Engine out over Alaska - what would you do in this case

MountainDude said:
What if the plane is arrested by tree canopies 200' above ground, then later it starts to slip and maybe crashes to the ground? That seems potentially dangerous.
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The question wasn't which choice poses no risk.
 
BRS parachute? Never seen one. This is a silly thread with lots of misinformation. If you want statistics? Search the NTSB records of land vs water aviation accidents. Exclude CFIT and other flight accidents that will skew the answer you're looking for. I believe you'll find the fatality rate of survivable impacts is better on land. Of the accidents I'm familiar with that's certainly true.
 
The survival rate (GA) of ditching is about 88%. I cannot find anything on land, but more important is what THAT land looks like. You can't see it until you get low, so you're looking for a clearing, near the lake, where you can make a fast evaluation for fallen trees and stumps. If that is clear, you'd rather land on the ground, but if not, there is an option to ditch next to the shore.
 
No
MountainDude said:
What if the plane is arrested by tree canopies 200' above ground, then later it starts to slip and maybe crashes to the ground? That seems potentially dangerous.
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Not likely with a chute. It might hang up but it’s not going to fall.
 
Zeldman said:
Because the shore line sticks up out of the water at 80 degrees, nothing else to choose but the water... :lol::lol:

And everyone knows southeast Alaska is not really Alaska....:yesnod::yesnod:

But yes, one time that stupid turbo 207 quit running on me and I was aiming for the shoreline at Funter Bay. It was going to hurt a little but it would not have been fatal, especially with civilization really close. Someone would have heard the crash landing and sent help. Plus I was in radio contact with the dispatcher during all this, but I got it running again so it's all a moot point.
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A few years ago, Seaplanes had a 207 go down on the way back to JNU. I think they put down in the water just off Coghlan Island, or one of those small islands, and everyone got out and got to shore.

It is all well and good to say go in the trees, but when the trees are on a rocky, 60 degrees slope, the water doesn't look so bad. Relatively speaking.
 
How about trying for a low level parallel to the non existent beach cartwheel into the tree-shoreline interface? I can swim if not knocked out. If I am out it isn't gonna hurt anyway. Crack open doors before crashing.
 
How much control do you really have about where you end up with you pull the chute?
 
Salty said:
How much control do you really have about where you end up with you pull the chute?
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If the winds are calm, you can glide to an area and pull the chute at ~1000 agl. That's about it. If it's blowing hard, who knows.
 
Going back to the original picture it doesn't appear to have been taken from an airplane and the spot where the photographer is standing seems quite pleasant.
 
Silvaire said:
Going back to the original picture it doesn't appear to have been taken from an airplane and the spot where the photographer is standing seems quite pleasant.
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Because it's daytime. Let it get dark at that altitude and it wont be so pleasant.
 
MountainDude said:
Yes, but the BRS:
1) pretty much guarantees you will survive the "landing". Ditching with a fixed-gear plane does not
2) also guarantees the plane will not flip over upon ditching, which is a huge advantage
3) gives you plenty of time on the way down to get your survival gear ready, including activating two 406 PLBs
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No. Not at all. Look at the video of the Cirrus that went down on its way to Hawaii in 2015 when the fuel system developed problems. The wind, pulling the 'chute, rolled the airplane over in the water.
 
I used to maintain a 172S with the BRS installation. It adds 77 pounds to the empty weight and takes up a big bunch of the baggage compartment.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I used to maintain a 172S with the BRS installation. It adds 77 pounds to the empty weight and takes up a big bunch of the baggage compartment.
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Yeah, one of my pals has one in his Skyhawk. What Dan Thomas said. Takes up most the baggage compartment, weighs a lot, costs a lot to buy, install and repack. He can have it.

I'm surprised Dan Thomas can afford an airplane, seeing he can't afford a last name.
 
DavidWhite said:
Concur 100%. Everyone I know who has survived a crash in southeast has stuck it in the water.
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Yup. And 2 where I knew the pilots went in the trees lost both pilots. Pax survived.


Zeldman said:
That is the one I am talking about. It quit running on 2 other people the summer it quit on me.
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And one of those others didn't make it back to the runway. Landed about 200 yards short. I was working there the next year when the same plane went into Auke Bay. Did they ever tell you why the engine quit 3 times that year?
 
Dan Thomas said:
No. Not at all. Look at the video of the Cirrus that went down on its way to Hawaii in 2015 when the fuel system developed problems. The wind, pulling the 'chute, rolled the airplane over in the water.
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Good point. It took a minute to happen, so that's OK, but it is good to know if it's windy what to expect. Thank you
 
steingar said:
Yeah, one of my pals has one in his Skyhawk. What Dan Thomas said. Takes up most the baggage compartment, weighs a lot, costs a lot to buy, install and repack. He can have it.

I'm surprised Dan Thomas can afford an airplane, seeing he can't afford a last name.
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These are all valid excuses not to get a BRS. However, none of that matters in case of an emergency away from an airport.
As an FYI, my C182 has a #1200 useful load even with the BRS, and the extended baggage compartment is still very large.
Different strokes for different folks.
 
Funny, I fly a C182 in Alaska.

Trees or an open area, not the water. Maybe a beech if it's not too rocky. Mine definitely does not have a chute. I'd be surprised if more than a dozen planes in the state had a BRS, maybe I'm wrong. Most of us are working with 50+ year old airplanes.

I keep a 406 PLB on my vest when I fly up here, I plan to turn it on if I think I'm headed for a rough landing during a mechanical problem. Probably won't help aside from finding the body, but you never know.

I fly over Fjord looking areas like the picture semi-regularly and the thread topic is what's going through my mind a lot of the flight. It can really take the fun out of flying.
 
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Well... can’t you go in the water, but very close to land? Maybe I’m missing something..
 
bflynn said:
There is even a story of a fisherman in Greenland who fell off his boat, swam to shore, then stayed warm by vigorously hiking to safety.
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Maybe you mean this one -
" Icelandic fisherman who survived six hours in 5 °C (41 °F) cold water after his fishing vessel had capsized and furthermore trekked, for another three hours, across lava fields to reach a town for help in freezing conditions."

The other 4 on the boat died. This guy was 250lb, 23 years old and built like an elephant seal.

"His body temperature was below 34 °C (93 °F) yet he showed almost no symptoms of hypothermia nor vasodilatation, only of dehydration
...
Together, they demonstrated that the 23-year old, 125 kg (250 lbs) Icelander has phenomenal resistance to cold."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guðlaugur_Friðþórsson

I don't think that Guðlaugur's remarkable story should be used as a survival guide by anyone.

There is a movie!!!
  • The Deep – 2012 movie based on Guðlaugur's survival story
A non-tabloid contemporary report from New scientist -

https://books.google.com/books?id=rYIJJP7audkC&q=gudlaugur+fridthorsson&pg=PA26
 
Narwhal said:
Funny, I fly a C182 in Alaska.

Trees or an open area, not the water. Maybe a beech if it's not too rocky. Mine definitely does not have a chute. I'd be surprised if more than a dozen planes in the state had a BRS, maybe I'm wrong. Most of us are working with 50+ year old airplanes.

I keep a 406 PLB on my vest when I fly up here, I plan to turn it on if I think I'm headed for a rough landing during a mechanical problem. Probably won't help aside from finding the body, but you never know.

I fly over Fjord looking areas like the picture semi-regularly and the thread topic is what's going through my mind a lot of the flight. It can really take the fun out of flying.
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Whoa - just because you actually fly a 182 in AK gives you the impression you know what you're talking about, vs everyone else here who has never even been to Alaska? Let's not bring in actual experience and reality to these threads.
 
WDD said:
Whoa - just because you actually fly a 182 in AK gives you the impression you know what you're talking about, vs everyone else here who has never even been to Alaska? Let's not bring in actual experience and reality to these threads.
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There are multiple Alaskas. Most of us who are thinking water, have years flying in SE Alaska where the trees tend to be on a steep and rocky slope and not spindly evergreens on relatively flat land. If you recall, this discussion started with the OP specifying the SE.
 
MountainDude said:
Good point. It took a minute to happen, so that's OK, but it is good to know if it's windy what to expect. Thank you
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Judging by the relatively mild waves, the wind wasn't strong at all. In a higher wind the airplane would have been pulled over quickly, possibly even preventing egress.
 
Whoever selected the background music for that Cirrus video is in need of some psychiatric help. He's practically crying out for it.
 
Narwhal said:
Funny, I fly a C182 in Alaska.

Trees or an open area, not the water. Maybe a beech if it's not too rocky. Mine definitely does not have a chute. I'd be surprised if more than a dozen planes in the state had a BRS, maybe I'm wrong. Most of us are working with 50+ year old airplanes.

I keep a 406 PLB on my vest when I fly up here, I plan to turn it on if I think I'm headed for a rough landing during a mechanical problem. Probably won't help aside from finding the body, but you never know.

I fly over Fjord looking areas like the picture semi-regularly and the thread topic is what's going through my mind a lot of the flight. It can really take the fun out of flying.
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Thank you. You have the most relevant experience. If you had a BRS and a raft and PFDs, would you still aim for the forest?
 
Kritchlow said:
Well... can’t you go in the water, but very close to land? Maybe I’m missing something..
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If the winds are calm, yes. Do you think water close to the shore is better than forest?
 
MountainDude said:
If the winds are calm, yes. Do you think water close to the shore is better than forest?
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Yes. But, I’m not an expert on Alaska stuff. I’m just thinking about not hitting trees, yet not drowning trying to swim to shore.
 
MountainDude said:
Thank you. You have the most relevant experience. If you had a BRS and a raft and PFDs, would you still aim for the forest?
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I would probably be even more apt to go for the trees if I had the chute. I’m in south central AK, but I treat most water up here as if it were lava in a wheel plane, especially any kind of ocean water.

Exceptions being a shallow rivers/streams or small ponds. In that case, if the trees were super tall on steep terrain, I might be tempted to land parallel to the shore, but as close as possible, hopefully within a wingspan of the shore. I flew over Lake Clark last summer and this was my strategy, should the worst occur. With the chute I would rather risk getting hung up in trees than hypothermia in the water.

There was a Cub that lost power over the Knik arm a few years back, which is only a few miles wide. They ditched in the water and never found the pilot. Very strong currents/tides. I alway try to cross the water within gliding distance of the shore. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/08/accident-occurred-near-birchwood.html . Might’ve been carb ice. I am not thrilled about flying carbed airplanes up here, but that’s 95% of the GA fleet.

All this said, I am an AK neophyte having only lived here 2 years. I am planning to take winter survival and crash survival courses to expand my knowledge.
 
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AK neophyte... buy a 406 ELT. It makes a difference for who gets sent to find you.

I've lived in AK for 53 years and flown here for 28 of them. I have much to learn from threads like this. The first time I went swimming in Auke Bay was the summer of 1968. Never considered doing it again. The water isn't as cold as further north but there's a reason offshore swimming isn't a thing in Alaska. Since moving to Wasilla I don't have to cross lethally cold ocean water on every flight anymore. I don't miss that.
 
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Narwhal said:
All this said, I am an AK neophyte having only lived here 2 years. I am planning to take winter survival and crash survival courses to expand my knowledge.
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You'll be amazed at what you learn. More than 20 years ago I took a course from Transport Canada, based on their accident investigations. So much of what we "know" is based on very shallow experience as city/town dwellers and is completely wrong. Nearly 30 years ago I took a wilderness survival/wilderness first aid course and managed to unlearn a lot of baloney. And that was me, a guy familiar with back country boating, camping and fishing.

The wilderness has a thousand ways of killing you dead, and every year we read of accidents in remote or mountainous country that would have been survivable if the pilot simply had mountain flight and survival training. In fact, the mountain flight training would often have prevented the accident in the first place.

And yes, a 406 ELT. It looks expensive until suddenly you need it.
 
Stewartb said:
AK neophyte... buy a 406 ELT. It makes a difference for who gets sent to find you.

I've lived in AK for 53 years and flown here for 28 of them. I have much to learn from threads like this. The first time I went swimming in Auke Bay was the summer of 1968. Never considered doing it again. The water isn't as cold as further north but there's a reason offshore swimming isn't a thing in Alaska. Since moving to Wasilla I don't have to cross lethally cold ocean water on every flight anymore. I don't miss that.
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Yeah, I have a PLB on my vest ready to go, would like to get the real deal 406 but couldn't convince my partners to go for the $2k expense. Tempted to just do it on my own anyway....
 
Narwhal said:
Yeah, I have a PLB on my vest ready to go, would like to get the real deal 406 but couldn't convince my partners to go for the $2k expense. Tempted to just do it on my own anyway....
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As I weigh the pros and cons of taking on a partner to help share expenses, THIS is the type of con that keeps me from going that route. Of course the big reason is that I like to take frequent 3 week trips occasionally.
 
Sounds very interesting—key points or recommended references? Trees or water bias from your training?

Thanks

Dan Thomas said:
You'll be amazed at what you learn. More than 20 years ago I took a course from Transport Canada, based on their accident investigations. So much of what we "know" is based on very shallow experience as city/town dwellers and is completely wrong. Nearly 30 years ago I took a wilderness survival/wilderness first aid course and managed to unlearn a lot of baloney. And that was me, a guy familiar with back country boating, camping and fishing.

The wilderness has a thousand ways of killing you dead, and every year we read of accidents in remote or mountainous country that would have been survivable if the pilot simply had mountain flight and survival training. In fact, the mountain flight training would often have prevented the accident in the first place.

And yes, a 406 ELT. It looks expensive until suddenly you need it.
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Narwhal said:
Yeah, I have a PLB on my vest ready to go, would like to get the real deal 406 but couldn't convince my partners to go for the $2k expense. Tempted to just do it on my own anyway....
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Keep in mind that in AK a PLB beacon response is dispatched to the Troopers. ELT beacons go to RCC.
 
Piperonca said:
Sounds very interesting—key points or recommended references? Trees or water bias from your training?

Thanks
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Trees. Water is great if the airplane is on fire. Just getting out after ditching can be perilous, and there's a company on Vancouver Island that offers water egress training to try to reduce the fatality rate. When you've hit the water and violently decelerated and tumbled over upside down in an airplane and cold water is rushing in and getting into your nose and mouth, you don't think sensibly anymore and you panic. And drown. No, I've not had that egress training. https://www.proaviation.ca/
 
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