Ethanol Free MOGAS

dmccormack

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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May 11, 2007
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Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
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Display name:
Dan Mc
I've searched and searched...

How do I find which gas stations/ chains sell mogas without Ethanol?

(and yes, the airplane has the autogas STC...)
 
Dan,

A quick google search indicated that PA law requires that all ethanolized gas be clearly labelled. I'm not sure if PA law requires ethanol to be utilized like MO does. So, look around find pumps that aren't labelled and test the gas to make sure.

Missouri only requires ethanol in regular. Premium can still be the good stuff. Some put ethanol in premium, some don't. I recently moved across the state and had to find new sources for non-ethanolized gas. I did this by calling the distributors. I found a few stations through them and then went to those stations and tested the gas.
 
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timwinters said:
Dan,

A quick google search indicated that PA law requires that all ethanolized gas be clearly labelled. I'm not sure if PA law requires ethanol to be utilized like MO does. So, look around find pumps that aren't labelled and test the gas to make sure.

Missouri only requires ethanol in regular. Premium can still be the good stuff. Some put ethanol in premium, some don't. I recently moved across the state and had to find new sources for non-ethanolized gas. I did this by calling the distributors. I found a few stations through them and then went to those stations and tested the gas.
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Thanks, Tim for the good info -- I don't remember filling up at a single station in recent memory where there wasn't the 10% Ethanol lable. I'm sure they are out there, I guess it will take some detective work.

(I'm surprised there's not a site dedicated to listing such station given how many different engines run beter or legally on ethanol-free gasoline).

:dunno:

Maybe another web project for our resident code-machines?

:D
 
testing is the only way to be sure. Regular sometimes doesn't have ethanol. A dollar bottle of drinking water drained to 1 inch, filled the rest of the way with gas, shook up, and checked for level change in a couple minutes is all you need to do to be sure. Doesn't matter what anybody tells you, testing is more reliable and is much faster then trying to get information from people.
 
wby0nder said:
testing is the only way to be sure. Regular sometimes doesn't have ethanol. A dollar bottle of drinking water drained to 1 inch, filled the rest of the way with gas, shook up, and checked for level change in a couple minutes is all you need to do to be sure. Doesn't matter what anybody tells you, testing is more reliable and is much faster then trying to get information from people.
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Matt,

Ethanol content and requirements vary significantly from state to state. Thus saying "regular sometimes doesn't have ethanol" may very well be true in IA but false in PA. I know it's false in MO becuase ethanol is required in regular here and only in regular.

Testing must be done to ensure you're getting ethanol free gas and it is indeed the only sure way to determine ethanol content but one must first do the proper reseach to determine where to begin testing in the first place. This research can only be performed by talking to the supply chain or those familiar with it in your specific area. Going station to station and testing without first obtaining all the pertinent info on state laws and distribution philosophies would be a great way to waste a lot of time.
 
there i go being all geocentric again. bad dog
 
Refineries do not make or add alcohol in any form to the gas they deliver to the distributator. The distributator adds what the state /customer requires.

Your airport can buy directly from the refinery and have it shipped by truck and sell it as off road fuel. with no state road tax added.
 
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The water test works just fine...but we've been down that road already.
 
timwinters said:
The water test works just fine...but we've been down that road already.
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I know...but I'm trying to be a bit more polite about it when I disagree with our local "experts" than I have in the past. Sometimes they mean one thing instead of another and a question can save a page of nonsense discussion.

If he means "The only test I consider convenient", I might not agree, but the dye is probably convenient to him.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Care to expand on this a bit more?

Why doesn't the water test work?
Click to expand...

Tiny amounts of Alcohol are too dificult to see with the water test..

I see color really well.
 
Tom-D said:
Tiny amounts of Alcohol are too dificult to see with the water test..

I see color really well.
Click to expand...

Actually, I looked again at the link you provided more closely. The main item for sale is simply the water test with a blue dye tossed in the water during the test. That's good to about 2% alcohol, most of the error is reading the miniscus. I already have a fuel tester and a grease pencil and I can read the change in level pretty well, so no need to buy this IMO since we all have fuel testers.

A minor product on the page is the Quik Check Solution (free with the water test kit), which appears to be a dye solution that goes into solution. The test doesn't state what level of alcohol allows dissolution of the mixture but I wouldn't be surprised if it were on the order of 1-2%, similar to the water test.

It really comes down to what is convenient for a person- both will work and give similar results for the concentration of alcohols that concern us.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Actually, I looked again at the link you provided more closely. The main item for sale is simply the water test with a blue dye tossed in the water during the test. That's good to about 2% alcohol, most of the error is reading the miniscus. I already have a fuel tester and a grease pencil and I can read the change in level pretty well, so no need to buy this IMO since we all have fuel testers.

A minor product on the page is the Quik Check Solution (free with the water test kit), which appears to be a dye solution that goes into solution. The test doesn't state what level of alcohol allows dissolution of the mixture but I wouldn't be surprised if it were on the order of 1-2%, similar to the water test.

It really comes down to what is convenient for a person- both will work and give similar results for the concentration of alcohols that concern us.
Click to expand...

You must have a container, a grease pencel, and must place the fuel in the container and add water, wait until the mixture seperates, to read the results.

With this test you add dye to the sample taken from the sump, and look.

Quicker, easier to read, and no added equipment. Plus the ability to find ANY alcohol = "works for me"

If you don't need the instructions or the other stuff in the kit, buy this. "QCS 15ml = 450 drops of solution
Only $ 6.95""
 
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Tom-D said:
You must have a container, a grease pencel, and must place the fuel in the container and add water, wait until the mixture seperates, to read the results.

With this test you add dye to the sample taken from the sump, and look.

Quicker, easier to read, and no added equipment. Plus the ability to find ANY alcohol = "works for me"
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It won't find "any" alcohol...but will find whatever we care about.
If you want a lower detection limit, use a GC-MS and it will detect down to the parts-per-million level...but even that won't find "any" alcohol if the concentration is lower than the instrument's detection level.

The dye probably can't detect less than 1-2%, same as the water method. Below 1-2% there isn't enough alcohol to hold the dye in solution.

If you're happy with it...it's fine. The dye test costs $6->$15 (when S&H are included). I don't know when I last bought a grease pencil- they last forever. I grant it is easy to use, although taking the sample from the sump is a little late. The fuel should be tested before going into the tank.

Actually, I'm just taking exception that you claim the dye test is "the only one that works" when I think you really mean it's the only one you trust and are happy with.
 
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I played around with this today while waiting for something to get done...

Experimental:
FD&C Blue #1 was dissolved in the test solvent (to more easily see the drop). A drop of the test solvent was added to 100 mL hexanes (essentially avgas without the TEL).
Dry ethanol was added 0.5 mL at a time with stirring; the point at which the dye solution dissolved was recorded.

Results:
Water- Hexanes turned slightly blue at 8% ethanol, completely dissolved at 10%

Acetonitrile- drop dissolved at 4% ethanol

Methanol- drop dissolved at 5% ethanol

I'm willing to try other solvents since I note that the solvent used to carry the dye isn't listed on the web site.

Pictures of drop at bottom of flask, and drop dissolved.
 

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Ha ha, you have to use the expensive airplane gas like the rest of us!!! :lol:

:D Neener neener!!!:D
 
As has been mentioned before... Gas does not come from the refinery with alcohol in it.. The gas is delivered to local fuel depots - often by pipeline or barge... There is one in your area... At the fuel depot, when the truck is loaded with gas the alcohol is blended in along with specific additives per Brand, dyes, etc..
If you get a trailer with a DOT approved tank on it you can go to the depot and buy the gas without the alcohol... Two owners at my field do that...

denny-o
 
Tom-D said:
Refineries do not make or add alcohol in any form to the gas they deliver to the distributator. The distributator adds what the state /customer requires.
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They do here on request from the distributor.
 
I'll bet that ethylene glycol with methyl violet as the coloring agent will give you results quite close to the "quik-test" kit.

Tim

Cap'n Jack said:
I played around with this today while waiting for something to get done...

Experimental:
FD&C Blue #1 was dissolved in the test solvent (to more easily see the drop). A drop of the test solvent was added to 100 mL hexanes (essentially avgas without the TEL).
Dry ethanol was added 0.5 mL at a time with stirring; the point at which the dye solution dissolved was recorded.

Results:
Water- Hexanes turned slightly blue at 8% ethanol, completely dissolved at 10%

Acetonitrile- drop dissolved at 4% ethanol

Methanol- drop dissolved at 5% ethanol

I'm willing to try other solvents since I note that the solvent used to carry the dye isn't listed on the web site.

Pictures of drop at bottom of flask, and drop dissolved.
Click to expand...
 
Troska said:
I'll bet that ethylene glycol with methyl violet as the coloring agent will give you results quite close to the "quik-test" kit.

Tim
Click to expand...

Tim- Just ran the test...ethylene glycol is similar to other solvents. A slight hint of blue at 4% ethanol, but the drop didn't fully dissolve until 10% ethanol. Acetonitrile is still the best solvent for this test.

This makes sense since ethylene glycol has a number of polar hydroxyl groups that would tend to delay dissolution of the drop.

Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Tim- Just ran the test...ethylene glycol is similar to other solvents. A slight hint of blue at 4% ethanol, but the drop didn't fully dissolve until 10% ethanol. Acetonitrile is still the best solvent for this test.

This makes sense since ethylene glycol has a number of polar hydroxyl groups that would tend to delay dissolution of the drop.

Thanks for the suggestion.
Click to expand...


Translate, please, for we non-chem-engs?

:smile:
 
This will be slightly simplistic, but truthful...
Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons with containing only carbon and hydrogen. The carcons link to each other to form a chain. The hydrogens are attached to this chain. These compound have weak "dipoles" because the electrons are distributed evenly through the molecule. Mineral oil has a similar structure, just longer carbon chans and more hydrogens.

Ethanol contains two atoms of carbon and one of oxygen in a chain. Hydrogens are attached to the carbons and oxygen. The oxygen pulls electron density to itself giving the molecule polar ends, with the oxygen being negative. With two carbons in the molecule, the dipole formed is weak enought to allow ethanol to dissolve in the gasoline.

The "quik test" contains a liquid that is normally immiscible with the gasoline- most of these liquids are polar- they possess slightly positive and negative ends, but the poles are stronger than ethanol. The liquid contains a dye that makes it easier to see whether the drop has dissolved.

If the gasoline contains ethanol, the drop is able to interact with the ethanol and dissolve, the dye dissolves with the drop so the fuel containing ethanol becomes colored.

Ethylene glycol contains two carbons bonded to each other as well as on oxygen on each carbon. The oxygen is in turn bonded to a hydrogen. The "OH" is called a hydroxy group. Ethylene glycol has two of them...and they are polar so they don't interact much with the non-polar hydrocarbon. The old "oil and water don't mix" thing.

There needs to be a certain amount of ethanol in the gasoline to dissolve the polar solvent..and that minimum so far seems to be 4%.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
This will be slightly simplistic, but truthful...
Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons with containing only carbon and hydrogen. The carcons link to each other to form a chain. The hydrogens are attached to this chain. These compound have weak "dipoles" because the electrons are distributed evenly through the molecule. Mineral oil has a similar structure, just longer carbon chans and more hydrogens.

Ethanol contains two atoms of carbon and one of oxygen in a chain. Hydrogens are attached to the carbons and oxygen. The oxygen pulls electron density to itself giving the molecule polar ends, with the oxygen being negative. With two carbons in the molecule, the dipole formed is weak enought to allow ethanol to dissolve in the gasoline.

The "quik test" contains a liquid that is normally immiscible with the gasoline- most of these liquids are polar- they possess slightly positive and negative ends, but the poles are stronger than ethanol. The liquid contains a dye that makes it easier to see whether the drop has dissolved.

If the gasoline contains ethanol, the drop is able to interact with the ethanol and dissolve, the dye dissolves with the drop so the fuel containing ethanol becomes colored.

Ethylene glycol contains two carbons bonded to each other as well as on oxygen on each carbon. The oxygen is in turn bonded to a hydrogen. The "OH" is called a hydroxy group. Ethylene glycol has two of them...and they are polar so they don't interact much with the non-polar hydrocarbon. The old "oil and water don't mix" thing.

There needs to be a certain amount of ethanol in the gasoline to dissolve the polar solvent..and that minimum so far seems to be 4%.
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Excellent explanation (though eerily reminiscent of my excellent High School Chemistry teacher 30 years ago :eek:)

Therefore an adequate test for the presence of ethanol in mogas would be to place ___ drops of ___ into a glass container and wait ___ for the presence or lack of _____?
 
Dan-

You can put 1 drop of methanol containing a little food coloring in a container of Mogas and see if the drop dissolves (the food coloring disperses into the gasoline). If it does- there's at least 5% ethanol. If the drop doesn't dissolve, there's less than 5% ethanol (maybe 0%). Methanol chosen since this can be bought at you local hardware/Menards/Home Depot/Lowes store and it is as sensitive as anything else tested.

Or you can place a little water in your cylindrical fuel tester, mark the top of the water with a grease pencil, add gasoline, and see if the top of the water moved.

Both tests have about the same sensitivity to ethanol, the choice is really what one is more comfortable using.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Dan-

You can put 1 drop of methanol containing a little food coloring in a container of Mogas and see if the drop dissolves (the food coloring disperses into the gasoline). If it does- there's at least 5% ethanol. If the drop doesn't dissolve, there's less than 5% ethanol (maybe 0%). Methanol chosen since this can be bought at you local hardware/Menards/Home Depot/Lowes store and it is as sensitive as anything else tested.

Or you can place a little water in your cylindrical fuel tester, mark the top of the water with a grease pencil, add gasoline, and see if the top of the water moved.

Both tests have about the same sensitivity to ethanol, the choice is really what one is more comfortable using.
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Excellent! Thank you!

And... ignore my post about North Platte. I'm sure some parts of Nebraska are nice.

(I haven't been there yet, but I'm looking forward to it! :D)
 
dmccormack said:
Excellent! Thank you!

And... ignore my post about North Platte. I'm sure some parts of Nebraska are nice.

(I haven't been there yet, but I'm looking forward to it! :D)
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You're welcome. As for North Platte...well I'm from the east coast, so what people write doesn't bother me. You can even dis the Huskers in front of me. Over 3 years out here and I haven't seen a single tornado yet. Strong thunderstorms, yes, but no tornadoes.:smile:
 
I have a friend of mine that owns a gas station.
He spends a little extra to buy ethanol free mogas.
As the earlier post said check with the distributors, they will tell you the retailers that have the stuff you want.
Still good to do the test as people sometimes make mistakes and may mix them in the storage tanks at the station.

You can fly that chief to 6Y9 , the Sidnaw Mini mart has ethanol free mogas.:D Just ask Tony C , he's filled up there before.
 
el con said:
I have a friend of mine that owns a gas station.
He spends a little extra to buy ethanol free mogas.
As the earlier post said check with the distributors, they will tell you the retailers that have the stuff you want.
Still good to do the test as people sometimes make mistakes and may mix them in the storage tanks at the station.

You can fly that chief to 6Y9 , the Sidnaw Mini mart has ethanol free mogas.:D Just ask Tony C , he's filled up there before.
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OK.. that will take me about -- oh -- 11 hours. :D
 
My cousin flew his Champ up from Detroit area, took him 5 1/2 hrs or so, slow but also needed a couple of stops for fuel.
Once he got there he had a blast flying low and slow, spotted some bears from the air, took some kids up for rides.
He's just about ready to finish his Bearhawk, Anybody interested in a Champ??

I know 11 hrs is a long time , but what an adventure!
 
el con said:
My cousin flew his Champ up from Detroit area, took him 5 1/2 hrs or so, slow but also needed a couple of stops for fuel.
Once he got there he had a blast flying low and slow, spotted some bears from the air, took some kids up for rides.
He's just about ready to finish his Bearhawk, Anybody interested in a Champ??

I know 11 hrs is a long time , but what an adventure!
Click to expand...

Actually, my first long XC in the Chief will be KVVS to KPTD to give my dad some dual.

Given the wx, it will be sometime in the spring. :frown3:
 
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