European GPS is down

[zaitcev]

Fortunately, American GPS still works.

Yeah, I know that "European GPS" is not correct, because their satellite navigation system has its own name, which is not a "GPS".

Anyway, just imagine if GPS went down for a week, with no resolution in sight. People would be brushing up on those NDB approaches. And it's interesting that such a gigantic failure is actually possible for a system that's supposed to replace GPS for European users. You'd expect Russian GLONASS fail so badly first, but nope, they didn't. Their constellation is not particularly healthy though. That pretty much leaves just GPS and Beidou as systems that haven't yet failed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...-by-unexplained-technical-issue/#3f54493e5833

 

[benyflyguy]

Fortunately, American GPS still works.

Yeah, I know that "European GPS" is not correct, because their satellite navigation system has its own name, which is not a "GPS".

Anyway, just imagine if GPS went down for a week, with no resolution in sight. People would be brushing up on those NDB approaches. And it's interesting that such a gigantic failure is actually possible for a system that's supposed to replace GPS for European users. You'd expect Russian GLONASS fail so badly first, but nope, they didn't. Their constellation is not particularly healthy though. That pretty much leaves just GPS and Beidou as systems that haven't yet failed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...-by-unexplained-technical-issue/#3f54493e5833

I will preface that I know nothing about European aviation, but do they use that Galileo system for aviation there or American ones? What are the majors using? I was always of the mindset that they used more radio based navaids over there.

 

[zaitcev]

I was always of the mindset that they used more radio based navaids over there.

They have a mandatory ADS-B, which cannot work without a satellite navigation system. Basically everyone uses the normal, American GPS. But I don't think they have monitoring stations that can provide data for WAAS.

 

[GRG55]

Fortunately, American GPS still works.

Yeah, I know that "European GPS" is not correct, because their satellite navigation system has its own name, which is not a "GPS".

Anyway, just imagine if GPS went down for a week, with no resolution in sight. People would be brushing up on those NDB approaches. And it's interesting that such a gigantic failure is actually possible for a system that's supposed to replace GPS for European users. You'd expect Russian GLONASS fail so badly first, but nope, they didn't. Their constellation is not particularly healthy though. That pretty much leaves just GPS and Beidou as systems that haven't yet failed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...-by-unexplained-technical-issue/#3f54493e5833

It's not supposed to "replace" GPS. Galileo (the name of the European GNSS system) is another Global Navigation Satellite System. The constellation of Galileo satellites won't be complete until 2020.

The Chinese BeiDou full scale GNSS system is also still under construction, and also due to be completed in 2020.

The unique thing about Galileo is it is the only one of the four GNSS systems under civilian control.

I will preface that I know nothing about European aviation, but do they use that Galileo system for aviation there or American ones? What are the majors using? I was always of the mindset that they used more radio based navaids over there.

Most GA GPS gear is American made and thus US GNSS (ie GPS) dependent, even if it is installed in a European located airplane. Besides, at this point the Galileo constellation is not complete.
I used to use a $99.00 Garmin GPS device called a GLO (bluetoothed to run Foreflight on a non-cell iPad). It was capable of receiving both the US GPS and the Russian GLONASS GNSS signals. I don't think my panel mount Garmins can receive anything other than GPS, however.

I believe the primary long distance navigation in commercial airliners is INS; they don't depend on any GNSS system for primary.

 

[Sluggo63]

I believe the primary long distance navigation in commercial airliners is INS; they don't depend on any GNSS system for primary.

Most large commercial aircraft will use an FMC which typically takes inputs from the INSes (usually 3), GPSes (usually 2 or 3) and Radio NAVAIDs to determine the aircraft’s position.

 

[N884]

I have questions...

Aren’t vortac’s/vor’s being decommissioned little by little?

And, is this the same gps that our phones use? For instance, I’m in the UK late August and would rely on my phone to navigate while driving. Are folks rushing out to buy old school maps? Or do phones have a plan B? As I think out loud... if no plan B, does this suggest Uber grinds to a halt?

 

[wayne]

I have questions...

Aren’t vortac’s/vor’s being decommissioned little by little?

And, is this the same gps that our phones use? For instance, I’m in the UK late August and would rely on my phone to navigate while driving. Are folks rushing out to buy old school maps? Or do phones have a plan B? As I think out loud... if no plan B, does this suggest Uber grinds to a halt?

Most phones use the US's GPS. Some systems use multiple systems. It's only a problem right now if your phone, or other system, only uses Galileo.

 

[Doug F]

What happens if GPS goes down? Quite a lot.

 

[Parad0x177]

Most phones use the US's GPS. Some systems use multiple systems.

Partly true, but maybe not completely accurate. I'd say it is true that many, probably most, maybe all, of the popular cell phone models today will "prefer" the US GPS system, if it is available.

However, all of the major (and, probably, most of the "lesser") cell manufacturers use receivers that are compatible with pretty much any of the GNSS systems. For instance, all of Apple's current (and "recent" for as far back as I can recall) models have supported GPS, GLONASS, Galileo, and QZSS (or whatever subset of those was functional at the phone's time of design/manufacture). The same is true for Samsung and any of the other big Android-based phones. Basically, it would be harder (at this point) to find embedded GNSS receivers that did NOT support all of the constellations than it is to find one that supports them all.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

For all these other GPS systems, I assume they will need their own hardware? You won’t be able to select US, Euro, or China systems on your device? Phones are 1 thing...but avionics navigation systems, I assume that would require some serious certification work.


Tom

 

[zaitcev]

A good enough SDR receiver does it all in software anyway. It cannot receive signals that are too far away from a center frequency, but otherwise it's completely flexible. So, a phone chipset with 3 identical SDR blocks on its ASIC can receive GPS, GLONASS, and Galileo simultaneously. Heck, all 3 are probably fed from the same antenna.

In aviation, unless you're flying an Experimental, a question of certification complicates the issue somewhat. Or maybe significantly. But from the standpoint of technology it's just the question of hiring some engineers, even fairly junior ones. Boeing did just that... oh, wait.

 

[Parad0x177]

For all these other GPS systems, I assume they will need their own hardware? You won’t be able to select US, Euro, or China systems on your device? Phones are 1 thing...but avionics navigation systems, I assume that would require some serious certification work.


Tom

They don't necessarily need their own hardware. As indicated above, it is entirely possible for one integrated receiver to support multiple constellations. And, in fact, at least one relevant example one already does: Garmin has it's GLO and GLO 2 receivers that support both GPS and GLONASS. Those products also provide an example of how using multiple constellations simultaneously can improve the time it takes to achieve an initial fix, as well as overall accuracy. In fact, tracking position with more than one constellation simultaneously could make our navigation systems safer and more robust by providing more graceful degradation and the possibility of detecting and accounting for, say, GPS interference from a nearby military exercise or test.

That said, certification is an entirely separate matter that has little relation to actual technology or that technology's effectiveness. Certification always has and always will be precisely as onerous as the relevant regulating body or bodies deems it to be.

 

[Zeldman]

So I guess there will be some folks in the US saying we need to be more like Europe and shut down the US GPS system.....

 

[N1120A]

I will preface that I know nothing about European aviation, but do they use that Galileo system for aviation there or American ones? What are the majors using? I was always of the mindset that they used more radio based navaids over there.

They use the US GPS system, in general.

They have a mandatory ADS-B, which cannot work without a satellite navigation system. Basically everyone uses the normal, American GPS. But I don't think they have monitoring stations that can provide data for WAAS.

There are apparently a few LPV approaches in Europe, but I'm not sure how they work without WAAS stations.

 

[jrcox19]

There are apparently a few LPV approaches in Europe, but I'm not sure how they work without WAAS stations.

EGNOS. It's SBAS for Europe. There's a couple of SBAS sources around the world that are used for LPV depending on your FMS or navigation equipment

 

[olasek]

but do they use that Galileo system for aviation there or American ones?

From what I know all modern FMS installed in your typical Boeing or Airbus can use both Galileo and GPS (they don't use the Russian version however).
So what is "used" at the moment by such FMS is totally hidden to a pilot - the algorithm picks the best navigation source at the moment, it could even be a VOR-DME.

 

[jrcox19]

From what I know all modern FMS installed in your typical Boeing or Airbus can use both Galileo and GPS (they don't use the Russian version however).
So what is "used" at the moment by such FMS is totally hidden to a pilot - the algorithm picks the best navigation source at the moment, it could even be a VOR-DME.

In general, they almost exclusively use GPS.

There are some sensors that use both, but I wouldn't say "all modern" can use Galileo