Engine Block Heater on 24/7/365!?

[SleeperRX7]

New guy here..............seeking advice and possible answers! Apologizes if I am in the wrong area.

My conundrum is as follows.

1. I have a good paying hangar tenant who has a non-airworthy aircraft.
2. The airplane has not flown or left the t-hangar in an estimated (12 years?).
3. The engine block heater has been plugged in 24/7/365!
4. Non active aircraft, not purchasing fuel, and the aircraft is barely monitored by the owner. He only shows up to view the aircraft when a call is made to complain, etc.
5. Rodent intrusion was an issue, but the aircraft owner did clean up the t-hangar a bit after several letters were mailed out, etc. The aircraft owner does work with us to some degree, but I doubt he will ever make the airplane airworthy again or be able to acquire a medical ever again.
6. Owner will not unplug the block heater, EVER!

Has anyone here ever heard of such behavior or know of a similar situation and if so, how have you or the airport itself corrected the issue? I cant possibly imagine the engine is salvageable at this point. The cam shaft must be a solid chunk of rust (warm crank & cooler cam shaft)!? Obviously we can change the t-hangar lease as they expire at the end of every month, etc., but we dont want to have a bad reputation with our guests. I have asked the tenant to install a Thermocube Thermostat (I am willing to purchase), and simply pickle the engine with the appropriate kit from Aircraft Spruce, but the aircraft owner simply says "no"........................................what would you do!?

 

[A1Topgun]

Who pays the electric bill?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

What type of plane?

 

[A1Topgun]

If you are paying, have the electric company install a new meter on that hangar and transfer the bill to him. Then he can leave it on 24/7/365!

 

[A1Topgun]

What type of plane?

Scrap!

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Scrap!

Scrap engine, not necessarily a scrap plane. Lots of people, myself included, have taken planes that haven't flown in many years and made them into working lovely examples again.

Sure am tired of the "Plane hasn't flown in a month, time to send it to the scrap yard" rhetoric around here. (obvious hyperbole, but you get the point)

 

[SleeperRX7]

If you are paying, have the electric company install a new meter on that hangar and transfer the bill to him. Then he can leave it on 24/7/365!

T-hangars are very old and circuit breakers lead to multiple hangars when you flip one off. Each row only has one meter. A complete rewire would be required. Funding is tight as usual and rewiring the old hangars just wouldn't make sense...............

 

[SleeperRX7]

Scrap!

Its an old Grumman Tiger

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

After 12 years, I suspect that any moisture left from running the engine has evaporated.
Keeping it warm would have two effects - warmer = faster corrosion, but warmer also reduces the relative humidity and chance of condensation. Not sure which will win in the end.

What is the desired outcome? And why would you care if it's plugged in?

 

[Skip Miller]

Can you calculate how much this 24/7/365 heater is costing you? And when is the lease up for renewal?

I would leave the guy alone. He is within the terms of the lease leaving it on. You may think he is stupid to do this, but "stupid" is not forbidden by your lease terms. And there is no fixing stupid.

When the lease is up, raise the rent to recoup the electricity cost going forward.

-Skip

 

[SleeperRX7]

After 12 years, I suspect that any moisture left from running the engine has evaporated.
Keeping it warm would have two effects - warmer = faster corrosion, but warmer also reduces the relative humidity and chance of condensation. Not sure which will win in the end.

What is the desired outcome? And why would you care if it's plugged in?

Its just not monitored enough and a possible fire hazard given the age. Other hangar tenants are nervous as well.

 

[SleeperRX7]

Can you calculate how much this 24/7/365 heater is costing you? And when is the lease up for renewal?

I would leave the guy alone. He is within the terms of the lease leaving it on. You may think he is stupid to do this, but "stupid" is not forbidden by your lease terms. And there is no fixing stupid.

When the lease is up, raise the rent to recoup the electricity cost going forward.

-Skip

Its just not monitored enough and a possible fire hazard given the age. Other hangar tenants are nervous as well. I cant risk losing other active flying aircraft.

 

[GRG55]

Build the power cost into his rent.

Why would this suddenly become a fire hazard now if it's been going on 24/7/365?
.
.
.
...And what is it about owning an airplane that makes some people so weird? Won't fly it, won't sell it, just let it deteriorate for years. Seems to be a story repeated at airports everywhere.

 

[SleeperRX7]

Build the power cost into his rent.

Why would this suddenly become a fire hazard now if it's been going on 24/7/365?
.
.
.
...And what is it about owning an airplane that makes some people so weird? Won't fly it, won't sell it, just let it deteriorate for years. Seems to be a story repeated at airports everywhere.

We discovered it several years ago during hangar maintenance we conduct once a year. We discovered a cabin heater on 24/7/365 as well. The owner did unplug that, but not the engine. We have been trying to work with him to prove his efforts to preserve the engine may be futile. It just doesn't make any sense to anyone. The hangar was packed with combustibles as well. Mice were rampant. What if they chewed through a wire and caused a short leading to a fire...........................I used to work a at a car dealership and replaced many wiring harnesses to to rodent intrusion, blown fuses, etc.

 

[steingar]

Sure am tired of the "Plane hasn't flown in a month, time to send it to the scrap yard" rhetoric around here. (obvious hyperbole, but you get the point)

Sorry, but it's very easy to get upside down on relics in this day and age. Their owners all think they're treasures, and often want top dollar for them. I've seen it over and over again. I've also seen what it take stop restore these aircraft to flightworthy status, and it isn't for the feint of heart or wallet.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

After 12 years, I suspect that any moisture left from running the engine has evaporated.
Keeping it warm would have two effects - warmer = faster corrosion, but warmer also reduces the relative humidity and chance of condensation. Not sure which will win in the end.

What is the desired outcome? And why would you care if it's plugged in?

I have a heater burning in my gun safe 24/7/365. Never a hint of rust on anything. I believe that if you prevent water from condensing you are better off than the heat/cool cycle that can destroy virtually anything.

 

[Skip Miller]

Does the owner have an A&P he trusts? Have the A&P talk to him. Likely the A&P hasn't seen the plane for years but you never know...

-Skip

 

[SkyDog58]

So how much is 12 years of hangar rent? Whatever the answer, I bet it’s more than I would spend on a plane that’s not being flown. And when you add in the fact the aircraft value has to be far less than it would be if it was maintained, it’s one huge waste of money.

Why doesn’t he fly it? Did the guy lose his medical due to mental deficiency?

 

[GRG55]

We discovered it several years ago during hangar maintenance we conduct once a year. We discovered a cabin heater on 24/7/365 as well. The owner did unplug that, but not the engine. We have been trying to work with him to prove his efforts to preserve the engine may be futile. It just doesn't make any sense to anyone. The hangar was packed with combustibles as well. Mice were rampant. What if they chewed through a wire and caused a short leading to a fire...........................I used to work a at a car dealership and replaced many wiring harnesses to to rodent intrusion, blown fuses, etc.

Rodents are often a big issue around hangars. All the wiring in our hangars is either metal jacket, or in metal conduit, but a lot of the older T-hangars at our airport had wiring run after they were built, and none of it was intended for high loads (mostly a single light per bay, on a common circuit). Sounds like you might need to change your tenancy agreements.

It's unfortunate to hear about a Tiger left to deteriorate like that. Someone is dreaming.

 

[GRG55]

Sorry, but it's very easy to get upside down on relics in this day and age. Their owners all think they're treasures, and often want top dollar for them. I've seen it over and over again. I've also seen what it take stop restore these aircraft to flightworthy status, and it isn't for the feint of heart or wallet.

Bringing an airplane back to sound condition is never an economic proposition. Even one that is flying can still be quite a task to maintain in sound condition, as I am certain most of us here who own planes can attest.

This week alone on the Husky I've had to change a wing tank fuel drain that would not re-seat, and I'm getting symptoms the contacts on the master solenoid have arced enough it will have to be changed. And it's only a 1996, which is "brand new" by my standards, but seems every month there's "care & feeding" taxes that have to be paid. Don't even get me started on the age related work that went into the Aztec this year. I am thinking about doing a post similar to the one @Mtns2Skies did about his 180, just to vent.

 

[Sinistar]

I would think its time you propagate in a new rental policy and at least limit block heater usage to certain months or if a temp will go below X. But even if you do that and unplug it each time you inspect he will probably just plug it back in again. Unfortunately, unless you do some re-wiring and/or separate meters you can't really stop it and the new wiring and meters will easily exceed his heating costs per month. Also, if you are unplugging it on him he could argue you damaged the engine...I could easily see a jury lawsuit going to him as all the non-pilots would think keeping an engine warm would be better for it.

Dumb question: Is the heater actually using any current when the temperature is warm enough outside?

Although it would not be "official" perhaps you could install clamp-around current meters on his line to actually figure out how much he is using.

I think the real issue is having hangar policies that allow decrepit planes from being in the hangar. Perhaps you should require the plane to be in annual and demonstrate a flight once a year to continue renting. If they miss the year mark they get 3 months or they are out. Or maybe each year they miss that mark their rent doubles. You want them to be able to do some major mx once in a while but not 12yrs of not moving an inch. The home built planes are more complex as the can take several years to build but maybe their rent should be higher as a motivation to get it done and then get back into the normal rental category.

I keep wanting to buy a hangar and rent out to offset the cost and situations like yours seem like such a huge PITA. There has been a plane next to ours for 10yrs and I have never seen the people. I look over the wall and thankfully I just see more dust and not more junk being hauled in. The inspector goes in once a month to check the fire extinguisher and any fuel can violations. There is a 182 in our next hangar block with the wheels sunk way into the mud and hasn't moved in years. To me that is two hangars that someone who loves to fly would be very happy to have.

 

[murphey]

We discovered it several years ago during hangar maintenance we conduct once a year. We discovered a cabin heater on 24/7/365 as well. The owner did unplug that, but not the engine. We have been trying to work with him to prove his efforts to preserve the engine may be futile. It just doesn't make any sense to anyone. The hangar was packed with combustibles as well. Mice were rampant. What if they chewed through a wire and caused a short leading to a fire...........................I used to work a at a car dealership and replaced many wiring harnesses to to rodent intrusion, blown fuses, etc.

I'm in a county hangar at FTG, and we have a similar situation with the electric meter. Well, the problem isn't the meter, it's the inadequate power...if I turn on the power saw, all the lights dim in the group of 8 hangars. If two of us have heavy power consumption equipment turned on at the same time, we can blow the breakers. So we try not to keep a lot of stuff plugged in all the time.

Who has final authority over the airport and hangars? Altho FTG is a public airport, it's owned by the county, and county rules, as long as they don't contradict FAA rules, can be enforced. For example, hangars cannot be used for non-aviation storage. If there's an aviation vehicle, regardless of condition (being built, etc) it's ok. Wish the airport was more strict about this - there are 2 county hangars across from me that are used to store boats, plumbing equipment, etc. As for aviation? A very small corner of one hangar has pieces of a helicopter, so the renters are in compliance.

All the hangars get a yearly inspection regardless of ownership (county or private) for fire extinguishers, hazardous materials, etc. The airport or the local authority could do an inspection (but all hangars must be inspected, no playing favorites) and if a hazardous situation is discovered, the tenant is responsible for correcting the problem or they are in violation of authority rules and possibly the lease, if the lease is written that way. This might be one way to get the tenant to clean up the hangar.

 

[steingar]

Bringing an airplane back to sound condition is never an economic proposition. Even one that is flying can still be quite a task to maintain in sound condition, as I am certain most of us here who own planes can attest.

I won't disagree in the slightest. I'm probably upside down on mine, but at least its been in dribs and drabs. No doubt it will keep coming. A real major problem with bringing relics back to life is they can have fatal problems. Good example is the spar cap on the Mooney, if it gets corroded the repair is both difficult and expensive, and is usually a Mooney killer. I think the same is true for the overhead spar in 177s. You might not find everything you have to fix when you get your relic, and there might be quite a lot. And since your relic is certificated you have to use airplane parts, all of which cost $$$'s. Like I said, not for the feint of heart or wallet.

 

[SleeperRX7]

Thank you everyone for the great information. I didn't expect so many replies!

 

[MauleSkinner]

We discovered it several years ago during hangar maintenance we conduct once a year. We discovered a cabin heater on 24/7/365 as well. The owner did unplug that, but not the engine. We have been trying to work with him to prove his efforts to preserve the engine may be futile. It just doesn't make any sense to anyone. The hangar was packed with combustibles as well. Mice were rampant. What if they chewed through a wire and caused a short leading to a fire...........................I used to work a at a car dealership and replaced many wiring harnesses to to rodent intrusion, blown fuses, etc.

If fire is the concern, figure out what the lease says about fire hazards and get the fire marshall out there. Otherwise, I don't see any way to change the owner's mind (or reason to, for that matter).

 

[SleeperRX7]

I would think its time you propagate in a new rental policy and at least limit block heater usage to certain months or if a temp will go below X. But even if you do that and unplug it each time you inspect he will probably just plug it back in again. Unfortunately, unless you do some re-wiring and/or separate meters you can't really stop it and the new wiring and meters will easily exceed his heating costs per month. Also, if you are unplugging it on him he could argue you damaged the engine...I could easily see a jury lawsuit going to him as all the non-pilots would think keeping an engine warm would be better for it.

Dumb question: Is the heater actually using any current when the temperature is warm enough outside?

Although it would not be "official" perhaps you could install clamp-around current meters on his line to actually figure out how much he is using.

I think the real issue is having hangar policies that allow decrepit planes from being in the hangar. Perhaps you should require the plane to be in annual and demonstrate a flight once a year to continue renting. If they miss the year mark they get 3 months or they are out. Or maybe each year they miss that mark their rent doubles. You want them to be able to do some major mx once in a while but not 12yrs of not moving an inch. The home built planes are more complex as the can take several years to build but maybe their rent should be higher as a motivation to get it done and then get back into the normal rental category.

I keep wanting to buy a hangar and rent out to offset the cost and situations like yours seem like such a huge PITA. There has been a plane next to ours for 10yrs and I have never seen the people. I look over the wall and thankfully I just see more dust and not more junk being hauled in. The inspector goes in once a month to check the fire extinguisher and any fuel can violations. There is a 182 in our next hangar block with the wheels sunk way into the mud and hasn't moved in years. To me that is two hangars that someone who loves to fly would be very happy to have.

Dumb question: Is the heater actually using any current when the temperature is warm enough outside?------------------Yes, the heater is cooking. You can feel the heat rising out (considerably) when you open the oil fill/dip stick hatch. We have the Fire Marshall on our side. Also we are very aware of the hangar use policies the FAA has put in place for airport sponsors who receive FAA federal funding. That information was mailed out to the hangar tenant. Its terrible every airport seems to have one or more of these type of ill aircraft.

 

[Sam D]

As @murphey says. If your airport is subject to FAA grant assurances, you could head down the avenue of non-compliance with FAA requirements. But it seems like that would be a last-resort thing.

II. Standards for Aeronautical Use of Hangars a. Hangars located on airport property must be used for an aeronautical purpose, or be available for use for an aeronautical purpose, unless otherwise approved by the FAA Office of Airports as described in Section III. b. Aeronautical uses for hangars include: 1. Storage of active aircraft. 2. Final assembly of aircraft under construction. 3. Non-commercial construction of amateur-built or kit-built aircraft. 4. Maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of nonoperational aircraft. 5. Storage of aircraft handling equipment, e.g., towbars, glider tow equipment, workbenches, and tools and materials used in the servicing, maintenance, repair or outfitting of aircraft.

Edit: I see you already addressed this...

 

[SkyDog58]

As @murphey says. If your airport is subject to FAA grant assurances, you could head down the avenue of non-compliance with FAA requirements. But it seems like that would be a last-resort thing.



Edit: I see you already addressed this...

It’s been 12 years. I’d think the airport manager would have taken action based on #1 and/or #4 after just two or three years... if that long.

1. Storage of active aircraft.
4. Maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of nonoperational aircraft.

And no, it needn’t be a last resort.

 

[Sinistar]

II. Standards for Aeronautical Use of Hangars a. Hangars located on airport property must be used for an aeronautical purpose, or be available for use for an aeronautical purpose, unless otherwise approved by the FAA Office of Airports as described in Section III. b. Aeronautical uses for hangars include: 1. Storage of active aircraft. 2. Final assembly of aircraft under construction. 3. Non-commercial construction of amateur-built or kit-built aircraft. 4. Maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of nonoperational aircraft. 5. Storage of aircraft handling equipment, e.g., towbars, glider tow equipment, workbenches, and tools and materials used in the servicing, maintenance, repair or outfitting of aircraft

Given the FAR doesn't specify the actual criteria I would think each renter could specify that in more detail. So, what is to keep a local airport (city, county, municipal) from doing the following:

A. The tenant indicates which category their rental will fall under from above (1,2,3)
B. The tenant could change this category as needed
C. Price #1 the cheapest and #2 and #3 the highest.

For #1 (Active Aircraft)
Require them to provide proof of a annual and demonstrate a test flight once year. This is the cheapest rental and will not result in any penalties or adjustments per the modern contract. You can enter the initial rental agreement in this category.

For #2 (Final Assembly)
Until the unit is returned to #1 (Active) status, rent will significantly increase each N months. And after 2 years other renters or people on the waiting list can bid a higher 1st year price to knock them out. Or some way to keep it from turning into a 20yr junk plane scenario at $150/month with crap stored everywhere. You can not enter into a initial rental agreement in this category.

For # 3 (Home/Kit Builds)
Perhaps come up with like 5 major demonstrated milestones (I'm reaching here) and if they fall behind it becomes like #2. You really want to give this group a lot of latitude but at the same time I have seen planes in this category also turn into 10yr projects that never complete. Fortunately the ones I have seen are in privately owned hangars so that is their business. Maybe they have to demonstrate Wings attached, all control surfaces working, motor installed, outdoor run-up, test flight. You can enter into a initial rental agreement in this category. It would turn into #1 when completed.

...the basic goal of #2 and #3 is clearly define that they have entered the "not the indefinite storage of nonoperational aircraft" and they have a way out but if they drag their feet the rental prices will eventually hurt enough to get them out of there or generate a ton of $$$ for the airport.

For 5 (What Can Be In the Hangar)
Provide a clear list of what is not allowed. If you are okay with people storing Harley's or cars or boats inside, cool...don't add them to this list. If you don;t want them or want to limit to just a certain amount...add it to the list. Have a pretty clear penalty for violating this. If your airport just wants planes inside and not cars then make the penalty more than what it would cost to the store the car somewhere else...they will move it fairly quickly. But more importantly, the new renter will see all this stuff and know in advance what its going to cost them.

...the bummer is the enforcement costs and all the little loopholes that people would find. But if you could close off a lot of them I bet it would open up at least 1 city/rental hangar out of every 10.

 

[Rgbeard]

I can identify with this.

My dad stopped flying just over fifteen years ago, when he let the plane lapse out of annual, and never "found" the money to get it back current.

Fifteen days becomes fifteen years.

The company from whom he bought the plane, came out, and trucked it to their facility. They'll get it airworthy again, and get it sold. I don't know how much (any) money he'll get when the transaction is done. He is hopeful for a very small 6-digit number. I'm thinking a very small 5-digit one!

In the mean time, he turned down several really generous offers from people to buy the plane, knowing it wouldn't take much (at that time) to get it airworthy.

Sigh.......