EV vs ICE the real cost to individuals. N/A

[bnt83]

Same thing that happens with traditional cars, I assume. But how many 10 and 20 year old teslas are out there? SO I cant answer that exactly. But you don't get your years back when you keep buying new at twice the rate. The destruction is upfront with the EV. Sort of like home ownership. You only really get equity on the back end. Keep moving sideways in the house market every 3 years you're never recouping.

I've got a 43 year old pickup with the original engine and transmission that's still going strong. The OEM AM/FM radio does not work. I have not investigated the air-conditioning system much other than enough to know the pump isn't stuck and the clutch does work when bypassing the pressure switch. I believe there is a spare used torque flight 727 trans on dad's farm in a similar pickup I can rebuild and use in this truck.

The 17 year old Grand Marquis runs and drives like a new car, simply the nicest car I've ever owned. The 18 year old Grand Marquis takes me to work daily, the second nicest car I've ever owned. I bought a spare 4R70W trans for the 2004 for a whopping $200 and I'm feel pretty confident I can disassemble it inspect it and reassemble it successfully. I have about $7k in both cars, obviously paid cash for both.

 

[wayne]

$100, in Tennessee, to make up for to gasoline taxes you aren't paying. Probably a good deal for those who drive an average, or higher, amount of miles. I drive less than average so am probably paying a bit more than I would have paid in gasoline tax.

I would be in the same situation. I'd rather pay them the $100 though than the other option some are talking about, getting your GPS data to "see how far you drive". They already know too much about what I do, they don't need every place I go, when I go and how I get there. Next step will be to send me tickets based on how fast I was going or if I didn't stop at an intersection in a parking lot (I often do that at 6 am on the way to the gym).

 

[Palmpilot]

I never understood the folks who use their garages for storage and park outside.

As a lazy person, I can tell you that the main reason for it is laziness. It takes time and effort to get rid of stuff, especially after it has accumulated.

 

[Palmpilot]

I've got a 43 year old pickup with the original engine and transmission that's still going strong. The OEM AM/FM radio does not work. I have not investigated the air-conditioning system much other than enough to know the pump isn't stuck and the clutch does work when bypassing the pressure switch. I believe there is a spare used torque flight 727 trans on dad's farm in a similar pickup I can rebuild and use in this truck.

The 17 year old Grand Marquis runs and drives like a new car, simply the nicest car I've ever owned. The 18 year old Grand Marquis takes me to work daily, the second nicest car I've ever owned. I bought a spare 4R70W trans for the 2004 for a whopping $200 and I'm feel pretty confident I can disassemble it inspect it and reassemble it successfully. I have about $7k in both cars, obviously paid cash for both.

I'm still driving the Civic hybrid that I bought new in 2003, and once in a while I drive the Toyota pickup that I bought new in 1985.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm still driving the Civic hybrid that I bought new in 2003, and once in a while I drive the Toyota pickup that I bought new in 1985.

This one?

https://uncrate.com/back-to-the-future-toyota-truck/

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'm always surprised when people leave their cars outside.

The HOA doesn’t allow storing trailers outside, and my wife doesn’t allow me to use the tablesaw, planer, etc., in the house. The garage is all that’s left.

 

[steingar]

The last time I thought about an electric car the cost differential wouldn't be made up by 10 years of driving, even with the subsidy. That said, I honestly don't drive that much. Then again, if I want to go on a trip my car can easily do the job. Your electric vehicle, not so much.

Of course, as in all things, subject to change. But someone else said it. Saying the EV's pollute less is fantasy.

 

[Bob Noel]

The HOA doesn’t allow storing trailers outside, and my wife doesn’t allow me to use the tablesaw, planer, etc., in the house. The garage is all that’s left.

no basement?

 

[wayne]

The HOA doesn’t allow storing trailers outside, and my wife doesn’t allow me to use the tablesaw, planer, etc., in the house. The garage is all that’s left.

I had a full woodworking shop in my basement. We downsized to a townhome. I had to sell it all. The two car garage is tiny, just barely enough room for the cars. I can't do the shop in the garage like some people can, and wheel the tools up against the walls. There wouldn't be enough room for the cars due to the garage being so small.

My wife would be more willing to park outside than I am. But there's no way I could get away with her car outside so I could have my car and woodworking tools inside.

I still have some smaller tools, plus my midi lathe; haven't used it yet with work and other things. Taking an early retirement at the end of July. Planning on getting back to turning after that.

One guy across the street had half of their garage with some tools set-up. Now both cars are inside. Looked like a portable tablesaw and such though. Mostly I see "stuff" stored in the garage.

We installed two hanging storage racks in the garage above our cars. Mostly Christmas decorations, but some other things as well. We can get quite a bit up there. They supposedly hold up to 600 lbs each. The stuff we have up there is mostly volume, not weight, so that's not problem. Part of our downsizing was to toss a bunch of stuff we hadn't really used in a while.

 

[Bob Noel]

The HOA doesn’t allow storing trailers outside, and my wife doesn’t allow me to use the tablesaw, planer, etc., in the house. The garage is all that’s left.

I worked at a company that didn't have any offices in trailers (the town didn't allow trailers). They were relocatable office spaces (pay no attention to the data plate on the wall and pay no attention to the axles under the floor... no tires, not a trailer).

 

[wayne]

The last time I thought about an electric car the cost differential wouldn't be made up by 10 years of driving, even with the subsidy. That said, I honestly don't drive that much. Then again, if I want to go on a trip my car can easily do the job. Your electric vehicle, not so much.

I don't drive much either. I was thinking about getting an EV, but concerned about the "range". Then I realized we rarely every drive far any more. It's very rare for us to drive outside of the Atlanta metro area. If we're going far, we fly; private or commercial.

The prices can be staggering though, even with the subsidy and lower fuel costs.

Of course, as in all things, subject to change. But someone else said it. Saying the EV's pollute less is fantasy.

It's been shown that they do pollute less. It takes time for that to accrue due to the initial manufacturing process pollution, and with your short mileage it might take a really long time, but it they end up polluting less. For the average US driver it's about 2.5 years. For me it would be more like 7 or 8 years at my current annual mileage.

 

[JOhnH]

no basement?

In Florida we call basements, "indoor swimming pools".

 

[Bob Noel]

In Florida we call basements, "indoor swimming pools".

understood. But, isn't MauleSkinner in Kansas?

 

[Palmpilot]

This one?

https://uncrate.com/back-to-the-future-toyota-truck/

That one's in MUCH better shape than mine, plus mine is the long-bed model, and not a crew cab.

 

[Palmpilot]

The HOA doesn’t allow storing trailers outside, and my wife doesn’t allow me to use the tablesaw, planer, etc., in the house. The garage is all that’s left.

That reminds me, I do have a drill press and a couple of lathes in mine, plus an inherited model-railroad layout. They're difficult to get to though, because of all the accumulated clutter.

 

[SoonerAviator]

understood. But, isn't MauleSkinner in Kansas?

Not a ton of basements in KS/OK/TX/AR that I've ever seen. Seems to get more popular the further north and east you go in the US. Around here, it's usually in the homes built before the 50's, but even then it's rare. Some claim water table being so high around here, but I'm sure that can be dealt with if you really wanted one. Unless you made a REALLY reinforced basement ceiling/structure, I don't think I'd want to ride out a tornado worrying about the top 2 stories of my house ending up on my family in the basement.

 

[MauleSkinner]

no basement?

That’s part of my wife’s part of the house.

 

[PaulMillner]

One can only hope.

Georgia Power has an EV rate, but I don't think it makes much sense. At least not for me. It does give a super cheap rate at night, but doubles the peak rate in the afternoon during the summer. Guess what we use every afternoon in the summer in Atlanta? Air conditioning. Lots and lots of air conditioning. If we use the oven for cooking dinner it would fall in that time slot too.

The EV on-peak rate is 20¢ / kWh in the afternoons, 2pm - 7pm, during the summer. Normal residential rates in the summer are 5.8¢ / kWh for the first 650 kWh, then 9.7¢ / kWh for 650 - 1000, then 10¢ / kWh for all over 1000. So the on-peak is double the highest normal rate.

The EV off-peak rate is 7¢ / kWh which is slightly above the first 650 kWh rate and slightly below the 650 - 1000 kWh rate in the summer. Unfortunately it's above the highest rate in the winter which is the first 650 kWh at 5.9¢ kWh. So all winter long I'll pay more for power.

The EV super off-peak is only 1¢ / kWh, which is great, but it's only in the middle of the night 11 pm - 7 am. There might be a little AC at night, but not much. No oven, TV, computers or much running at that time. Just the refrigerator, which is often the 2nd biggest electrical consumer after HVAC, and a little AC.

We use 1600 - 1900 kWh each month in the summer. The current billing doesn't show time of day, but I would imagine the 2pm - 7pm time slot is a lot of that power as that's the hottest part of the day. Charging an EV battery is a drop in that bucket. No way I can make that up with their "EV rate" package. I'm better off paying regular rates. I hope they have a better offer in the future. It doesn't even need to be 1¢ / kWh, just a lower rate at night. Just don't jack up the day time rates even higher. Sheesh.

I'd have to do a lot of driving to make up those "savings".

Sounds like you need a second meter... that's a standard offer around here... EV meter for the car.

 

[Jim K]

I doubt that a car dealer, or the manufacturer for that matter, would allow the consumer to benefit from a government tax credit. That is just a good reason to inflate the price by $7500.
I went about trying to purchase a non-Tesla EV while I living in CA many years back because the state offered an additional $2500 tax credit. I looked at the sales price in San Diego and also across the border in Yuma(no additional $2500 tax credit). The sales price for the SAME car in Yuma was, unsurprisingly, $2500 less than the one offered in San Diego. Weird.

The phev Pacifica is about 3 grand more than the gas version in the same trim. Having driven a gas model back from Georgia, I can say it would be money well spent even without the subsidy, as the 7 speed transmission in the gas model sucks. It saves us about $300/ month in fuel. I'm sure they would drop the price if the subsidy went away, as they have to meet their cafe mandates, but I also don't doubt it costs about that much more to produce.

 

[FastEddieB]

This is in no way an attempt to justify the cost advantage of owning an EV. Just a real world comparison of what a given FL trip in a Tesla Model 3 cost me, compared with 2 other vehicles we own.

Notes:

1) We charged more often than strictly necessary, even with the Long Range model trying to avoid range anxiety.

2) We charged overnight twice at a friend’s place in Tallahassee, picking up a total of about 120 miles of range from a standard 120v outlet. Had we not done that, we’d have spent a few more dollars at the Supercharger stations.

Clearly, it would take a lot of miles to come out ahead enough to justify the fuel cost difference an EV entails. One could certainly buy an equivalent ICE car for far less and come out way ahead. But if you bought an similarly priced ICE car (at around $51k), the fuel cost savings could certainly add up over time.

I think a quirk of human psychology tends to favor a one time up front expense over a constant hit at the pump, at maybe $50 a hit. But a lot of rationalization and emotion goes into any new car purchase anyway, and those are always huge factors regardless.

 

[Pi1otguy]

The phev Pacifica is about 3 grand more than the gas version in the same trim. Having driven a gas model back from Georgia, I can say it would be money well spent even without the subsidy, as the 7 speed transmission in the gas model sucks. It saves us about $300/ month in fuel. I'm sure they would drop the price if the subsidy went away, as they have to meet their cafe mandates, but I also don't doubt it costs about that much more to produce.

I'd imagine that once home solar and/or wind becomes cheaper and more common, the costs per mile will tumble. At the current trajectory for electric costs (in CA for example), I'm not sure. But if you self generate...

My dream is that every house with a yard would have a detached energy shed with a dangerously absurd storage capacity.

Now, for those who park on the street, idk.

 

[AggieMike88]

@FastEddieB ... for your next trip, see if www.abetterrouteplanner.com is your cup of tea. It's like ForeFlight for EV's and can take real world data from vehicle and weather and help you plan when you need to hit the SC for a top off.

 

[bluesideup]

Clearly, it would take a lot of miles to come out ahead enough to justify the fuel cost difference an EV entails. One could certainly buy an equivalent ICE car for far less and come out way ahead. But if you bought an similarly priced ICE car (at around $51k), the fuel cost savings could certainly add up over time.

Hi.
Also don't forget the actual built cost, someone has to pay for that. To be more accurate we should take that into account?

 

[wayne]

I think a quirk of human psychology tends to favor a one time up front expense over a constant hit at the pump, at maybe $50 a hit. But a lot of rationalization and emotion goes into any new car purchase anyway, and those are always huge factors regardless.

I think that depends upon the financial standing and knowledge of the buyer. Many will buy the cheaper upfront option because PRICE! Some will do it as they can't write the big check or qualify for the loan. Others have the financial means and knowledge and will go for the long term best option, whatever that option is.

Often though, cars are very emotional purchases. Little to no logic in them. Case in point, I drive a Mustang Convertible. It's highly impractical. It even has a manual transmission; although I can claim that's a millennial anti-theft device. it is a lot of fun though.

 

[Everskyward]

Owning ANY vehicle in NYC is difficult, or more accurately expensive. But it's a large city (I so want to say "feed lot"), so many of the folks that live there don't find any need to have a vehicle at all. Many don't even have drivers licenses. They just wander around to the different stations where they can get food and entertainment.

But those who own cars would find it more difficult to find a place to plug it in. I live in another city where many people don't own cars. I do and have a garage spot, but no 220V. Would not even consider an EV at this point. Also can't see getting rid of my car.

 

[Albany Tom]

But those who own cars would find it more difficult to find a place to plug it in. I live in another city where many people don't own cars. I do and have a garage spot, but no 220V. Would not even consider an EV at this point. Also can't see getting rid of my car.

Oh yeah, I'm sure that's true. But at the same time, I can see garages putting in outlets and charging a premium for that. The investment wouldn't be that high. People who have cars in garages in NYC are already paying a decent percentage of what some people pay for a mortgage.

It also might even make sense from a maintenance perspective. It's not good for a gasoline engine to sit around for a month or three at a time, as all pilots know. But an electric motor and a battery on a smart charger? Not a big deal.

 

[tspear]

Oh yeah, I'm sure that's true. But at the same time, I can see garages putting in outlets and charging a premium for that. The investment wouldn't be that high. People who have cars in garages in NYC are already paying a decent percentage of what some people pay for a mortgage.

It also might even make sense from a maintenance perspective. It's not good for a gasoline engine to sit around for a month or three at a time, as all pilots know. But an electric motor and a battery on a smart charger? Not a big deal.

Just putting in outlets will lead to blown circuits. They will need to put in some sort of control system, which at that point likely means a hydra head.

Tim

 

[somorris]

I just wonder what sitting on top of a huge battery for hours will do to your reproductive capability. Just kidding.

 

[weilke]

But those who own cars would find it more difficult to find a place to plug it in. I live in another city where many people don't own cars. I do and have a garage spot, but no 220V. Would not even consider an EV at this point. Also can't see getting rid of my car.

In the not too distant future, the 240V outlet tied to a separate meter is going to be a standard feature of condo developments in urban areas. Wouldn't even be too hard to retrofit. A line that runs the length of the garage with a sub-panel and a sub-meter at each spot. If the number or EVs keeps going up, eventually you may need upgraded service to the building, but for a few cars in each garage it probably won't be an issue.

I used to live in a rental where your assigned outdoor parking spot had an outlet. But that was for the block&battery heater so you could get the car started after a -30F night. The draw on those heaters is modest it was just rolled into the rent.

 

[Larry in TN]

In the not too distant future, the 240V outlet tied to a separate meter is going to be a standard feature of condo developments in urban areas

There's a number of solutions.

Each car need around 30A for a couple hours (+/-) when it returns "home" each day. Doesn't have to be right away. Can be less for a bit longer or a little more for a shorter duration. You don't need 250kW fast chargers for each car.

The Tesla wall connectors can be networked and will share the available power on a single circuit. They're smart enough to increase the power available to other cars as the first cars complete their charging. That lets multiple chargers share a single circuit. I'm sure there are similar systems for the J1772 connectors which most non-Tesla cars use, too.

Networks such as Blink and ChargePoint have chargers that handle the individual billing. The property owner decides how much is charged.

I agree that it will become much more common in the relatively near future.

 

[Everskyward]

In the not too distant future, the 240V outlet tied to a separate meter is going to be a standard feature of condo developments in urban areas. Wouldn't even be too hard to retrofit. A line that runs the length of the garage with a sub-panel and a sub-meter at each spot. If the number or EVs keeps going up, eventually you may need upgraded service to the building, but for a few cars in each garage it probably won't be an issue.

Of the owners in my 9-unit condo with garage, 8 have cars, but none have an EV. I'm wondering what will happen when someone gets one. Right now we only have 110V, and only a few outlets. Also the garage power is paid jointly with the HOA fee. I can hear the complaints...

 

[weilke]

Of the owners in my 9-unit condo with garage, 8 have cars, but none have an EV. I'm wondering what will happen when someone gets one. Right now we only have 110V, and only a few outlets. Also the garage power is paid jointly with the HOA fee. I can hear the complaints...

With a small development and depending on the layout of the building, the easiest solution may be a circuit run from the respective units panel in the utility room to the garage. That way, no need to involve the condo assn or figure out how to split the bill from the power company based on charger readouts.

With a bigger 50 or 100 unit development, it may be easier to set up a central charging system for a row of cars.

 

[Jim K]

I thought I was going to be clever and plug my car in while it sits in my hangar. Free juice on the airport's dime. Joke was on me though as the 110v charger blew the breaker. Thankfully the neighbor's hangar that contains the breaker box was unlocked.

 

[Larry in TN]

I thought I was going to be clever and plug my car in while it sits in my hangar. Free juice on the airport's dime. Joke was on me though as the 110v charger blew the breaker. Thankfully the neighbor's hangar that contains the breaker box was unlocked.

What size breaker? Should be at least a 15A, right? The charger shouldn't draw more than 80% or 12A.

 

[FastEddieB]

What size breaker? Should be at least a 15A, right? The charger shouldn't draw more than 80% or 12A.

Exactly.

Maybe something else was drawing current on that circuit? The two EVSE’s I’ve used, Tesla and Honda Clarity, both specify they should utilize a dedicated circuit. Though in real life, low current draw devices on the same circuit should not be an issue, as long as the total draw doesn’t exceed 15A.

 

[Jim K]

What size breaker? Should be at least a 15A, right? The charger shouldn't draw more than 80% or 12A.

That's why I was surprised. It is a 15a breaker. I was just thinking this morning I should plug the charger through my "kill-a-watt" and see what it draws. The one for the new car is still sealed though as we have a 240v charger in the garage. It's very possible (likely even) there are multiple hangars on one circuit and a neighbor or two had a Tanis running. It's also very possible the wiring in that old building is just super sketchy. It worked for about 5 min, so it could just be an old breaker.

A full charge in the van is equivalent to about a gallon of gas, so it's really not worth expending a lot of effort.

 

[Larry in TN]

It's very possible (likely even) there are multiple hangars on one circuit and a neighbor or two had a Tanis running. It's also very possible the wiring in that old building is just super sketchy. It worked for about 5 min, so it could just be an old breaker.

That makes sense.

The car will have a continuous draw of 80% of the circuit's capacity so a weakness in the system could generate heat and a trip, especially if it's on a GFCI breaker. The Tesla UMC has internal GFCI protection so can run safely on an standard CB.

Rented a mountain cabin over Thanksgiving and tried charging on the outside outlet. It would trip the GFCI (wired downline of a bathroom GFCI receptacle), even when I backed off the charging current to 6A. I figured it was a weak GFCI receptacle or loose/corroded connections in the outdoor outlet.

Only other time I used Level 1 charging was just testing it at home both at 15A and 20A circuits (12A/16A draws). My house was built in 2002 so the wiring was still in good shape. That gave me ~4mph and ~7mph charging rates.

If that's a charging location I was going to use regularly, I'd check the connections at the receptacle(s) and, if it's tripping an old GFCI receptacle, spring for a new one. It would be worth the $20 or $30 in parts. If it's a shared load problem, might see if your car allows you to select a lower charging current.

 

[tspear]

End of January, my brothers and I went skiing in upstate Maine. Night low was below zero or close; daily high for a few days was single digits with a few days in the 20s.
When we got to the hotel, the only outlet/charging port available was the 110v circuit. It was kinda funny to watch, by night when the temp dropped, the charging rate would go to zero. During the day, the charging rate would fluctuate between zero and 5 MPH. Just shy of five days, he managed to add an additional 100 miles in range.
(The Tesla Y is my brother's third EV, first time he has ever used a 110v charger and wanted to watch and see how it handled it).

Tim

 

[charheep]

End of January, my brothers and I went skiing in upstate Maine. Night low was below zero or close; daily high for a few days was single digits with a few days in the 20s.
When we got to the hotel, the only outlet/charging port available was the 110v circuit. It was kinda funny to watch, by night when the temp dropped, the charging rate would go to zero. During the day, the charging rate would fluctuate between zero and 5 MPH. Just shy of five days, he managed to add an additional 100 miles in range.
(The Tesla Y is my brother's third EV, first time he has ever used a 110v charger and wanted to watch and see how it handled it).

Tim

The battery will warm itself up from time to time, so thats why you saw the charging rate bounce. In my garage when I was waiting for the 240 installation, on 110, I saw as consistent 3MPH charging. Which was exactly what I needed for my weekly commute.

 

[Larry in TN]

I bought ($35) the 5-20 adapter for the Tesla UMC. That allows you to charge faster (16A) on a 20A circuit. Many outlets in garages and commercial buildings are 20A. My testing at home showed ~50% increase in charging rate going from the included 5-15 (15A) to the 5-20 (20A) on my 20A outlet in my garage.

I figured it was worth the $35 to have it in my truck on trips where I might charge at 120v.