Engine out procedure question...

[wbarnhill]

We went over engine out procedure today and basically it was as follows:

+ FLY THE PLANE
+ Maintain optimal glide speed (70mph in the C-150)
+ Locate a landing spot
+ FLY THE PLANE

My question is where would an emergency declaration fit into that? Just anywhere? How would you address it considering you (probably) aren't landing at an airport? Any futher information on this procedure would be helpful

 

[poadeleted3]

I set glide speed, locate a field, run the checklist for a restart, call for help, run the checklist for an engine out landing. And always, always, always, FLY THE PLANE!!

 

[Brian Austin]

I was taught "ABCDEF".

A - Airspeed for best glide
B - Best landing field
C - Checklist for restart
D - Declare an emergency
E - ELT
F - Free the doors prior to touchdown

 

[wbarnhill]

Hrm.. wonder why we never went over anything about restart. Probably in the interest of time. We'll probably get further into it, this is just a question that popped into my head a few minutes after I left.

Thanks for the responses *adds to mental repository*

 

[Carol]

We went over engine out procedure today and basically it was as follows:

+ FLY THE PLANE
+ Maintain optimal glide speed (70mph in the C-150)
+ Locate a landing spot
+ FLY THE PLANE

My question is where would an emergency declaration fit into that? Just anywhere? How would you address it considering you (probably) aren't landing at an airport? Any futher information on this procedure would be helpful

Never drop the airplane to fly the mic

Do those things listed above. Joe's response was good. If you have time then broadcast a mayday, hopefully to an air traffic controller, otherwise FLY THE PLANE. Multitasking skills come into play here.

 

[spiderweb]

Hrm.. wonder why we never went over anything about restart. Probably in the interest of time. We'll probably get further into it, this is just a question that popped into my head a few minutes after I left.

Thanks for the responses *adds to mental repository*

Don't fault your CFI. You're so early on in your training, he may just be emphasizing the two main points: best glide and place to land. For what it is worth, here's my list:

1) Establish best glide
2) Find place to land
3) Prelanding checklist. [Note: my prelanding checklists all contain restart items within the list; for example, "Magnetos on Both."
4) Brief passengers:

A. Fasten seatbelts
B. Glasses and sharp objects under the seat
C. Jacket on yoke or in front of face.
D. Door ajar just before landing​

5) Declare emergency on 121.5 or current freq., and squwak 7700.

You will do this so many times that eventually you'll accomplish the whole list within ten seconds.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I was taught "ABCDEF".

A - Airspeed for best glide
B - Best landing field
C - Checklist for restart
D - Declare an emergency
E - ELT
F - Free the doors prior to touchdown

Same list, different acronym:

A - Airspeed (best glide)
L - Landing area (select)
A - Air start
R - Radios (7700, 121.5)
M - Mayday
S - Secure (door open, fuel & electrical off prior to touchdown)

 

[RotaryWingBob]

5) Declare emergency on 121.5 or current freq., and squwak 7700.

You will do this so many times that eventually you'll accomplish the whole list within ten seconds.

I wouldn't do this if I was already talking to ATC -- I'd maintain my squawk code and declare the emergency on the frequency I was already using -- they already know who you are and where you are.

 

[The Old Man]

First, realize and KNOW that the checklists presume that no restart is possible. Yes, restart checks are in the middle after glide speed and landing spot selection, but they are still something that is done literally in your spare time.

When we came to this point in my training, my instructor started by saying that virtually all power losses can be fixed. In 25000 hours, he has made only 1 off field landing.

His training was to know your airplane. Just like the question "what would you do if you suddenly realized that you have no idea where you are?" in XC navigation. My answer to that has always been that it will never happen suddenly. I will have become unsure of my location and fixed it some time well before I became totally lost.

The same is true of power losses. You should have had some indication before it happens that something is not right. Your actions when you felt that something was going wrong will determine the actions needed after the power loss.

Example from my experience: I have had a power loss in flight 5 times in 450 hours. In all but the first one I knew immediately what the problem was. I should have switched tanks 5+ minutes ago. Because the "switch tanks" instruction was in my mind, the "oops" thought occurred about the second engine hiccup. The first action is switch tanks followed immediately by full throttle. In only 1 case has the engine not caught before I could even look out the window.

This illustrates knowing the problem cause before it happens. When this is the case, take the action required by that problem, then start the checklist.

In more obscure problems, the actions are different. If you have noticed increasing roughness, falling oil pressure, etc over the last 10+ minutes, you should already be executing some kind of plan including where to land.

The overall point here (IMHO) is that when the fan stops blowing, you should know immediately whether restart is possible. If you got distracted or miscalculated the fuel in the current tank, switch and then start the checklist. If the prop stops completely and there is oil all over the windshield, don't bother with any re-start attempt, that is just wasting valuable time. Get your glide speed and look for the landing spot. You CAN call ATC while you are looking and/or manuevering.

 

[gibbons]

Hrm.. wonder why we never went over anything about restart. Probably in the interest of time.

During my first visit to SimCom to go through Baron school the instructor failed an engine (in a simulator) in IMC conditions. I put the engine away and made a less than perfect single engine ILS approach to a nearby airport. The instructor shook his head and said lots of people do that. He explained that he had simply failed the engine driven fuel pump and that if I had gone through my restart checklist I would have caught it, flipped on the electric fuel pump, and flown away fat, dumb, and happy. Restart checklist? No one had ever discussed trying to restart the failed engine before and this is still the only instructor who has done so.

There may be better memory devices out there, but here's what this particular instructor used:

Oh gee, I am falling!
O - Oil pressure (you're always watching that, right? If it drops and the engine dies go to item 5)
G - Gas. (switch tanks, fuel pumps, crossfeed, whatever...)
I - Ignition (check mags on)
A - Air (induction air or carb heat)
F - Feather (If you're in a single you can substitute freely here)

As far as some of the longer lists for preparing for off field landings go, those make sense but I wouldn't be surprised if they are hard to remember when the emergency actually arises. I think I've told this story before on the AOPA board: I used to fly without my sholder restraint, thinking I would put it on if I was ever faced with an off field landing. When I had the fire in the Baron and landed in a field it was three days before I remembered that I hadn't put my sholder strap on.

I've heard that during an emergency, "If it doesn't come automatically, it doesn't come at all." I believe it. Practice, practice, practice....

Chip

 

[Alan]

During my first visit to SimCom to go through Baron school the instructor failed an engine (in a simulator) in IMC conditions. I put the engine away and made a less than perfect single engine ILS approach to a nearby airport. The instructor shook his head and said lots of people do that. He explained that he had simply failed the engine driven fuel pump and that if I had gone through my restart checklist I would have caught it, flipped on the electric fuel pump, and flown away fat, dumb, and happy. Restart checklist? No one had ever discussed trying to restart the failed engine before and this is still the only instructor who has done so.


Chip

I'll agree with that if you're in cruise or cruise/climb with plenty of speed and altitude. If it's down low, I ain't gonna be troubleshooting. I'll get it caged and and back on the runway.

Didn't someone just post a NTSB where the pilot tried the fuel pump, etc and finally feathered the engine about the time he hit the trees? I think the right seater survived and reported the events.

 

[gibbons]

I'll agree with that if you're in cruise or cruise/climb with plenty of speed and altitude. If it's down low, I ain't gonna be troubleshooting. I'll get it caged and and back on the runway.

Alan,

Great point and one I should have made in my original post. We were tooling along at cruise when I had the simulated loss of engine... er, lost the simulated engine.... whatever.

Chip

 

[pete177]

Example from my experience: I have had a power loss in flight 5 times in 450 hours. In all but the first one I knew immediately what the problem was. I should have switched tanks 5+ minutes ago. Because the "switch tanks" instruction was in my mind, the "oops" thought occurred about the second engine hiccup. The first action is switch tanks followed immediately by full throttle. In only 1 case has the engine not caught before I could even look out the window.

You've forgotten to switch tanks 5 times in 450 hours? Is that a joke? Hey, I'm a bit of an alzhiemers candidate myself but thats carrying things a bit too far.

 

[AirBaker]

Hrm.. wonder why we never went over anything about restart. Probably in the interest of time. We'll probably get further into it, this is just a question that popped into my head a few minutes after I left.

Thanks for the responses *adds to mental repository*

Well, you take care of what you need to first. IF you find yourself having extra time in that situation.... then you need to be doing something else.

I got hooked on the checkmate checklists. If this happened to me, I would go through the ABCDs, then flip over the checklist and do the emergency procedures on the back.

 

[bbchien]

Particularly hard to start (if you don't know it cold) engines like the hot IO470 and IO520s really need to be taught overhead the field at 6000 agl in VMC with a co-operative tower. Everyone has their pet way of restarting- I use overrich to overlean crossovers in these engines- but once mastered on the ground, do it in the air with a CFI and a stopwatch. It's very enlightening....

 

[wbarnhill]

Particularly hard to start (if you don't know it cold) engines like the hot IO470 and IO520s really need to be taught overhead the field at 6000 agl in VMC with a co-operative tower. Everyone has their pet way of restarting- I use overrich to overlean crossovers in these engines- but once mastered on the ground, do it in the air with a CFI and a stopwatch. It's very enlightening....

I only comprehended about 10 words out of that, so I'm just going to nod my head now

*nods*

Thanks again for all the help everyone It's like having additional CFIs (who aren't charging me the 30$/hr)

 

[The Old Man]

You've forgotten to switch tanks 5 times in 450 hours? Is that a joke? Hey, I'm a bit of an alzhiemers candidate myself but thats carrying things a bit too far.

I wuz wonderin' if somebody would catch that. All 5 times have been while on the right tank.

The fuel system in my Musketeer begs to create that problem.

Fuel injected IO346A. Overflow fuel is returned to left tank regardless of which tank you are currently using. Fuel usage is about 16gph from the right tank but you are "making" about 6gph+ in the left tank.

First time it happened I had no idea why. Fortunately, it was right after I got the plane and my CFI was with me.

Second time I simply mis estimated the time left on the right tank before takeoff. (Consider: "hmmm, 10gph fuel burn. Fuel in both tanks is to tab. 1.5 hours in each tank. I'll run first hour on right then switch to left for the remaining 45 minutes.) I got right at 50 minutes before the engine sputtered.

Third time, I did it on purpose to see the instrument indications presented.

Last 2 times, I have been distracted at the time I mentally marked to do it. Both cases, I was intending to get the right tank as low as possible before a fill up. Well, I wound up both times getting to recheck the amount of useable gas when the tank is to the tab or slot.

Side note: all the normal methods for tank switching are out the window. The selector is placarder and there is a decal on the panel saying to run 1.5 hours out of left tank before switching to right tank. I forgot that once and filled both tanks and took off using the right tank. Near as I could guestimate, I blew 4 gallons overboard before I switched to the left tank.

 

[bbchien]

I only comprehended about 10 words out of that, so I'm just going to nod my head now

William, a big problem in restarting hot fuel injected engines is vaporization- the lines are so hot the fuel vaporizes in the line and so the engine is dry. "Vapor lock". The response is to use external boost pressure (the cam powered pump is "pulling" the fuel, so pressure in the line lessens, fuel boils-->no fuel flow. The pump can't move fuel in gaseous state.

So, many operators have learned to flood the manifold. External fuel pumping with all regulators open (mix, throttle), then, Mix to idle cutoff, full open throttle (lotsa air, no new fuel). Crank until the mix, at first over-rich goes through combustible toward lean. At the first catch, Wide open mix and throttle.

Now mind you don't try this at 6000 AGL in winter. The engine, exposed to 100 mph cold air, will get core cold faster than you can get it planted on the ground.

 

[gismo]

William, a big problem in restarting hot fuel injected engines is vaporization- the lines are so hot the fuel vaporizes in the line and so the engine is dry. "Vapor lock". The response is to use external boost pressure (the cam powered pump is "pulling" the fuel, so pressure in the line lessens, fuel boils-->no fuel flow. The pump can't move fuel in gaseous state.

So, many operators have learned to flood the manifold. External fuel pumping with all regulators open (mix, throttle), then, Mix to idle cutoff, full open throttle (lotsa air, no new fuel). Crank until the mix, at first over-rich goes through combustible toward lean. At the first catch, Wide open mix and throttle.

Now mind you don't try this at 6000 AGL in winter. The engine, exposed to 100 mph cold air, will get core cold faster than you can get it planted on the ground.

Bruce, I've never had any problems with airstarting the IO-470's in my Baron, although there have been times when a hot start on the ground was tedious for the reasons you mention. In the air, I don't see how boiling fuel would be a problem as there's plenty of cooling air coming through the nacelle. If it were really hot I would probably try low boost to insure vapor free fuel to the engine driven pump.

I did have an interesting experience trying to relight an engine on the Dutchess I trained in. In that case the biggest problem was the lack of a working accumulator and the engine's reluctance to turn. I think it took a couple minutes and several thousand feet of altitude to get it running again. I have wondered whether the instructor's advice of diving for airspeed was a good idea. It sure didn't seem to help the feathered engine turn.

 

[bbchien]

My IO 470 experience is in the Cessna 205 in Arizona at 7012 MSL Flagstaff. Summers are warm. It could be the installation- after all it's the accessories that make the engine hard to start...fuel spider, local cooling, etc. But that once I learned aerial restart at 12,000 and just got is going at 8,500. Over three minutes to success at minus 1000 fpm.

 

[gismo]

. He explained that he had simply failed the engine driven fuel pump and that if I had gone through my restart checklist I would have caught it, flipped on the electric fuel pump, and flown away fat, dumb, and happy. Restart checklist? No one had ever discussed trying to restart the failed engine before and this is still the only instructor who has done so.

F - Feather (If you're in a single you can substitute freely here)

Actually, in a single with a C/S prop, you should "feather" the prop to extend the glide range. That means pulling the prop to minumum RPM which decreases the drag noticeably. For some reason this is rarely taught, and often not even mentioned in the POH.

As far as some of the longer lists for preparing for off field landings go, those make sense but I wouldn't be surprised if they are hard to remember when the emergency actually arises. I think I've told this story before on the AOPA board: I used to fly without my sholder restraint, thinking I would put it on if I was ever faced with an off field landing. When I had the fire in the Baron and landed in a field it was three days before I remembered that I hadn't put my sholder strap on.

I would say that an on-board fire would qualify as a distraction, and distractions in general tend to keep one from thinking well.

 

[poadeleted3]

snip
I would say that an on-board fire would qualify as a distraction, and distractions in general tend to keep one from thinking well.

The fact that you don't think as well under life and death stress is why you must train as realistically as possible. If you aren't going to wear a shoulder harness during cruise (I do, but that's just me), then when you are training for emergencies, make sure to actually put it on. I've had instructors tell me to just read checklist items for emergency procedures. That seems a horrible idea to me. I at least get a hand on whichever item I need to interact with, so I know where it is, and if done often enough my body will tend to go there without much prompting from a stressed out brain. I know for a fact, you will react exactly like you trained when under stress, so your training must be as close to reality as safely possible.

 

[bbchien]

The fact that you don't think as well under life and death stress is why you must train as realistically as possible.... ...so your training must be as close to reality as safely possible.

I do believe in addition to engine out/make the landing site training, every SE pilot needs to have the course reversal hairpin taught and practiced, and to have learned their limits. This training can save you bacon, and knowing when not to attempt it is vital as well. You CANNOT safely learn this maneuver while under duress.

 

[poadeleted3]

I do believe in addition to engine out/make the landing site training, every SE pilot needs to have the course reversal hairpin taught and practiced, and to have learned their limits. This training can save you bacon, and knowing when not to attempt it is vital as well. You CANNOT safely learn this maneuver while under duress.

That's a maneuver I've yet to learn As a consequence, my pre-takeoff plans include going straight ahead should I find myself flying a glider below 700 feet. I'm glad you've jogged my memory, I can hook up with Barb Reeder, the instructor who finished my private, and seek some training. She seems quite experienced and quite good, which is important. I'm harboring a sneaking suspicion (or arrogance) that I'm a better pilot than a lot of the younger instructors I've seen.

 

[pete177]

Holy cow..what a mess


QUOTE=The Old Man]I wuz wonderin' if somebody would catch that. All 5 times have been while on the right tank.

The fuel system in my Musketeer begs to create that problem.

Fuel injected IO346A. Overflow fuel is returned to left tank regardless of which tank you are currently using. Fuel usage is about 16gph from the right tank but you are "making" about 6gph+ in the left tank.

First time it happened I had no idea why. Fortunately, it was right after I got the plane and my CFI was with me.

Second time I simply mis estimated the time left on the right tank before takeoff. (Consider: "hmmm, 10gph fuel burn. Fuel in both tanks is to tab. 1.5 hours in each tank. I'll run first hour on right then switch to left for the remaining 45 minutes.) I got right at 50 minutes before the engine sputtered.

Third time, I did it on purpose to see the instrument indications presented.

Last 2 times, I have been distracted at the time I mentally marked to do it. Both cases, I was intending to get the right tank as low as possible before a fill up. Well, I wound up both times getting to recheck the amount of useable gas when the tank is to the tab or slot.

Side note: all the normal methods for tank switching are out the window. The selector is placarder and there is a decal on the panel saying to run 1.5 hours out of left tank before switching to right tank. I forgot that once and filled both tanks and took off using the right tank. Near as I could guestimate, I blew 4 gallons overboard before I switched to the left tank.[/QUOTE]

 

[waldo]

This might have been mentioned but I didn't notice it. I never thought of this until I was working on my IFR ticket but the first thing to do is "trade airspeed for altitude". When I was practicing I would casually trim for best glide speed and begin looking for a safe landing place. Now I would quickly trade airspeed for altitude first . . . . . you would be surprised how much altitude you can gain as you bleed off the airspeed to best glide speed. This will give you a few more moments to glide and hopefully make it to that field that you might have come up short otherwise.

 

[poadeleted3]

This might have been mentioned but I didn't notice it. I never thought of this until I was working on my IFR ticket but the first thing to do is "trade airspeed for altitude". When I was practicing I would casually trim for best glide speed and begin looking for a safe landing place. Now I would quickly trade airspeed for altitude first . . . . . you would be surprised how much altitude you can gain as you bleed off the airspeed to best glide speed. This will give you a few more moments to glide and hopefully make it to that field that you might have come up short otherwise.

I've read raging debates about whether it's best to climb for altitude, or best to maintain a level attitude while your speed decreases to best glide. I'm going to schedule an hour or two of dual next month to practice a couple different engine out scenarios (a weak point with me), and I hope I remember to test this out for myself.

 

[gismo]

I've read raging debates about whether it's best to climb for altitude, or best to maintain a level attitude while your speed decreases to best glide. I'm going to schedule an hour or two of dual next month to practice a couple different engine out scenarios (a weak point with me), and I hope I remember to test this out for myself.

IMO, if you want to maximize your time aloft you should pitch up at a pretty good clip until you approach min sink speed. If you want to achieve max range, then the answer most likely hinges on which altitudes have the most favorable winds for the direction you wish to go.

Then again, chances are you won't know immediately which way you want to go so pitching up for min sink speed would be appropriate until you decide the destination.

 

[T Bone]

I've read raging debates about whether it's best to climb for altitude, or best to maintain a level attitude while your speed decreases to best glide. I'm going to schedule an hour or two of dual next month to practice a couple different engine out scenarios (a weak point with me), and I hope I remember to test this out for myself.

Discussed this with my CFI during primary training. His resonse was that it depends. If in the pattern (and maybe upon where in the pattern) he would not. Out in the boonies? Well, are we at 7000 feet agl? On my checkride, the DE pulled the power at I think around 1800 agl. First thing I did (while adding carb heat) was pull for best glide speed, and begin trimming immediately. I think that 30 knots or so bought us a two or three hundred feet.... which at max glide translates to about a half mile. Left me plenty of time to do a shallow 180, pick a better field than I'd have gotten otherwise (and make it). She seemed pleased....

 

[Silicon Rallye]

Discussed this with my CFI during primary training. His resonse was that it depends. If in the pattern (and maybe upon where in the pattern) he would not. Out in the boonies? Well, are we at 7000 feet agl? On my checkride, the DE pulled the power at I think around 1800 agl. First thing I did (while adding carb heat) was pull for best glide speed, and begin trimming immediately. I think that 30 knots or so bought us a two or three hundred feet.... which at max glide translates to about a half mile. Left me plenty of time to do a shallow 180, pick a better field than I'd have gotten otherwise (and make it). She seemed pleased....

Absolutely. There are different procedures for different conditions.

True story: I was towing gliders in a Cherokee 235 a while back and had just taken off with a glider in tow; at 400 AGL, the engine quit. I was really surprised with how fast I went completely through engine-out procedures and got it running again. I think I lost about 50 feet of altitude with zero airspeed loss. Towing gliders in a Cherokee puts you at or near the minimum controllable airspeed range.

Things happened automatically (I think) but we never found out why it happened.

 

[MSmith]

I've read raging debates about whether it's best to climb for altitude, or best to maintain a level attitude while your speed decreases to best glide. I'm going to schedule an hour or two of dual next month to practice a couple different engine out scenarios (a weak point with me), and I hope I remember to test this out for myself.

Please do let us know.

I changed instructors 1/2 way through my Private, and the first instructor was of the "let it slow down" school. The 2nd instructor was of the "pull up" school.