Envoy captain stricken after takeoff and passes

3393RP

3393RP

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3393RP
I received a text about 30 minutes ago from my airline captain nephew, saying the pilot of AA Flight 3556, an Embraer ERJ-175, experienced an inflight medical emergency and was "incapacitated" according to ATC communications. The flight's destination was CMH. It returned to origination point ORD about 35 minutes after takeoff, and in spite of "heroic measures" by those on the aircraft and first responders on the ground, the pilot has passed away.

I'm assuming that being a regional pilot, the captain was relatively young.

Godspeed to the pilot, and my condolences to his family and colleagues. The right seater was a training captain, I imagine it was a huge shock to him.
 
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3393RP said:
I'm assuming that being a regional pilot, the captain was relatively young.
him.
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In the current market, I wouldn’t assume that.

A lot of older GA pilots are going 121.

Regional pay is night and day better than it was 5 years ago.

Some regionals like PSA are hiring street Captains.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In the current market, I wouldn’t assume that.

A lot of older GA pilots are going 121.

Regional pay is night and day better than it was 5 years ago.

Some regionals like PSA are hiring street Captains.
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As is Envoy, which apparently the deceased was a DEC, at least according to what I've heard.
 
Fearless Tower said:
In the current market, I wouldn’t assume that.

A lot of older GA pilots are going 121.

Regional pay is night and day better than it was 5 years ago.

Some regionals like PSA are hiring street Captains.
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I considered that, because I know the long time model for a regionals as a stepping stone has changed. I also gave thought to the idea that a younger pilot would be more unlikely to experience a fatal medical event. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement by recognizing the changing demographics. But the fact remains pilots flying regionals are mostly younger individuals.
 
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The tape showed up on YT today; sounded like a check airman in the right seat.
Some questioned whether he should have allowed the paramedics to meet him on the runway rather than at the gate.
No judgment from me. Just repeating the comments. I'll try to find it.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Some questioned whether he should have allowed the paramedics to meet him on the runway rather than at the gate.
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It's generally faster to taxi to the gate where the EMTs will be waiting. There are no built in stairs on the airplane so they'd need to setup a ladder if you stopped somewhere on the airfield and carrying the ill person out of the airplane would be problematic.

In such a situation, the airport surface traffic stops and you can taxi quickly, and directly, to the gate. In this case, they did have to stop so that the Captain could be moved and the F/O could switch to the left seat so that he'd be able to steer while taxiing to the gate.
 
Condolences to family, friends and coworkers. Peace to the Captain.
 
Every regional is hiring direct entry captains. And they are of all ages.
 
Velocity173 said:
I agree. With the amount of pax in the back of an airliner, I can’t see 121 going to single for a long time if ever. Part 135 on the other hand, better hope the pilot is healthy. ;) Personally I think FAA should require the same medical (class 1) and retirement (65) for 135, as 121.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106209/pdf
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I was looking for info on this when I found this page and this odd response, my reason for searching for this topic was quite the opposite

So by requiring every working pilot to have the same medical that the guy who died had, that would have stopped this event from happening?


Care to walk me through your logic?



Pilot medicals, for the most part, are just safety theatre, based on the numbers they don’t do much of anything
 
TravisRNT said:
I was looking for info on this when I found this page and this odd response, my reason for searching for this topic was quite the opposite

So by requiring every working pilot to have the same medical that the guy who died had, that would have stopped this event from happening?


Care to walk me through your logic?



Pilot medicals, for the most part, are just safety theatre, based on the numbers they don’t do much of anything
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What’s odd is requiring a higher level of medical for a two pilot commercial aircraft and a lower level for a single pilot commercial aircraft. What’s odd is having a mandatory retirement age of 65 for a two pilot commercial aircraft and none for a single pilot commercial aircraft.

Could a more thorough physical every 6 months catch a medical condition vs a less thorough one annually? It’s possible. And obviously the older we get the more life threatening illnesses we acquire.
 
Velocity173 said:
What’s odd is requiring a higher level of medical for a two pilot commercial aircraft and a lower level for a single pilot commercial aircraft. What’s odd is having a mandatory retirement age of 65 for a two pilot commercial aircraft and none for a single pilot commercial aircraft.

Could a more thorough physical every 6 months catch a medical condition vs a less thorough one annually? It’s possible. And obviously the older we get the more life threatening illnesses we acquire.
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Some forms of heart disease that can result in a heart attack are virtually undetectable except by invasive methods (angiography) - these types of scenarios like with this Envoy captain are so rare as it is so I am not sure if having more thorough physicals would even move the needle.
 
Velocity173 said:
What’s odd is requiring a higher level of medical for a two pilot commercial aircraft and a lower level for a single pilot commercial aircraft. What’s odd is having a mandatory retirement age of 65 for a two pilot commercial aircraft and none for a single pilot commercial aircraft.

Could a more thorough physical every 6 months catch a medical condition vs a less thorough one annually? It’s possible. And obviously the older we get the more life threatening illnesses we acquire.
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The pilot who died was already getting the full Monty of the FAA, 1st class every 6mo, and it didn’t do any good


We need to just make all medicals like basic med and grow up from our child like presumption that we can regulate ourselves to the fake god of “safety”


I also don’t believe for a second the 65 regs have anything to do with safety compared to the financial price to keep senior airline plots on, the logical issues with being well enough to get a 1 on your 66th birthday, but too sick to exercise it’s privileges flying as a high paid airline capt, if it wasn’t so serious it would be a self written joke


We have a current culture that punishes pilots for seeking medical help and being honest, rewards them for not, and we call that “safety”


This horrible incident is proof that the FAA medical system is much like the TSA, lots of headaches for a negative return on our financial and emotional investments
 
Warmi said:
Some forms of heart disease that can result in a heart attack are virtually undetectable except by invasive methods (angiography) - these types of scenarios like with this Envoy captain are so rare as it is so I am not sure if having more thorough physicals would even move the needle.
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You sir are correct.


“But if we had just one more reg!!”
 
Dave Anderson said:
Is it still too early to talk about vaccines and potential side effects like this as a potential? Asking for a friend.

RIP, the story is very sad and the 1st officer did a fantastic professional job.!
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Not sure if he could have got the door open to get the FA up there to pull the capt and start compressions, I also wouldn’t have stopped once on the taxiway, I’d declare and tell them what I’m doing and to clear a path
 
Warmi said:
Some forms of heart disease that can result in a heart attack are virtually undetectable except by invasive methods (angiography) - these types of scenarios like with this Envoy captain are so rare as it is so I am not sure if having more thorough physicals would even move the needle.
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I’m aware of that. Just like there are many other illnesses / diseases that can slip by a flight physical as well.

But it would be naive to believe that going to a doctor at every 4 years on say basic med would be as effective than every 6 months on a class I. It’s only common sense that the more stringent the physical and the shortened time between physicals, the better the chances are at identifying a serious medical condition.

Can’t look at one incident and say physicals don’t work. Just in the last couple of years at my job, I’ve seen two pilots get denied on their medical for serious conditions caught during the physical. Out of 24 pilots, we’ve had about a half dozen get forced into early retirement, all over 60 and all cardiovascular related. There’s a whole slew of medical conditions that really start to develop in our 60s. With the average age of a heart attack being 65 (men) and with 3/4s of ischemic strokes happening after the age of 65, I really don’t have a problem with an age limit in commercial aviation.
 
Warmi said:
You are missing the point … I won’t be automating it - you and thousands others like you will be by having your actions recorded , normalized and used to train the network.
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It's not about replicating our actions, it's about replicating our judgement.

Tesla has over three-million cars on the road gather data for their A.I.s to analyze and they've yet to reliably produce intervention-free drives.

TravisRNT said:
Not sure if he could have got the door open to get the FA up there to pull the capt and start compressions, I also wouldn’t have stopped once on the taxiway, I’d declare and tell them what I’m doing and to clear a path
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He could have unlocked the door without getting out of his seat. The control is within easy reach of both control seats.

They do clear a path for you. They stop all ground traffic that might be in your way and clear you on the shortest route to your gate. I'vedone that a few times for passenger medical emergencies. The reason he had to stop was there is no tiller on the F/O side. He needed to swtich to the left seat in order to be able to make the turns necessary to taxi to the gate.
 
Velocity173 said:
I’m aware of that. Just like there are many other illnesses / diseases that can slip by a flight physical as well.

But it would be naive to believe that going to a doctor at every 4 years on say basic med would be as effective than every 6 months on a class I. It’s only common sense that the more stringent the physical and the shortened time between physicals, the better the chances are at identifying a serious medical condition.

Can’t look at one incident and say physicals don’t work. Just in the last couple of years at my job, I’ve seen two pilots get denied on their medical for serious conditions caught during the physical. Out of 24 pilots, we’ve had about a half dozen get forced into early retirement, all over 60 and all cardiovascular related. There’s a whole slew of medical conditions that really start to develop in our 60s. With the average age of a heart attack being 65 (men) and with 3/4s of ischemic strokes happening after the age of 65, I really don’t have a problem with an age limit in commercial aviation.
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Yet the comparison between FAA medicals and sport yield no difference
 
Larry in TN said:
It's not about replicating our actions, it's about replicating our judgement.

Tesla has over three-million cars on the road gather data for their A.I.s to analyze and they've yet to reliably produce intervention-free drives.


He could have unlocked the door without getting out of his seat. The control is within easy reach of both control seats.

They do clear a path for you. They stop all ground traffic that might be in your way and clear you on the shortest route to your gate. I'vedone that a few times for passenger medical emergencies. The reason he had to stop was there is no tiller on the F/O side. He needed to swtich to the left seat in order to be able to make the turns necessary to taxi to the gate.
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My only qualm would he could have possibly got that guy out of the seat sooner and compressions, not that FAs probably can do compressions worth anything, maybe a AED?
 
TravisRNT said:
My only qualm would he could have possibly got that guy out of the seat sooner and compressions, not that FAs probably can do compressions worth anything, maybe a AED?
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The airplane was not in the air for long, and the check airman was very busy. He would have had to call the F/As, explain the situation, get them to come up front, get the Captain out of the seat (which isn't easy and, depending on the size and strength of the F/As on the flight, might have required getting the help of able-bodied passenger(s)), and get him to the back, all why the check airman continues to fly the airplane back around to a landing and communicating with ATC. The F/As could then start applying their first aid training and soliciting help from any medical professionals onboard.

20/20 hindsight, we know the outcome and trying something different couldn't have been any worse. 20/20 hindsight is not particularly helpful at the time when the decisions have to be made. It was quite reasonable to think that an immediately landing and response by EMTs was the best course.
 
TravisRNT said:
My only qualm would he could have possibly got that guy out of the seat sooner and compressions, not that FAs probably can do compressions worth anything, maybe a AED?
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Do you know what actually transpired in the cockpit? If you have any experience running/participating in a code in a non-critical care area you know what limitations are present. Now apply the limited equipment issue with the confines of the cockpit and a presumable full cardiac arrest…. And the limits on what the PIC can do with the aircraft in the taxiway/ramp environment and tell me that your actions would be better than those persons actually involved??? I have experience in such events (cardiac/trauma/intra operative codes) and I am under no presumption of what happened or what didn’t happen and that I could have done better.
 
robin ardoin said:
Do you know what actually transpired in the cockpit? If you have any experience running/participating in a code in a non-critical care area you know what limitations are present. Now apply the limited equipment issue with the confines of the cockpit and a presumable full cardiac arrest…. And the limits on what the PIC can do with the aircraft in the taxiway/ramp environment and tell me that your actions would be better than those persons actually involved??? I have experience in such events (cardiac/trauma/intra operative codes) and I am under no presumption of what happened or what didn’t happen and that I could have done better.
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Yes


I clearly said the only possible thing he could have done differently

Not faulting him, as you said many don’t think that far ahead
 
Moderator's note: The discussion on single-pilot 121 ops and AI has been split into its own thread and can be found HERE.
 
Sad, but good job by all involved. Anyone can drop dead at any time no matter their age or apparent health. All discussions about regulations and procedures need to start from that assumption.
 
Pilot was named as a Patrick Ford from Tampa FL. Based on search web results it appears he was 55 - same age my healthy father died unexpectedly of a heart attack 4 years ago.
 
Kyle N said:
What data do you have to suggest this accident was related to a vaccine side effect?
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Perhaps you should focus on the word "potential" and not be too triggered. There are plenty of studies that are calling out potential heart issues and other side effects of the jab.
 
I’m not a pilot, or a doctor so there’s a lot in this thread that I don’t understand. I’ve been a paramedic and fire fighter now for over 20 years in a busy fire department in Michigan. Just yesterday I flew AVL to ATL to DTW on a 717 and 737. During the packed full flights, I thought about how difficult it would be to perform a resuscitation on an airplane. Please know that if a crew asked or it was obvious that help was required, I would help in any way possible. I’ve done CPR in some tough spots and in my experience it is completely ineffective while the pt is seated. Intubation, yes. CPR, no. I commend the crew for their professionalism during this incident. It sounds like you did everything you could to help him. My sincere condolences to the captain’s family, his crew and co-workers. Peace
 
I wonder what, if any, announcements the line check airman made to the pax.
 
Oh, that would be NONE, until after at the gate… and then, “please remain in your seats until after the medics come onboard and leave.”
 
Well, it would be appropriate to make a brief announcement to explain why they were returning. Doesn’t have to contain anything real specific.
 
Why I strongly appose the idea of the Airlines lobbying for only one pilot in the seat. I worry enough about flying me and my partner. No way in a huge jet
 
Johnny Costello said:
Why I strongly appose the idea of the Airlines lobbying for only one pilot in the seat. I worry enough about flying me and my partner. No way in a huge jet
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Does your opinion change if they mandate at least one PoA member be present on each flight?
 
what if the one pilot wears flying eyes?



they DO wear flying eyes, right?
 
Well ya, duh. How else ya gonna defy gravity?
 
Oh, let me answer my own question…

The way every good German Officer does, with the book of instruction!

Ok, who knows this reference?
 
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