Engine problem on rotation

455 Bravo Uniform

455 Bravo Uniform

Final Approach
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455 Bravo Uniform
Just had a pretty hefty scare.

Decided to just fly around a bit this afternoon after work. Preflight and runup were fine. Full throttle, RPMs good, oil pressure check showed ok (just past the high side of green), airspeed 40kts, going to 50 about to rotate. Severe vibration started. Felt like nose gear broke, wants to pull left, trying to maintain control, pulled power, then as I was reaching to shut er off, it died on its own. I pulled over to the side of the runway (I used to drag race we always pull off to the side to not soil the track with oil...old habit I guess). Tower diverted ops to crossing runway, which I was just barely short of.

Wow. I know the possible outcome if it had been 10-15 seconds later. Just got my license last month.

It's a rental, so we'll see what happened next week.

Funny, of the two 152s, I always had my favorite. When I was going thru the logbooks prior to my check ride, I noticed my non-favorite had much fewer hours, so I decided to start flying it instead. Screw that bird. If I fly again (yeah, I know how lame that sounds, need to sleep on it) I'll fly the older girl.
 
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Sounds like you did a great job handling it! You just got your license last month which makes all these things fresh in your mind and often those recently out of training are more ready to handle to these things!

Glad as is well, and you're all safe. Don't go crazy thinking of what could have been, instead look at what happened and be proud of you handled it.

Please let us know what they find out happened to the plane when they inspect it.
 
JustinD said:
Sounds like you did a great job handling it! You just got your license last month which makes all these things fresh in your mind and often those recently out of training are more ready to handle to these things!

Glad as is well, and you're all safe. Don't go crazy thinking of what could have been, instead look at what happened and be proud of you handled it.

Please let us know what they find out happened to the plane when they inspect it.
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This is spot on!^

You did well, there's no telling what it could be, but do follow up with this thread and let us know the diagnosis.
 
Great job. You had the presence of mind to pull over. That is proof you were in control of the situation, thinking and doing what you needed to do the whole time. Well done!
Get back in another airplane and go flying.
 
What you described happened to me before. I'm going to say nose wheel shimmy damper.
 
TK211X might be right but regardless of how major or minor the real issue might be, you found something to be wrong and you acted in a safe manner. Better to risk being made fun of for being too conservative than discussed in a "Never again" video.....
 
TK211X said:
What you described happened to me before. I'm going to say nose wheel shimmy damper.
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In his original post he said it died on her own, I'm assuming he meant the engine, if that is the case I doubt a bad shimmy damper made the engine die
 
Pulled mixture instead of throttle? Sounds like shimmy damper to me too. Good job keeping your cool and making the right decision.
Dave
 
What was it about the planes that made one of them them your favorite and the other your non-favorite?
 
If the full rich mixture is a bit too rich, pulling power to idle immediately after takeoff power can kill the engine.
 
Well done.

Don't let it get to you too much, let it make you more vigilant, but not scared.
 
Sounds like it was nose wheel shimmey. These old 152s ain't getting any younger, or 172s for that matter. Why did the engine quit? Too rich of a mixture, idle, I dunno. Definitely should be checked.
 
Sounds like shimmy damper issues, esp. if it "wants to pull left." I would think if there is any problem with the engine, power output would decrease and reduced p-factor etc. would effectively "pull right" (since the pilot is pushing right pedal to start with).
But you never know, so a final report would be appreciated.
BTW, in many older SE Cessnas it's a good idea to gently ease up the nose wheel as soon as you start the takeoff roll -- don't wait for Vr unless you love shimmies.
 
Thank you all for your words and support.

Yes, engine died. It could have been shimmy. Maybe I yanked the throttle control back so hard that I broke something there.

I thought the same thing on mixture control too. We are low enough elevation that the mixture procedure is full rich for take off. I was trying to do "cause analysis" while waiting for the tug - Even though I consciously remember going to full rich in the run-up area (cuz mixture, flaps, and trim are my memory kill-me-now checklist items) I thought crap did I leave it lean at full throttle and burned it up? Mixture control was firewalled.

Man, it sure didn't seem like a calm and cool reaction. I was dumb founded for a second because of my shock (no shimmy damper puns please). It sounded like a very loud engine rod-knock and the vibration made me think the prop broke or I hit something with it. First I stopped back pressure on the yoke. Then it took me a few more seconds to pull throttle back (shock again). Maybe I was at 60+ kts by then, who knows. Then all I tried to do was brake hard enough without losing control - but she was surprisingly squirrelly (shimmy? Not enough tire patch due to speed?) - maybe cuz I over applied the brakes and over controlled the rudder due to fear (on a narrower runway I might have gone off). As I slowed to maybe 10 kts, and going for the left side of rwy, I was going to go mags-off but engine died and I rolled to a stop just as the prop stopped. I should have killed the engine with mixture instead of mags.

This is a good forum to discuss my reaction vs what I should have done, and what might have broke. I'm cool with conjecture, cuz it's all part of cause analysis.

Will head back to the FBO routinely until I hear what they found. My hope is that some hard part in the engine broke, just cuz I don't want the embarrassment. It had just had a 50 hr oil change and another pilot flew it for about 1 hr before me. I thought it wierd that the oil pressure was higher than the green during my roll to take off, I even announced it verbally (shoulda aborted right there). I wonder if the new filter collapsed, or if they put the wrong oil in. In the aftermath, the oil level was still full when I checked and no silver flakes and no funny smell (shimmy? But engine died...).

Broken engine mount? If so, why would engine die? Can engine coming off mount kink the fuel line or pull/bend mixture rod to lean?
 
I listened to my own Live ATC link, lol. Sept 23 KLAF Tower 2230z, about 3-4 minutes in. I'm -50B.
 
@luvflyin - The one that's my favorite is the one I soloed in and used for my XCs. It has a climb prop vs the other one. It trims out super easy. But it has about 15,000 airframe hours. The other one is less "ratty", paint and interior wise because it has less hours.
 
Vibration (shudder?) and ground speed and RPM all came to zero together when I stopped rolling, that's why nose-wheel shimmy can't be ruled out.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
First I stopped back pressure on the yoke.QUOTE]

Yup that'll just make shimmy a bit worse until you slow enough. The first time a nosewheel shimmies on you it gets your attention, but Cessnas are known for it. Even holding full back on the yoke sometimes doesn't help either. Trainers take a beating but keep on ticking!
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455 Bravo Uniform said:
..........................Man, it sure didn't seem like a calm and cool reaction. I was dumb founded for a second because of my shock (no shimmy damper puns please).......................
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And then you 'flew' the airplane, putting your experience and training to work instead of freezing up and just hanging on for the ride. You did not become one of those "like a deer caught in the headlights" statistics. Like so many have already said, Ya done good.
 
If your engine dies when you pull it back to idle there is something wrong, get it fixed. From the OP description it sounds like there are at least two problems with the AP, shimmy or vibration and an engine that stalls when you pull the power back. I doubt the OP did anything wrong.
 
James331 said:
Well done.

Don't let it get to you too much, let it make you more vigilant, but not scared.
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Yeah, I thought about that overnight. My gut reaction (training) was from shock. I'm ok to call it fear (scared) and desire for survival. Whatever it was kicked in.

But the thing that bothered me was not wanting to get back on that horse yesterday...and maybe not today either.

Am I scared? I've never been afraid to die or get hurt in the past (and I requestioned that a lot in bed last night)...I raced cars and was an industrial volunteer firefighter and hazmat responder for a quarter century. I gave those up, but mostly out of duty to my young family at the time (and time management). When I started flight training, the family is older, we are financially fine, I thought that the reward was greater than the slight additional risk. But I think I am having trouble thinking about those that might be left in grief if I'm gone. I can fly to go visit my elderly parents more often, but I'm sure they would rather see me less often than not at all. Dang, too deep, sorry guys, lotsa introspection.
 
Well done on your ADM. As PIC, you felt something was amiss (vibration) and shut it down.

As for introspection - it's good to reflect back on the incident, but don't let it define you. You learn from those moments and move on. Otherwise you let fear prevail and that will consume you. Now you know what to look/feel for and, if you're not comfortable, reject the takeoff. But it's important to get back in the cockpit to reaffirm that you're PIC and fly the aircraft.
 
Just suck it up and go do a few laps in the pattern, you'll feel much better after you do :)
 
I think we all introspect about the risk / reward of flying, especially if it is just a hobby. I know I do. But... don't let fear make the decision for you. All that will do is chew up precious time, if you really love this hobby. None of us is getting any younger.
 
When I was a solo student I aborted a takeoff due to a bad shimmy. Turns out the shimmy damper did need to be replaced. I don't think I got above 20 knots. I got it on video.

 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Yeah, I thought about that overnight. My gut reaction (training) was from shock. I'm ok to call it fear (scared) and desire for survival. Whatever it was kicked in.

But the thing that bothered me was not wanting to get back on that horse yesterday...and maybe not today either.

Am I scared? I've never been afraid to die or get hurt in the past (and I requestioned that a lot in bed last night)...I raced cars and was an industrial volunteer firefighter and hazmat responder for a quarter century. I gave those up, but mostly out of duty to my young family at the time (and time management). When I started flight training, the family is older, we are financially fine, I thought that the reward was greater than the slight additional risk. But I think I am having trouble thinking about those that might be left in grief if I'm gone. I can fly to go visit my elderly parents more often, but I'm sure they would rather see me less often than not at all. Dang, too deep, sorry guys, lotsa introspection.
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Everyone who has had a scare, I.e. Serious car accident, will reflect back after the dust settles.

Maybe to make your feel a little more confident you can do some time in a sim and have them throw every single emergency at you and train to manage them?
 
I don't know how many times I've said it, but nosewheel shimmy is a nosewheel dynamic balance issue, not a shimmy damper issue. That damper is located four links (bolts) above the nosewheel fork, the damper itself has another mounting link, and all of those links get sloppy and the damper can't control even the most minor dynamic imbalance. If the wheel is properly balanced, the links don't wear and the damper can do its job. The parts are expensive so they don't get replaced often enough, and mechanics and owners often don't understand dynamic balancing like the average car tire shop dudes do. Those guys do it because you don't want your steering wheel shaking in cruise on the highway.

A bad shimmy can shake the engine hard enough that the carb sloshes fuel out of its bowl vent into the carb throat and floods the engine.
 
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455 Bravo Uniform said:
Yeah, I thought about that overnight. My gut reaction (training) was from shock. I'm ok to call it fear (scared) and desire for survival. Whatever it was kicked in.

But the thing that bothered me was not wanting to get back on that horse yesterday...and maybe not today either.

Am I scared? I've never been afraid to die or get hurt in the past (and I requestioned that a lot in bed last night)...I raced cars and was an industrial volunteer firefighter and hazmat responder for a quarter century. I gave those up, but mostly out of duty to my young family at the time (and time management). When I started flight training, the family is older, we are financially fine, I thought that the reward was greater than the slight additional risk. But I think I am having trouble thinking about those that might be left in grief if I'm gone. I can fly to go visit my elderly parents more often, but I'm sure they would rather see me less often than not at all. Dang, too deep, sorry guys, lotsa introspection.
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I was just cruising through and found your thread. I must say that as a guy with lots of hours in what many would call an unforgiving airplane, and after scaring myself a lot of times as I've explored the envelope, your thought process is completely normal. I have two kids and a wife who depend on me. I also have a whole squadron that depends on me and on my airplane. That makes crashing and dying affect way more than just me or even just my family. The solution should not be to completely drop something that you otherwise love. You train hard, ensure your machine is properly maintained, and accept risk when it is worth the reward. GA flying is typically a low risk activity with proper mitigation which means the reward doesn't even need to be that great for most flights. Way safer than say, riding a motorcycle.
 
TK211X said:
What you described happened to me before. I'm going to say nose wheel shimmy damper.
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That was my thought as I read this. An engine problem would not make the plane want to pull to one side, unless you have more than one engines.

I used to race cars for a living, not on weekends in the Sears parking lot. I am here to tell you that sometimes I was scared in the car. But I kept that right foot flat on the floor because my pay depended on that. There were times I was shaking so bad as I got into the car that my pit guys had to help me in. But I still got in and raced.

Eventually, no major sponsors came knocking on my door, never got my picture on a box of Wheaties, so I knew it was time to do something else.

Don't let fear get the better of you. Get an instructor if you need to and do a few hops around the pattern. This was not a near death experience. Now you have experienced a nose wheel shimmy. Next time you will instantly know what is happening.
 
Yeah, I can't explain a left turn with the throttle pulled either. I think something broke in the left main gear or maybe the nose gear. Maybe the shimmy damper, but banging noises are a bit extreme for that. As a racer, I presume you know what a bad wheel bearing sounds like, and what broken brakes feel like.

Unless this is a fairly short runway under 2500 feet, you can take a few seconds to pull the throttle and not need excessive braking.

Are you sure a tire didn't go flat? Particularly if your airplane still has wheel pants, that can make some interesting noises. So can a LOW tire, and in my experience, almost no one checks tire pressures during preflight. I require it to be within 10%.

FYI, the altitude that determines leaning at run up is DENSITY altitude, and it's possible to need it at sea level on a hot day.
 
Seeing the vid from @MassPilot - that's pretty similar.

I am betting shimmy.

And fuel slosh or pulling throttle back hard maybe killed engine (which it shouldn't do, but I may yanked so hard I caused throttle blades to overtravel closed).

We'll see what FBO finds on Monday.

I wanna fly.
 
I'm very curious whether OP got out and walked around the aircraft to look for damage after bringing it to a stop. Something broken on the gear or a flat tire would have been rather obvious.
 
No, I was instructed to stay in the plane and maintain radio coms with tower until tug arrives.

When the tug came to get me, we looked at nose gear and tire, all looked fine. Tug driver said the tow back was fine.
 
You don't know me, but a serious piece of advice---the longer you take to get back in an airplane after a scare, the harder it can be to do it. If you want to go up with another pilot or instructor first, that's fine, but it really would behoove you to get back up quickly, if you don't want the thoughts and incident to grow bigger and more problematic.
 
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