, if you select vectors to final as the transition, it's just loaded. You still have to tell it when you are ready to actually do it - "Activate Vectors to Final" is how. It just means, "make the extension of the final approach course the active leg of my flight plan and sequence from there." In that the Garmins and Avidyne are the same.

But here's the difference. When you load an ILS into a Garmin, it tosses the LOC frequency in standby. The Avidyne doesn't do anything with the frequency until the approach is activated in some way. But once the approach becomes active in any way, the Avidyne loads the LOC frequency in the primary NAV box. No need to manually switch to it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
But here's the difference. When you load an ILS into a Garmin, it tosses the LOC frequency in standby. The Avidyne doesn't do anything with the frequency until the approach is activated in some way. But once the approach becomes active in any way, the Avidyne loads the LOC frequency in the primary NAV box. No need to manually switch to it.
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That’s what got me. Selected VTF on ILS approach loaded but didn’t select to activate and just watched nothing happen as I blew through it. When working on the sim id chose an IAF instead of VTF and habit for me is if I select an IAF i always selected activate. Avidyne has this nifty little area in the left side of the box with activate just starting at ya. More practice more understanding of new toy. Just another excuse to fly more.
 
benyflyguy said:
That’s what got me. Selected VTF on ILS approach loaded but didn’t select to activate and just watched nothing happen as I blew through it. When working on the sim id chose an IAF instead of VTF and habit for me is if I select an IAF i always selected activate. Avidyne has this nifty little area in the left side of the box with activate just starting at ya. More practice more understanding of new toy. Just another excuse to fly more.
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Although most if the functions are in both, there really are enough differences in the flow of Garmin vs Avidyne for dedicated instruction. Gary Reeves has pretty much made a career of it.

If it helps any, my "COVID Project" during the initial lockdown was a series of three videos doing specific tasks in GNS, GTN, G1000, and IFD. They're short. Not really an overview. They are tasks I've seen pilots have difficulty with and where there are differences.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmolGJZEeVA4ivopGnB7nG4CckULY22QY
 
I do about 1/2 to 2/3 Vectors to Final. Atlanta Approach has almost always vectored me vs only two times the full approach. In addition, I load and activate VTF when flying night VFR. A nice way to get lined up.

Activating VTF is done if fewer steps vs activating the the full approach and then going back in and select the leg. And in the off occasion when they want you to do the whole approach, not that hard to pull up procedures and load and activate that.
 
I have found most of the time in busy airspace I get vectored for the final. The controller usually says getting getting vectored, so have the full procedure already in there, I just hit VTF. Now in the boonies is where I have had more of the full procedure that VTF is pointless.
 
I use vectors to final all the time. The key is to not activate it until you are absolutely sure they are vectoring you to final. When you are sure, push the button. Nothing else to figure out.
 
eman1200 said:
sure there's a reason to activate VTF......when you're getting vectors to final
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This works fine if ATC doesn't change it's mind. Been caught more than once when ATC decided not to follow through with vectors and cleared me to a fix instead at the last minute. Then you are all balled up without any intermediate fixes dsiplayed and have to reload the approach to get all the intermediate fixes back and then activate the correct direct-to, which may not be the IAF. This has happened more than once when I was 99.99% sure that I was in fact going to get vectored to final and I did what I know better not to do which is select VTF on the approach. Just...don't...do it. It's one thing if you get crossed up during an IPC, but another if you are in IMC. If you have the whole approach queued up, you are prepared for whatever ATC throws at you for sequencing.
 
chemgeek said:
This works fine if ATC doesn't change it's mind. Been caught more than once when ATC decided not to follow through with vectors and cleared me to a fix instead at the last minute. Then you are all balled up without any intermediate fixes dsiplayed and have to reload the approach to get all the intermediate fixes back and then activate the correct direct-to, which may not be the IAF. This has happened more than once when I was 99.99% sure that I was in fact going to get vectored to final and I did what I know better not to do which is select VTF on the approach. Just...don't...do it. It's one thing if you get crossed up during an IPC, but another if you are in IMC. If you have the whole approach queued up, you are prepared for whatever ATC throws at you for sequencing.
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With a GTN and current software if you select VTF as the transition and then ATC clears you to a fix instead all you have to do is activate that leg or direct to the fix as all the fixes for the approach are retained. Non-issue IMO. Prior to software version 6.x if you selected VTF and that happened you’d be screwed.
 
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tsts4 said:
With a GTN and current software if you select VTF as the transition and then ATC clears you to a fix instead all you have to do is activate that leg. Non-issue IMO. Prior to software version 6.x if you selected VTF and that happened you be screwed.
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That's a huge safety improvement! I still have a 430W so no joy on VTF for my software version. It's really important to have all those intermediate fixes available.
 
yup, depends on what u got in the panel. not an issue for me.
 
Watch The Box.
VTF just means you are getting vectored (i,e, headings) to intercept the final course. In many cases that is what you get. If you are unsure, ask the controller “will this be vectors to final?” Some controllers are aholes and will shame you. Most will confirm VTF and give you an idea of their plan.
 
tsts4 said:
With a GTN and current software if you select VTF as the transition and then ATC clears you to a fix instead all you have to do is activate that leg or direct to the fix as all the fixes for the approach are retained. Non-issue IMO. Prior to software version 6.x if you selected VTF and that happened you’d be screwed.
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Isn't that true only if the other fixes are along the same path? IOW, if after pressing VTF, ATC sends you to the arm of a T, is it there?

PS...you are not screwed...

Rcmutz said:
GNS 430W here as well. Just say No to VTF button!
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Even in a GNS, VTF or not is a personal preference. The caution against using it when first loading an approach is not a prohibition. Nor is there any reason to avoid it later in the approach. Yes, if I am playing ATC giving vectors during recurrent training and the pilot uses VTF while another fix is in front of them, I will send them direct to it. But that's to make sure they know what to do. Their preference doesn't have to be the same as my current preference.

There are a number of situations other than loading VTF in every box I've seen in which you have to do exactly the same thing you do to "recover" from VTF. I've seen people stare at the box unable to figure out what to do and I've seen people take care of it in seconds.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Isn't that true only if the other fixes are along the same path? IOW, if after pressing VTF, ATC sends you to the arm of a T, is it there?
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As far as I can tell, the IF/IAF is there but not the arm of the T IAF. So I suppose if you were told to expect VTF, loaded VTF, and then was cleared to an arm IAF you’d have to change the transition to whatever IAF you were cleared to which in the GTN is simple or you could reload the whole approach, which with a GTN isn’t necessary in order to change the transition on the fly.

PS...you are not screwed...
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And my apologies for being overly dramatic there professor. All I meant was for the older software that you would not have any waypoints prior to the FAF available which implies you’d have to reload the entire approach if you needed them. For some, that’s something they’d prefer not to have to do if at all possible. YMMV…..
 
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tsts4 said:
All I meant was for the older software that you would not have any waypoints prior to the FAF available which implies you’d have to reload the entire approach if you needed them. For some, that’s something they’d prefer not to have to do if at all possible. YMMV…..
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Even with the latest and greatest you may still have to start over if you select VTF.

VTF = Controller wins.

:p
 
It seems to me that rather than activating VTF mode, you could just activate the leg that you're being vectored to. I believe that avoids removal of fixes from the list. The only situation I can think of where that might not work would be if the leg you activate is not coincident with the final approach course.
 
benyflyguy said:
Most times I have tried VTF it ends up screwing me somehow.
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If you're flying IFR then VTF is a raging disaster, a total abomination - never ever use it. Activate a leg or go direct to a waypoint.


benyflyguy said:
Is there ever a reason to even use this??
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midlifeflyer said:
No. There is nothing that requires VTF. There is nothing useful VTF does that activating the leg won't.
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I use it sometimes when VFR and flying to an unfamiliar airport, it helps me visualize the extended centerline and plan the approach better.
 
I use it, once you understand that controllers change their mind, you adapt. If they get you, just speak up, tell them you are set up for vectors now. Some controllers do get snarky if you ask ahead of time, I figure it's just because they are ignorant of the problems they cause. I asked a Boston controller before if was getting vectors to final, he had me pointed right at the IAF. He said to me; " er, I'm vectoring you." He said it a little snarky, so I told him, "Ok, but I've been tricked by you guys before, just checking."

Opposing bases did one on this too. Many controllers have no idea how disruptive things like this can be in the cockpit if they catch an unsuspecting pilot.
 
PaulS said:
Many controllers have no idea how disruptive things like this can be in the cockpit if they catch an unsuspecting pilot.
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Most of them have never been inside a light airplane.
 
tsts4 said:
With a GTN and current software if you select VTF as the transition and then ATC clears you to a fix instead all you have to do is activate that leg or direct to the fix as all the fixes for the approach are retained. Non-issue IMO. Prior to software version 6.x if you selected VTF and that happened you’d be screwed.
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Thanks for the update - wasn't aware of that new feature.
 
tsts4 said:
All I meant was for the older software that you would not have any waypoints prior to the FAF available which implies you’d have to reload the entire approach if you needed them. For some, that’s something they’d prefer not to have to do if at all possible. YMMV…..
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I'd prefer not to do it either, so I don't load VTF and I prefer to load from the most logical IAF and use Activate Leg instead of VTF.
 
Tantalum said:
If you're flying IFR then VTF is a raging disaster, a total abomination - never ever use it. Activate a leg or go direct to a waypoint.




I use it sometimes when VFR and flying to an unfamiliar airport, it helps me visualize the extended centerline and plan the approach better.
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I answered the question as, "is there every a reason to use VTF instead of some other method." Not, "are there times VTF is ok or useful?"
 
again, there is a difference between LOADING and ACTIVATING. not sure why I'm using CAPS but it's FUN. LOAD the full approach, ACTIVATE VTF, get yourself a GTN 650/750. although you might wanna get the gtn first in that scenario.
 
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