wasn't meant to be argumentative, just as a point / counterpoint. I hadn't thought about the VTF functionality to aid planning approaches on VFR days
You must not have upgraded to an NXi yet.
I'm not arguing either way. I pretty much agree. The first time I encountered it was long before the AIM cautioned against it (back in the pre iPad Stone Age
). It happened to a friend during an approach. I was his safety pilot.
I mean I guess it's not really that bad, but when you're single pilot IFR it's just that many more potential steps. The real thing that screwed me up once was was hitting the 'susp' button accidentally. That sucked
They key with some if these is familiarity. That's why it takes some 6 seconds to reload an approach, while others state at the box trying to figure out what to do.
My Garmin flying is relegated to the G-5000 trainer. As Garmin goes, this trainer is old technology. But, if I activated VTF (which I never would, but just saying...) if I need to reload the full approach after having selected VTF, it's just >flight plan >edit flight plan, then select the desired IAF or feeder fix. Surely, the more recent Garmin avionics have that capability (?)
Even easier. Hit the PROC key and load what you want. No need to edit or remove the existing plan. The new approach replaces the old.
I believe that would be more key strokes.
Is it possible to navigate to the first fix on the final approach course and select the bearing to the fix in a Garmin?
I don't know the "edit" system but loading an approach is as common a task as pushing the Direct button for an instrument pilot while it sounds like"editing" an approach takes place far less often, so loading's 5 taps in a GTN has the advantage of familiarity.
If I understand your question, yes. If you have an example I can be more definite.
Must be a Garmin FMS feature. The G-5000 is certified under Part 25. The edit function prevents the possibility of loading the wrong IAP when attempting to reload an IAP.
Sounds like this VTF thing only loads approach from the FAF through missed approach. Let’s say there are three fixes prior to the FAF on the final approach course. Why not load the full approach and then go to the first fix on the final but set it to the final approach course instead of direct to the fix. Same as vectors to final but keep all the points on the final segment prior to the FAF. Then it doesn’t matter what fix the controller references on the final approach course. They are all still in the box but still get the vector to final. Pretty much every box I’ve ever twiddled or pushed buttons on allows this setup. If the garmins don’t they should add the ability.
I guess I didn't understand your question.
It’s ok. I don’t know the garmin vocabulary. Makes it harder to ask the questions.
It wasn't a Garmin language thing. I answered based on what I thought you were trying to accomplish. Apparently didn't understand what you were trying to do which is why I asked for a specific example.
I think folks get too hung up in numbers of keystrokes, button pushes, and taps. It's all about preference. It's kind of like Jay Leno's line, "how lazy are we?" Or those who say, "don't use English with ATC because it takes too much airtime," and seem to prefer guessing to clarification..
Haha. That’s funny. But seriously the last garmin I used regularly was a non waas 430. I did get a little time on the g1000 in a Baron but it had the keypad that made it more like an FMS rather than the inner/outer knob with a few buttons I was more comfortable with using. I’ve forgotten a lot about those boxes.
It's not him. It's me. I wasn't being snarky. I'm still fairly sure that, yes, Gamin and Avidyne can do that. Of course one can create any course to a fix. Heck, you could do that with a VOR too. But without an example approach as a scenario, I'm not sure I'm answering what @Tarheelpilot is asking.
Ahh. I was not understanding either.
The final ‘segment’ begins at the FAF. VTF uses the FAF as the pivot point so to speak. It of course continues to the Missed Approach Point just as any loaded and activated Approach will do, VTF or not. What the Garmin, and I’m pretty sure the others do, is include all Waypoints on the Approach prior to the FAF that are aligned straight in with the Final Approach Course. In other words, an extension of the Final Approach ‘Segment.’ I think and am willing to bet a beer on.
It defaults to AMOLE. It will include IWWON because it is aligned straight in. If there was another Waypoint out yonder beyond IWWON that was aligned straight in, it would include that also.
You don’t have the option the extend the centerline off of a certain fix like we do in an FMS. See the above post. You’d have to load VTF then delete fixes you don’t want to be extended off of. Not a big deal if your fixes are behind you though since you don’t have VNAV to give you any good info.
The VTF function would draw a straight line for the extended final approach course leading to the FAF, AMOLE. In the latest Garmin models, IWWON remains in the flight plan (POBYI and SYOV would not). But in other models, even IWWON would not be shown in the flight plan, which led to the AIM "no VTF" recommendation.
Well, you can, but not via the VTF function.
I had thought an update had been done to the GNS's that made fixes beyond the FAF and on the Final Approach Course, selectable. But I guess not. Does Avidyne give their logic on why they don't. It seems like such a good idea and I'd think very easy to program in.
I haven't seen an explanation. Then again, I haven't seen a reason to look for one. I suppose the underlying assumption is VTF means vectors to intercept the final approach course and not to a fix. Or maybe they bought into the idea that you don't activate VTF until it's a sure thing?
The very first flight after my checkride with a safety pilot, I got "expect VTF" followed by "x miles from IAF, cross IAF at yyyyMSL, cleared..." not long after I hit the VTF button. @midlifeflyer claims that it's only 6 seconds to reload the approach, but as a newbie IFR pilot it was the longest 6 seconds I ever experienced.
The 6-10 seconds is based on knowing what needs to be done. But the real point is that it's just as fast and easy as loading the approach initially. The real challenge is knowing that reloading is the answer and that it's easy. Like a number of real world IFR situations, reloading an approach doesn't seem to be one well covered in training. And even some experienced pilots have trouble with it.The very first flight after my checkride with a safety pilot, I got "expect VTF" followed by "x miles from IAF, cross IAF at yyyyMSL, cleared..." not long after I hit the VTF button. @midlifeflyer claims that it's only 6 seconds to reload the approach, but as a newbie IFR pilot it was the longest 6 seconds I ever experienced.
Single pilot with a decent auto-pilot seems more important than in the days of VOR, Victor Airways and VOR/ILS/LOC IAPs.
I think that's right. The new avionics make the task of flying easier but the setup can be more complicated. I think part of the problem is (a) pilots who don't get transition training and (b) instructors who don't understand the systems either. I've received IPCs where I've surprised my instructor by showing them how some things work. And vice versa.