EPA accuses Volkswagen, Audi of evading emission laws

Good! I will now consider a VW, and Audi.
 
:hairraise:

EPA regulators said that Volkswagen adopted a "sophisticated" algorithm that turned on vehicles' full emissions controls when it detected they were being tested for emissions performance.
 
when the software update for your cars comes out, don't dare do it. Your fuel economy will plummet.
 
Gerhardt said:
Because harmful emissions are a good thing?
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Your most efficient running is not your most emissions-friendly running. LOP puts out more emissions than peak or slightly ROP. The emissions regs force the engines in our cars today to be less efficient than they could be.

So, it depends on your priority. In Europe, they tend to focus more on fuel consumption, and allow a bit worse emissions if it means they can save fuel. Here it's the opposite. Burn more fuel! Just make it clean.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Your most efficient running is not your most emissions-friendly running. LOP puts out more emissions than peak or slightly ROP. The emissions regs force the engines in our cars today to be less efficient than they could be.

So, it depends on your priority. In Europe, they tend to focus more on fuel consumption, and allow a bit worse emissions if it means they can save fuel. Here it's the opposite. Burn more fuel! Just make it clean.
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Yeah. Stripping out emissions hardware/software for greater economy and/or performance has been big in the world of car mods for decades.

You'd be amazed at the kind of mileage those big diesel pickups can get when unburdened from their emissions restrictions....
 
You would be amazed what kinds of claims people make about that.

What they actually do is very much up for debate, and appears to have no relation at all to the claims.

If I had a dime for every schmuck who claimed mileage improvements from gutting a cat…

Keep in mind that most people who make claims like that use a broken vehicle as a "control." Of course rodding out a plugged cat is going to improve performance over doing nothing. Replacing the cat will work better.

The telltale is a claim of simultaneous power and mileage improvements. In reality, you get one or the other. Cars operate very close to 0.5 lb/hr/HP almost all the time.

You'll also find people that claim removing the tailgate off a pickup improves performance. It actually makes no difference. A closed tailgate makes the bed haul around a couple of extra pounds of air with it.
 
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MAKG1 said:
You'll also find people that claim removing the tailgate off a pickup improves performance. It actually makes no difference. A closed tailgate makes the bed haul around a couple of extra pounds of air with it.
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I spent some time working in one of the big auto company areo drag (as opposed to climate (but I worked in those too)) wind tunnels where they had done testing of pickups with tailgate up, tailgate off, mesh tailgate and a cap (not sure exactly what kind). Lowest drag was with some kind of cap, highest drag was the mesh tailgate thing that is sold to reduce drag. And, tailgate up was lower drag than tailgate off. (I didn't do the study, but I talked with the guy who did.)

A lot of time is spent shaping the top lip of the tailgate (and the curves around the cab, and the space between the cab and box) to minimize drag by controlling the creation of the wake vortex. If you look at most current pickups, you will see that they pretty much all have an undercut top edge on the tailgate to control the flow (at least to some extend).

But back to the original topic - this is nothing new. Someone is always looking for an edge. Deactivating emission controls could potentially get you a few percent improvement in fuel economy. Toyota was the best at getting around the OBD-II regulations and not turning on the light - that is part of the reason they had such a good reputation for "quality" and "reliability". But the A.R.B. just kept adding regulations to work around the work arounds.
 
And 'vettes and some other cars are programmed to skip-shift certain gears to increase fuel economy. I have heard some claim the shift points correspond to the EPA test protocols.
 
I'm pretty sure my tractor doesn't meet current emissions standards.
 
Here's a twist. In 1973-ish Lamborghini wanted desperately to import cars to CA. Well, they had onerous smog testing requirements, but Ferruccio figured out the way the test was done, and put a clutch on his air pump that shoots fresh air into the exhaust. The car would have the air pump running for the idle section, and the two high RPM sections just about 2800RPM. So, it would pass smog just fine. However, there was a RPM cutout on the air pump clutch so that when the engine went over 3200RPM, the clutch would release and the air pump pulley wasn't doing anything.

CA tried to get them banned, but he sued and won, and the cars were imported and passed smog as written. I'd have to read the actual law to see if they closed those loopholes. Prolly did after Lambo showed them how amateur they were.
 
JHW said:
when the software update for your cars comes out, don't dare do it. Your fuel economy will plummet.
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I'm sure that, in addition to the huge fine the government levies, there will be a class action suit asking for damages for the increased fuel cost related to the software change as well as the decreased resale value of the vehicles.
 
docmirror said:
air pump that shoots fresh air into the exhaust.
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Am I the only one that thought air pumps were a joke anyway? What do I know, but pretty sure all the emissions tests were percentage based, not total output based (lbs, Cu.Ft., whatever). So of course pumping fresh air into the exhaust stream lowers (dilutes) emissions. If I'm right, kudos to carmakers for figuring a simple solution to another stupid gummint rule.

And I love my little VW CC 2.0T. It hauls the mail just fine at 22-23mpg with a heavy foot.
 
One must wonder how Volkswagen thought they'd get away with this wothout it eventually being discovered.
 
MAKG1 said:
You would be amazed what kinds of claims people make about that.

What they actually do is very much up for debate, and appears to have no relation at all to the claims.

If I had a dime for every schmuck who claimed mileage improvements from gutting a cat…

Keep in mind that most people who make claims like that use a broken vehicle as a "control." Of course rodding out a plugged cat is going to improve performance over doing nothing. Replacing the cat will work better.

The telltale is a claim of simultaneous power and mileage improvements. In reality, you get one or the other. Cars operate very close to 0.5 lb/hr/HP almost all the time.

You'll also find people that claim removing the tailgate off a pickup improves performance. It actually makes no difference. A closed tailgate makes the bed haul around a couple of extra pounds of air with it.
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I stripped out a ram 3500 turbo back and instantly went from 16 ish to 22 mpg and the tranny will no longer hold the power if I romp on it. Tuner is a Smarty.


But keep claiming that if it makes you feel good whilst puttering along in your Prius.:rolleyes2:
 
Blatham489 said:
Am I the only one that thought air pumps were a joke anyway? What do I know, but pretty sure all the emissions tests were percentage based, not total output based (lbs, Cu.Ft., whatever). So of course pumping fresh air into the exhaust stream lowers (dilutes) emissions. If I'm right, kudos to carmakers for figuring a simple solution to another stupid gummint rule.
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Federal standards are in grams HC/CO/NOx per mile.

Adding air to the exhaust manifold helps unburned HC and CO to oxidize - even more so if there is a catalyst. But, the extra air is a problem for NOx, which is why air pumps aren't used any more.
 
Unit74 said:
I stripped out a ram 3500 turbo back and instantly went from 16 ish to 22 mpg and the tranny will no longer hold the power if I romp on it. Tuner is a Smarty.


But keep claiming that if it makes you feel good whilst puttering along in your Prius.:rolleyes2:
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You broke your transmission and claim that as evidence of better power? Are you truly serious?

EPA says that truck gets 25 MPG, so you rather obviously stripped out a broken exhaust.
 
My son purchased a used corvette a few months ago. Some idiot removed all smog or emission devices, even the cats. The car ran like crap. I told my son to get out all this stuff and helped him hook it all back up. EGR valve, smog pump and every little other piece. His gas millage went up by a few miles per gallon. We removed all error codes and they never returned. Idles great and runs even better. Before the idle was all over the place. Every once in a while the idle would go so high you had to shift into neutral to stop. Not now. The guy that owned it could not get it to run right or correct. My son got this vette for almost nothing.
 
timwinters said:
One must wonder how Volkswagen thought they'd get away with this wothout it eventually being discovered.
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Because plenty of other OEMs have and they probably have in other applications?
 
timwinters said:
One must wonder how Volkswagen thought they'd get away with this wothout it eventually being discovered.
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Maybe it happened like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVG1q49yPaY

watch
 
kkoran said:
I'm sure that, in addition to the huge fine the government levies, there will be a class action suit asking for damages for the increased fuel cost related to the software change as well as the decreased resale value of the vehicles.
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Yes. This is where the really big dollar numbers will be written.
 
I recall a major appliance mfr getting caught gaming the energy tests on a fridge. If I recall correctly, they turned off the the freezer seal heater when ambient was at the temp used for the test.
 
timwinters said:
One must wonder how Volkswagen thought they'd get away with this wothout it eventually being discovered.
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This... :eek::rolleyes2:

In German newspapers people comment that the US government is out to weaken the German / European economy... I guess companies are pretty good in getting themselves deeply in trouble as VW shows...

Martina
 
This would be the same EPA that spilled 6 million gallons of heavy metals in the river here, and then flew their boss out on a fuel guzzling G4 to stand in front of hundreds of cameramen (who all drove 3 MPG TV vans hundreds of miles), to say they'll "try to do better next time"?
 
MAKG1 said:
You broke your transmission and claim that as evidence of better power? Are you truly serious?

EPA says that truck gets 25 MPG, so you rather obviously stripped out a broken exhaust.
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Your reading skills are lacking.... And your assumptions are making you look just foolish. But if you want to keep pulling false claims out of your starfish surprise, please, go ahead. I could use the comedy relief.:rolleyes:
 
1600vw said:
My son purchased a used corvette a few months ago. Some idiot removed all smog or emission devices, even the cats. The car ran like crap. I told my son to get out all this stuff and helped him hook it all back up. EGR valve, smog pump and every little other piece. His gas millage went up by a few miles per gallon. We removed all error codes and they never returned. Idles great and runs even better. Before the idle was all over the place. Every once in a while the idle would go so high you had to shift into neutral to stop. Not now. The guy that owned it could not get it to run right or correct. My son got this vette for almost nothing.
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I feel your pain. I was in the same boat for a few years, fixing a lot of "broken" engines where idiots either blindly unbolted emissions equipment without reprogramming the ECM or got "smarter" and started plugging emissions control lines with anything they could find, especially in a way that cannot be easily seen. (ever seen a bolt stuck deep in a vacuum line?)

Remember, you can't fix stupid. Glad you got the Vette running.

After I rebuilt my engine (during which process I bored it out to higher displacement and updated a lot of internals), many idiots were denying my claims of increased performance and mileage, stating that you cannot have both. They could not comprehend my explanation of improved efficiency. :dunno: Gotta love arguing with dumb people. :D
 
Anyone with a TDI would be crazy to take it in for a recall flash of the new software. I'm betting it will kill mileage and make the car less driveable.
 
docmirror said:
Anyone with a TDI would be crazy to take it in for a recall flash of the new software. I'm betting it will kill mileage and make the car less driveable.
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I suspect you are correct. OTOH, VW will probably force the update if the car ever gets into their hand. Once they have the "fix"

Also, I see that the states that do emission testing(mine does), may also force it in some ways.

The owners may be in legal jeopardy after the fix is available to do it and pretty good legal case against VW.

Whatever it is, I expect you should be able to buy TDIs pretty cheap soon..
 
genna said:
I suspect you are correct. OTOH, VW will probably force the update if the car ever gets into their hand. Once they have the "fix"

Also, I see that the states that do emission testing(mine does), may also force it in some ways.

The owners may be in legal jeopardy after the fix is available to do it and pretty good legal case against VW.

Whatever it is, I expect you should be able to buy TDIs pretty cheap soon..
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You're prolly right, but I would go far out of my way to not get it done. Even if I had to get a PO box in a diff state/county and do the reg there. No way do I want my car at the dealer. I know what Ford did to the Fiesta and Focus auto trans after complaints and I would never let them touch it.
 
The way I see it is they can go by "fixing" it in 2 ways.. 1. Add urea system=$$$$$$$$ 2. let the engine run with the "defeat device" software always on = crappy performance/mpg.

my guess, #2 is what's going to happen. seems like a good idea to have a spare ECU with an old programming for normal use and let them fix another ECU... Get one on then cheap and then just swap the ECU around to avoid the "fix"
 
genna said:
The way I see it is they can go by "fixing" it in 2 ways.. 1. Add urea system=$$$$$$$$ 2. let the engine run with the "defeat device" software always on = crappy performance/mpg.

my guess, #2 is what's going to happen. seems like a good idea to have a spare ECU with an old programming for normal use and let them fix another ECU... Get one on then cheap and then just swap the ECU around to avoid the "fix"
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Strictly USA cars:

The Passat, model years accused, have a urea system.

The Jetta, model years accused, do not.
 
genna said:
I suspect you are correct. OTOH, VW will probably force the update if the car ever gets into their hand. Once they have the "fix"

Also, I see that the states that do emission testing(mine does), may also force it in some ways.

The owners may be in legal jeopardy after the fix is available to do it and pretty good legal case against VW.

Whatever it is, I expect you should be able to buy TDIs pretty cheap soon..
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Actually, I think the feds are forcing a recall.

I suspect that the price of used VW ECUs has taken a mighty leap upwards in the past few days.

Rich
 
docmirror said:
Anyone with a TDI would be crazy to take it in for a recall flash of the new software. I'm betting it will kill mileage and make the car less driveable.
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I bought one of the first 2015 TDI Jetta's to hit the log. No way I'm taking in it. I averaged 54MPG from Scranton PA to Savannah GA.
 
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