EV vs ICE the real cost to individuals. N/A

[FastEddieB]

I bought ($35) the 5-20 adapter for the Tesla UMC. That allows you to charge faster (16A) on a 20A circuit. Many outlets in garages and commercial buildings are 20A. My testing at home showed ~50% increase in charging rate going from the included 5-15 (15A) to the 5-20 (20A) on my 20A outlet in my garage.

I figured it was worth the $35 to have it in my truck on trips where I might charge at 120v.

Interestingly, the Tesla chart on their adapters page just shows 4 mrph for the 5-20 vs 3 mrph for the 5-15, a much smaller gain.

 

[Larry in TN]

Interestingly, the Tesla chart on their adapters page just shows 4 mrph for the 5-20 vs 3 mrph for the 5-15, a much smaller gain.

When I tested it, I got 4 and 7 and that was using a 25' 20A extension, which I was also testing. I think the figures on the website are a little conservative. I exceed their estimate on my NEMA 14-50 receptacle, too.

I've never done any serious Level 1 charging. Just those short tests.

 

[FastEddieB]

I did seem to beat Tesla’s estimates when charging in Tallahassee. The app was showing 5 mrph from a 15A outlet, and the mileage gained overnight seemed to be consistent with that.

 

[Velocity173]

So far 120 level 1 charging has met my needs quite well. I get over 40 miles a night for a 31 mile drive into work. Charge at work for 12 hrs (45 miles ish) and it pays for my trip home. Having said that, I’ve got a 240 15-40 adapter on the way to charge at over 20 miles per hour.

 

[FastEddieB]

So Having said that, I’ve got a 240 15-40 adapter on the way to charge at over 20 miles per hour.

On a 50A circuit, you should be closer to 30 miles per hour. I get about 24 from a 30A circuit.

 

[Velocity173]

On a 50A circuit, you should be closer to 30 miles per hour. I get about 24 from a 30A circuit.

I believe the Gen 2 mobile charger is limited internally to 30A so yeah, I should be in the mid 20s for mph.

 

[weilke]

The only Teslas I see in hospital parking are in the doctors lot. One is a neurosurgeon the other Ortho.

 

[FastEddieB]

I have a 15-50 adapter and with the stock Tesla EVSE I do see 30 mrph plugged into my 50A 15-50 RV receptacles. That’s at about 40A continuous - I think all the adapters tell the onboard chargers to utilize no more than 80% of the maximum available at the receptacle.

My day-to-day charging is from a 30A L14-30 receptacle here in TN. A short distance from either house I have 15-50 receptacles on RV pedestals. Probably rarely necessary here in TN. In GA all I have handy at the house is 120v, so using the RV receptacle will be a more regular occurrence.

 

[Larry in TN]

On a 50A circuit, you should be closer to 30 miles per hour. I get about 24 from a 30A circuit.

I believe the Gen 2 mobile charger is limited internally to 30A so yeah, I should be in the mid 20s for mph.

The Tesla UMC is limited to 32A. A 40A circuit will max it out. The Tesla Wall Connector ($500) can go up to a 60A circuit on which it will charge at 48A. I can't imagine that many owners need that extra speed.

I get ~34mph on my M3LR on a 14-50 at 32A. I think Velocity has a Model S so he'll be a little slower because his larger car uses more power per mile than the smaller Model 3.

 

[FastEddieB]

I had not realized that Velocity has an S. That would account for the slower charge rates, per Tesla’s chart.

 

[JOhnH]

The only Teslas I see in hospital parking are in the doctors lot. One is a neurosurgeon the other Ortho.

Doctors do tend to be among some of the smartest of us.
Isn't it great that the people with money are putting it towards companies that are investing in cutting edge R&D in order to help bring the future price down for the rest of us?

 

[pfarber]

It’s just a matter of time… in the early 1900s you could invest in a buggy manufacturer or a goofball named Ford who wanted to make cars everyone would drive. They’re weren’t adequate roads and infrastructure for them, not many people knew how to fix such a crazy contraption, there wasn’t many gas stations, etc, there was a lot going against em. The buggy n horse were tried and true…

today we have a similar bet to make.

My opinion is the ships sailed already… it’s not out of the harbor yet but it’s set sail…

I doubt we have access to those numbers but GM and Ford probably do… Seems like they’ve made their bet

No. Fords competition was the horse, not othe car makers. Once he got the price of thr model T to a few hundred then anyone could afford one.

EVs are simple out of the price point of most car buyers. A good KIA nicely equipped is still cheaper than an EV that you want to drive... By tens of thousands.

Once the cost comes down to mid $20s EVs will have a better chance.

 

[FormerHangie]

On a 50A circuit, you should be closer to 30 miles per hour. I get about 24 from a 30A circuit.

That 30A circuit would cover 99% of the driving population's needs.

 

[Larry in TN]

That 30A circuit would cover 99% of the driving population's needs.

I agree. The key is moving up to Level 2, 240v. Most people will out-drive Level 1 often enough that it will be an issue for them. Very few will out-drive even a 30A Level 2 for their daily driving.

 

[Huckster79]

No. Fords competition was the horse, not othe car makers. Once he got the price of thr model T to a few hundred then anyone could afford one.

EVs are simple out of the price point of most car buyers. A good KIA nicely equipped is still cheaper than an EV that you want to drive... By tens of thousands.

Once the cost comes down to mid $20s EVs will have a better chance.

that was my point… that many people bet against the crazy contraption because the infrastructure wasn’t there to support mass auto use, horses were tried and true, etc…

I’m with ya- I’m a clunker driver- I hate 4 wheeled vehicles. I get one w 100k on it and drive it till two wheels fall off so gunna be a bit before I’m in the EV market but I expect it to happen

 

[wayne]

I agree. The key is moving up to Level 2, 240v. Most people will out-drive Level 1 often enough that it will be an issue for them. Very few will out-drive even a 30A Level 2 for their daily driving.

I probably need to check on the pricing for a lower amperage. I got a price for a 50 amp breaker, which needs 6 AWG wire. Probably overkill for my needs. I could probably do fine with a 40 amp or even a 30 amp breaker and smaller wire. I drove a little over 5,000 miles last year in my car. Most days I'd probably be fine with 110v, but not always.

Labor would be the same, so probably fine just to stick with the 50 amp breaker.

I have a ChargePoint Level 2 charger ordered from Georgia Power. Just getting set-up for when I decide to buy an EV. Currently looking at a Kia EV6.

 

[Larry in TN]

I have a ChargePoint Level 2 charger ordered from Georgia Power. Just getting set-up for when I decide to buy an EV. Currently looking at a Kia EV6.

Why do you have to buy the ChargePoint? Does the EV6 not come with a Level 2 EVSE?

 

[wayne]

Why do you have to buy the ChargePoint? Does the EV6 not come with a Level 2 EVSE?

Maybe that's my ignorance about this. From what I've read a charger is needed for 220v. I thought they all needed something other than just an outlet for 220v.

One of these:

 

[Larry in TN]

Maybe that's my ignorance about this. From what I've read a charger is needed for 220v. I thought they all needed something other than just an outlet for 220v.

To avoid confusion, that's not actually a charger. The charger, for A/C charging, is built into the car. Tesla calls it the Universal Mobile Connector or UMC. The generic name is an EVSE for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment. For DC fast charging, the external equipment is the charger.

An EVSE connects the car to the power source. All EVs, that I know of, come with an EVSE.

The Tesla EVSE (UMC) uses removable adapters (dongles) to connect to a variety of different receptacles. The adapter includes a chip which identifies the adapter to the UMC so the UMC and car know what charging current and voltage the circuit can provide. They also include a temperature sensor in the plug which will allow the charging current to be reduced if the receptacle/plug is overheating. The UMC can charge at up to 32A, which requires at least a 40A circuit.

Teslas come with the adapter for a standard 120v/15A outlet. This is called a NEMA 5-15. Additional adapters can be purchased for a variety of different receptacles. The adapters for 120v outlets cost $35 and the ones for 240v outlets cost $45. I bought the NEMA 5-20 and 14-50 adapters. The 5-20 is 120v at 20A (common in garages and commercial buildings and increases 120v charging by about 50%). The 14-50 is a 240v/50A receptacle and seems to be what most people are installing. A 6-50 is available which is also a 240v/50A standard but it doesn't include the neutral wire (which the UMC doesn't need). I had the 14-50 installed in my garage as adding the extra wire didn't increase the cost very much and now it's there if I ever need it.

I'm telling you all about the Tesla UMC because I don't know the specific information about other manufacturer's EVSEs. The key thing to understand is that you want an EVSE that can do Level 2 (220v) charging. Find out what the EVSE included with the car(s) you're interested in to see if you'll need to buy an adapter or a separate Level 2 EVSE in addition to the one that is included with your car. As discussed above, a 30A, or better, 220v circuit is what you will probably want to have. Don't overpay for an EVSE that either isn't needed or is much bigger than you need.

I had initially considered buying a second UMC ($320 + $45 for the second 14-50 adapter) so that I could keep one in my car and one on my wall in the garage. I quickly realized that this wasn't necessary as there's no reason to carry an EVSE on your daily driving. You won't even need it for most road trips. My plan is to take it on road trips for added flexibility. I'm only had one trip so far and it wasn't needed.

That ChargePoint EVSE looks rather expensive at $699! I'd look for a less expensive option.

 

[FormerHangie]

I probably need to check on the pricing for a lower amperage. I got a price for a 50 amp breaker, which needs 6 AWG wire. Probably overkill for my needs. I could probably do fine with a 40 amp or even a 30 amp breaker and smaller wire. I drove a little over 5,000 miles last year in my car. Most days I'd probably be fine with 110v, but not always.

Labor would be the same, so probably fine just to stick with the 50 amp breaker.

I have a ChargePoint Level 2 charger ordered from Georgia Power. Just getting set-up for when I decide to buy an EV. Currently looking at a Kia EV6.

When I bought my plug in hybrid Fusion eight years ago, I had a 240 volt 30 amp circuit installed, which is basically a dryer outlet. Rather than have the charging station hardwired into a box, I bought one with a 14-30 plug and had the electrician install an outlet. I bought this unit from Clipper Creek. It's capable of delivering 5.7 kW, which should get you 14-20 miles of range per hour, depending on how efficient your car is. It's been perfectly reliable. Unless you do a lot of driving in the morning, come home for a while, and then drive a lot more in the afternoon, the 30 amp circuit should be plenty.

 

[schmookeeg]

Our EVSE does 220 and only needs "an outlet"

Ours is like this one, and has a pigtail so it can do 220 or 110v

https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Port...=portable+level+2+evse&qid=1645991913&sr=8-10

Ours sits in the frunk, we maybe use it once or twice a year

 

[wayne]

That ChargePoint EVSE looks rather expensive at $699! I'd look for a less expensive option.

Some of the others I've seen were more. Some were less. This one is highly rated; for what that's worth. Better, Georgia Power is giving a $250 rebate, instant if you buy through them and they have the same price as other retailers, plus "free" (i.e. included ) shipping cost. I think the cheaper ones were more in the 30A range, which may be all I would ever really need. I don't know, so I'd rather over build than under build as then I'd have to have it ripped out and redone. If I over build I just over spend a little bit one time.

Adding a 50 amp breaker, wire and connecting it is more than the unit; would have been much cheaper to have been done when the townhome was being built. Maybe I should shift and just have them install a 40 amp breaker, which wouldn't need wire as big either, which would drop the installation cost.

On trips I'd think largely use whatever is available at "charging stations". On the road I'd probably look for a a 350 KW charger (the EV6 can use that) for a quick charge and back on the road again quickly. If we wanted to stop for lunch or dinner, then something not quite as high powered would do fine. Overnight at a hotel a basic level 2 charger would be sufficient.

We don't drive on long trips, so I won't be charging away from home often.

 

[wayne]

Our EVSE does 220 and only needs "an outlet"

Ours is like this one, and has a pigtail so it can do 220 or 110v

https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Port...=portable+level+2+evse&qid=1645991913&sr=8-10

Ours sits in the frunk, we maybe use it once or twice a year

Then how do you typically charge your car if you don't use that? Really. I don't have an EV, but I'm thinking of getting one, possibly later this year.

 

[wayne]

When I bought my plug in hybrid Fusion eight years ago, I had a 240 volt 30 amp circuit installed, which is basically a dryer outlet. Rather than have the charging station hardwired into a box, I bought one with a 14-30 plug and had the electrician install an outlet. I bought this unit from Clipper Creek. It's capable of delivering 5.7 kW, which should get you 14-20 miles of range per hour, depending on how efficient your car is. It's been perfectly reliable. Unless you do a lot of driving in the morning, come home for a while, and then drive a lot more in the afternoon, the 30 amp circuit should be plenty.

The ChargePoint comes with a NEMA 6-50 plug. That can be removed for a hardwire connection. I was thinking of having it hardwired. Largely I didn't think there would be a lot of places to plug into an outlet like that, so.... Plus, I've seen more than one type of dryer outlet. Even if someone had one near where I could plug in, it might not be the right style. So, just wire it in and be done with it.

There are quite a few places to charge up, and more being built all the time.

The vast majority of my driving is within range anyway. Electrify America has a deal with Kia for 1,000 kWh of charging. The time limit on that will run out before I charge up that much "on the road".

 

[schmookeeg]

Then how do you typically charge your car if you don't use that? Really. I don't have an EV, but I'm thinking of getting one, possibly later this year.

When we had a house, we had a separate 110V EVSE on our porch. We're city bugs so 110 was enough charge for us, we planned to run a 50A/220 line out to the driveway but didn't get there before moving.

We are temporarily in an apartment complex and our parking stacker has a pedestal charger (220) that we use. The EVSE only really comes out at the hangar or on the road/visiting friends/family.

 

[Velocity173]

Some of the others I've seen were more. Some were less. This one is highly rated; for what that's worth. Better, Georgia Power is giving a $250 rebate, instant if you buy through them and they have the same price as other retailers, plus "free" (i.e. included ) shipping cost. I think the cheaper ones were more in the 30A range, which may be all I would ever really need. I don't know, so I'd rather over build than under build as then I'd have to have it ripped out and redone. If I over build I just over spend a little bit one time.

Adding a 50 amp breaker, wire and connecting it is more than the unit; would have been much cheaper to have been done when the townhome was being built. Maybe I should shift and just have them install a 40 amp breaker, which wouldn't need wire as big either, which would drop the installation cost.

On trips I'd think largely use whatever is available at "charging stations". On the road I'd probably look for a a 350 KW charger (the EV6 can use that) for a quick charge and back on the road again quickly. If we wanted to stop for lunch or dinner, then something not quite as high powered would do fine. Overnight at a hotel a basic level 2 charger would be sufficient.

We don't drive on long trips, so I won't be charging away from home often.

If you watch that vid I posted earlier about Tesla super chargers, they weren’t really pleased with the fast charging network outside of Tesla. I agree. I’ve looked at these fast chargers (Charge Point, Blink) and a lot of them are only 20 mile per hour 6.6 KWH chargers. If you read the reviews, you’ll see a lot of times it’s only single port or it’s broken.

While I really don’t have a need for the convenience (240 KWH) of Tesla super chargers, I can understand where a lot of people who travel need that capability. The current infrastructure for non Tesla chargers just doesn’t cut it for traveling right now. The “Build Back America” bill could change things but that’ll be years down the road. Something to consider.

 

[Jim K]

The Pacifica comes with an EVSE, but it's 110V only. I didn't realize some cars come with 220V capable boxes. Some people have cut the cord off the Chrysler unit, put on a 220v plug, and claim it doubles the charging rate. Sounds a little sketchy to me, so I just bought one. I wanted a bigger one anyway as my goal was to charge the car while the kids are at school so we can make both trips on electricity.

We removed an electric range when we moved in in favor of gas, so I was able to repurpose that 50A circuit for the Siemens EVSE. It ran about $500 and charges our car (which is only a 16kw battery) in a couple hours.

I really like the phev system. The computer says something like 80% of our driving is on battery, but we still have the flexibility to take long trips without worrying about where we're going to charge. Long trips like that are rare though since we bought the plane. Once all the kids are capable of buckling themselves in, I would kind of like to go back to a car. The model S & X are attractive and would probably work for us, but when you can buy a Mercedes e450 wagon for $30k less...

 

[Larry in TN]

If you watch that vid I posted earlier about Tesla super chargers, they weren’t really pleased with the fast charging network outside of Tesla. I agree. I’ve looked at these fast chargers (Charge Point, Blink) and a lot of them are only 20 mile per hour 6.6 KWH chargers.

Those are not DC fast chargers. They are Level 2 AC destination chargers and are equivalent charging at home on 240v.

You can tell by the connector they use. If it's J1772 then it's a Level 2 (or lower) charger. DC fast chargers will have the CCS connector.

The largest CCS DC fast charger network in the US is Electrify America.

 

[Velocity173]

Those are not DC fast chargers. They are Level 2 AC destination chargers and are equivalent charging at home on 240v.

You can tell by the connector they use. If it's J1772 then it's a Level 2 (or lower) charger. DC fast chargers will have the CCS connector.

The largest CCS DC fast charger network in the US is Electrify America.

I know they’re not fast chargers but most of their chargers are 24 KW or less. That's the reality of the non Tesla charging networked right now. Their DC fast chargers are few and far between. Their reliability is suspect as well.

https://insideevs.com/news/389891/exclusive-interview-electrify-america-problems-solutions/

 

[Velocity173]

Those are not DC fast chargers. They are Level 2 AC destination chargers and are equivalent charging at home on 240v.

You can tell by the connector they use. If it's J1772 then it's a Level 2 (or lower) charger. DC fast chargers will have the CCS connector.

The largest CCS DC fast charger network in the US is Electrify America.

I know what I did now. I tapped on the DCFC ChargePoint in a couple of towns and didn’t see the fast charger icon with the level 2 icon. I thought they were trying to advertise the level 2 as a fast charger. Still, the DCFC is listed as 50 KWs. That’s not that fast.

 

[Larry in TN]

I know what I did now. I tapped on the DCFC ChargePoint in a couple of towns and didn’t see the fast charger icon with the level 2 icon. I thought they were trying to advertise the level 2 as a fast charger. Still, the DCFC is listed as 50 KWs. That’s not that fast.

The US CCS networks are significant, though not as comprehensive as Tesla's Supercharger network yet. It is being built out quickly by multiple networks while Tesla is working to triple their own network. The gap is closing and will continue to close.

Go to www.PlugShare.com and set the filters for CCS only and a minimum of 150Kw chargers. You'll see a large network with some notable holes. Perhaps you live in one of those areas? Coverage looks good in my part of the country.

The charging experience is certainly better with Teslas. Plug it in and, usually within five seconds, you're charging. No need to deal with a phone app or swiping cards or tokens. The CCS networks have had a lot of problems with initiating charging but they'll work that out. Electrify America has a Tesla-like auto-start/billing system with some cars.

Tesla is definitely leading right now but I don't think the CCS charging situation is as bad as you implied.

 

[FastEddieB]

Some people have cut the cord off the Chrysler unit, put on a 220v plug, and claim it doubles the charging rate. Sounds a little sketchy to me…

I know, right?

But on the Clarity forum someone observed that the guts on the provided 120v EVSE were identical with European models that charge at around 240. And was brave enough to try pumping 240v into the stock unit. And guess what? It worked perfectly, more than doubling the charge rate from 4 to about 10 mrph. Enough others tried it no ill effect, that I grit my teeth and gave it a go. And I’ve been doing so for 2 years. HondaLink app just shows it happily charging at 240v.

One of the two adapter cables I made, this one to utilize the 240v available at our RV pedestals.

 

[GaryM]

The design life of the current Tesla battery pack is 300,000 to 500,000 miles. The upcoming 4680 battery has a design life of 1,000,000 miles.

And when that expensive, out-of-warranty battery replacement is needed, there are cost-effective options:

https://electrek.co/2021/12/23/tesla-owner-blows-up-model-s-dynamite-battery-replacement/

 

[Larry in TN]

And when that expensive, out-of-warranty battery replacement is needed, there are cost-effective options:

I've never owned a car with over 300,000 miles. Never owned one over 200,000 miles. The highest mileage cars I've owned I've sold around 150,000 miles which is half of the low-end of the design life (300,000 to 500,000mi) of my car's battery.

Why do you think I'll have to replace my battery out of warranty?

If a pack is defective, it's likely to fail within the 8yr/120,000mi warranty. It won't wear out during the time I'm going to own the car, even though I keep cars much longer than average.

The highest milage car I've ever owned was a 2000 BMW 323i. I sold it at 160,934 needing a number of expensive repairs. Over the 40+ years I've been driving, I've replaced/rebuilt one engine and three transmissions out of warranty. None of those were EVs. I doubt I'll ever own a car with over 100,000 miles again. I no longer need to.