Ethics of straw buying...

Ethan2002

Ethan2002

Filing Flight Plan
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Ethan
I am curious as to the opinions of people here regarding straw purchases.

In many cases the contracts for large ticket items ... houses ... yachts ... airplanes ... are assignable. Is there an ethical issue with concealing the identity of the purchaser?

Intending to legally use the item being purchased for the purpose for which it is being sold, although not by the party negotiating its purchase. (And not to gain leverage to change or alter any laws or zoning ordinances once the item is acquired.)

Using the industry standard contract and terms. Cash transaction, no lenders or parties beyond a friend who puts up the earnest money and then once accepted assigns the contract to the actual purchaser.

IE: it's your childhood home or an airplane once owned by your father and this information could be used by a seller to inflate the selling price.
 
I see no ethical or moral conflict in the context you state. Serving your best interest without adversely affecting the interest of others is reasonable.
 
That’s called brokering an aircraft as a buyers agent. . Entire businesses are made around that.
 
Absolutely no problem with it. Your job is to get the best price you can. If you won’t wind up in jail or on the losing end of a lawsuit, go for it.
 
I'm not in those circles, but my understanding is that famous or wealthy people do it all the time, to avoid someone jacking up the price because they believe the person will pay more. As long as whatever it is is legal, I don't see any issue. (Or in other words, purchasing for someone who for whatever reason isn't permitted to purchase it themselves.) As others have said, just don't get stuck holding the bag, if you buy something and then the actual buyer doesn't want it...I'd make sure they were contractually required to purchase it from you, and hold you harmless for any damage or problems, unless it was someone I trusted with my life savings.
 
Straw purchases on firearms and destructive devices are the only ones that are illegal or unethical.
 
Craig said:
Straw purchases on firearms and destructive devices are the only ones that are illegal or unethical.
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BATFE defines straw buying more narrowly ... it is purchasing an item for someone who is not legally allowed to purchase themselves (unless you are a government agency and giving the guns to Mexican drug cartel members, then it's policy ...)

PS cool avitar, growing up Mitchell 44-30733 was a well known position marker at the south end of Runway 2 at FAI ... but about 10 years ago a museum group rescued it from its sandbar in the middle of the Tanana River.
 
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Craig said:
Straw purchases on firearms and destructive devices are the only ones that are illegal or unethical.
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It's legal to buy a gun and immediately sell it to someone else, even if they wouldn't pass a fed background check, but only if you didn't agree to the subsequent sale of the gun before your original purchase. Literally no difference as far as the final result goes. So illegal, but NOT unethical IMO.

A buyers identity should not be relevant to a transaction in a free society.
 
Ethan2002 said:
PS cool avitar, growing up Mitchell 44-30733 was a well known position marker at the south end of Runway 2 at FAI ... but about 10 years ago a museum group rescued it from its sandbar in the middle of the Tanana River.
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Ethan: Only problem is the photo is of a Fairchild AT-21....I'm restoring the only one known to still exist, 42-48053. :)
 
Sigh. I thought someone had found a potentially scandalous way to get around paying exorbitant retail prices for wheat straw to put around my tomato plants this summer. Dang.
 
Ethan2002 said:
I am curious as to the opinions of people here regarding straw purchases.

In many cases the contracts for large ticket items ... houses ... yachts ... airplanes ... are assignable. Is there an ethical issue with concealing the identity of the purchaser?

Intending to legally use the item being purchased for the purpose for which it is being sold, although not by the party negotiating its purchase. (And not to gain leverage to change or alter any laws or zoning ordinances once the item is acquired.)

Using the industry standard contract and terms. Cash transaction, no lenders or parties beyond a friend who puts up the earnest money and then once accepted assigns the contract to the actual purchaser.

IE: it's your childhood home or an airplane once owned by your father and this information could be used by a seller to inflate the selling price.
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Ain’t nuthin wrong with it. This is a no brainer…

 
Salty said:
It's legal to buy a gun and immediately sell it to someone else, even if they wouldn't pass a fed background check, but only if you didn't agree to the subsequent sale of the gun before your original purchase. Literally no difference as far as the final result goes. So illegal, but NOT unethical IMO.

A buyers identity should not be relevant to a transaction in a free society.
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IMHO, that’s backwards, in some states you may immediately sell a firearm to someone who hasn’t passed a background. But I believe it to be unethical to sell to someone you believe could not legally purchase one.

Same as any other straw purchase, ethics may come into play when said straw purchase is done with intent to cause harm to others or society at large.
 
As long as the party you're fronting for is a US national, can't see anything wrong with it. Someone who has an issue is likely to be someone who is going to illegally discriminate against the actual buyer. Someone who is not a citizen, permanent resident, or a trust/corporation with US control, is another story.
 
Salty said:
It's legal to buy a gun and immediately sell it to someone else, even if they wouldn't pass a fed background check, but only if you didn't agree to the subsequent sale of the gun before your original purchase. Literally no difference as far as the final result goes. So illegal, but NOT unethical IMO.

A buyers identity should not be relevant to a transaction in a free society.
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CAREFUL

There are state laws too. In WA, even private transfers now require a background check and there are additional points of pain for sellers. Most people I know now just have the gun shop consignment sale it for them to limit their exposure.
 
MIFlyer said:
CAREFUL

There are state laws too. In WA, even private transfers now require a background check and there are additional points of pain for sellers. Most people I know now just have the gun shop consignment sale it for them to limit their exposure.
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NJ is one of the many states requiring a background check and using an FFL to do the transfer. Adds about $80 to the cost. Consignment sales are a nightmare for handgun sales, so you don't see too many of them here. To buy a handgun in the first place you need a firearms owner ID card (one time, but it has to be done over if you move). Maybe another $100+, and two to six months to process. Then you need a permit to purchase a handgun, another $100+ and two to six months to process...but if you turn the handgun over to a dealer for a consignment sale, and it doesn't sell, to take it back you need a NEW permit to purchase, another $100+ and two to six months.
 
flyingron said:
As long as the party you're fronting for is a US national, can't see anything wrong with it. Someone who has an issue is likely to be someone who is going to illegally discriminate against the actual buyer. Someone who is not a citizen, permanent resident, or a trust/corporation with US control, is another story.
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Why?
 
Ethan2002 said:
BATFE defines straw buying more narrowly ... it is purchasing an item for someone who is not legally allowed to purchase themselves (unless you are a government agency and giving the guns to Mexican drug cartel members, then it's policy ...)
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Nope. They define it as buying for someone else.

See the case where they convicted both people where the nephew bought a Glock for his until at a special discount, even though the uncle was legally able to buy, but not at that price. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

What is the ATF definition of straw purchase?

Purchasing a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one, or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction, is a “straw purchase,” a Federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000.
 
Craig said:
Ethan: Only problem is the photo is of a Fairchild AT-21....I'm restoring the only one known to still exist, 42-48053. :)
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Oops! I failed the IFF test ... well it is "one of ours..."
 
Here is the Cliff's Notes Version:

Years ago Doctor Brown decided to sell his A36 Bonanza and buy a Citabria. His kids Charlie and Sally loved the airplane they went on family vacations in. But at the time both were in college -- not a good position to buy an airplane or to even to maintain it ...

Fast forward several years and the "new" owner calls Charlie Brown and offers the plane for sale at 10% more than the highest priced G36 on the market. He calls it "a special family discount."

Chuck declines but mentions it to Sally, who keeps an eye on Trade-A-Plane, a month later the A36 is listed at a laughably inflated price.

The listing expires and a few months later its listed at a reasonable price.

Sally gets a friend whose last name is not Brown to look at the airplane, make sure it hasn't been trashed, and make sure all the paperwork is shipshape. She wants that particular airplane ... but at what the market prices it at ... not at an inflated cost because the seller knows that she is Doctor Brown's daughter.
 
luvflyin said:
So what your saying is, if @eman1200 called you and said I need a gun, but I'm on the red flag list because my last date said I was a whacko and she's scared of me, so you buy it and then I'll reimburse you, you'd do it
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How else am I going to buy myself a gun?
 
wilkersk said:
IMHO, that’s backwards, in some states you may immediately sell a firearm to someone who hasn’t passed a background. But I believe it to be unethical to sell to someone you believe could not legally purchase one.

Same as any other straw purchase, ethics may come into play when said straw purchase is done with intent to cause harm to others or society at large.
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If you are a star on the Alabama basketball team any and all gun transactions are ok
 
Randomskylane said:
If you are a star on the Alabama basketball team any and all gun transactions are ok
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Whoopie Goldberg as the judge in Rocky and Bullwinkle: "And you, Mr. District Attorney, I'd like to point something out to you in the penal code: Section C, Paragraph 22: 'Celebrities are above the law.' This case is dismissed."
 
Hang 4 said:
In that scenario, it's the seller, not the buyer, who is being unethical.
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Sounds more like the buyer thinks the seller may become unethical, by the buyers definition of unethical. Buyer preemptively saved the seller from becoming unethical by not letting him know who really wanted the plane.
 
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wilkersk said:
IMHO, that’s backwards, in some states you may immediately sell a firearm to someone who hasn’t passed a background. But I believe it to be unethical ILLEGAL to sell to someone you believe could not legally purchase one.

Same as any other straw purchase, ethics may come into play when said straw purchase is done with intent to cause harm to others or society at large.
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If you purchase and sell immediately, that is not a straw purchase. If you purchase because your friend said buy it for me, then it is a straw purchase and illegal.

Federal law says you cannot sell to someone you know or suspect to be prohibited.

And in a number of states, Maryland being one, any sales must go through an FFL with a NICS check or more.
 
The first question on the NICS form is "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed?" It's the only one you must answer YES. The other questions are things you answer no to (are you a felon, etc...). People get hung up on that all the time because they don't read and assume that NO is the correct answer to all of them.
 
Ethan2002 said:
IE: it's your childhood home or an airplane once owned by your father and this information could be used by a seller to inflate the selling price.
Click to expand...

Getting away from the gun scenario and back to the original scenario. I don't see anything wrong with it unless the buyer grossly misrepresented himself to get you to sell it. Example would be that owner of an airplane doesn't want to sell it, but broker puts on a persona that he needs it to give orphan children airplane rides to get them out of their depressions.

A real life example happened to my friend. He had a commercial property that shared a property line with a bank. He owned his land first and when bank bought and built next door, they fought over right of ways. The bank made several offers to buy him out, but he was so angry & swore he would never sell to them, at any price. One day, a man knocked on his door and asked to buy the land. He laid out all the altruistic plans he was going to use the land for, so my friend agreed to sell it to him. Turned out he was an agent for the bank.
 
Pinecone said:
If you purchase and sell immediately, that is not a straw purchase. If you purchase because your friend said buy it for me, then it is a straw purchase and illegal.

Federal law says you cannot sell to someone you know or suspect to be prohibited.

And in a number of states, Maryland being one, any sales must go through an FFL with a NICS check or more.
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Never said it was a "straw purchase". And, I'm aware of varying state laws on private gun sales. However, the ethics issue remains the same.
 
wilkersk said:
IMHO, that’s backwards, in some states you may immediately sell a firearm to someone who hasn’t passed a background. But I believe it to be unethical to sell to someone you believe could not legally purchase one.

Same as any other straw purchase, ethics may come into play when said straw purchase is done with intent to cause harm to others or society at large.
Click to expand...

In most states it actually is illegal to sell a gun privately to someone you know to be legally ineligible. Sellers are expected to exercise good faith due diligence to insure that the sale is not happening with someone not legally allowed to possess the firearm.
 
Lawson_Stone said:
In most states it actually is illegal to sell a gun privately to someone you know to be legally ineligible. Sellers are expected to exercise good faith due diligence to insure that the sale is not happening with someone not legally allowed to possess the firearm.
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wilkersk said:
... in some states you may immediately sell a firearm to someone who hasn’t passed a background. B/QUOTE] ibid.
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