Emergency exit question - especially for Cherokee pilots

LoLPilot

LoLPilot

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LoLPilot
Most forums need the member who asks random, off the wall questions, and I like to think I fill that need here. So here goes:

Earlier this year I joined a flying club that has a couple of PA-28 designs and a couple of 172's. This was my introduction to flying Cherokee-types, other than a few hours in a friend's. I was wondering about their safety relative to a 172 in something like an off-airport forced landing. In case of overturning from the nosewheel digging into the dirt, is the high wing with the two car-style doors a better design? If I look at the Cherokee's single door correctly, it seems that if you overturn the airplane it's wedged shut. Or am I incorrect about that? I've seen crash axes on pilot supply websites - is that something any of you have added to your flight bag, or would chopping your way through a windshield be impossible?
 
During an emergency landing while on short final you should pop the door loose so that it doesn't jamb in an accident. Not sure how easy that would be in a Cherokee ...
 
I have a glass hammer in the glove box in the canopy planes I fly.
Don't ask me to prove their worth in an actual accident scenario though.
 
Daleandee said:
During an emergency landing while on short final you should pop the door loose so that it doesn't jamb in an accident. Not sure how easy that would be in a Cherokee ...
Click to expand...
Yeah I've wondered about that too, because I know that is what is taught in the forced landing procedure for high wing Cessnas.
 
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Daleandee said:
Among us Sonex builders the joke is that the best way to break the canopy is with one of these:



View attachment 122566
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Yeah, the issue is not knowing the canopy materials of different LSA that I fly and which of them are actually breakable by an [upside-down] human :(

There's a non-zero number of times where I've laid awake at 3am imagining a nose-over in a field and fuel rapidly saturating the ground around me... not a pleasant thought.
 
Well it is clear you never have had an improperly latched PA 28 door pop open on takeoff. The door is hard to close due to the ram air flow around the airframe.

Once you have finished your emergency landing sequence, it is possible that egress will be difficult due to bending of the fuselage or doors. If I remember correctly, unlatching the door is part of the emergency landing checklist.

-Skip
 
A few years I was tying up my plane after a flight when a piper crash landed on the runway. They glided in straight & level but were not lined up with the runway. Touched down hard, all 3 landing gear broke off on impact, then slid on the belly into a large ditch running parallel to the runway. I ran over and was first on site. The R wing was broken and mashed vertical, obstructing the door. The people were stuck inside. Even if they had unlatched the door on approach, they would have still been stuck. Good thing there was no fire. I dragged the wing away to open the door and help the people exit the airplane.

I think the 172 has a few safety and practical advantages over the low wing pipers. Having 2 doors is not only convenient, but better for emergency egress. The high wing is more out of the way landing on turf or gravel, and provides shelter for camping. High wing means gravity fed fuel and no fuel pump needed, neither electrical nor mechanical, nor any tank switching.

Also with a 172, if both doors are inaccessible most adults (if not of excessive girth) can fit through the baggage door.
 
Remember the baggage door is an auxiliary escape hatch and can be opened on the inside.
 
Many years ago I assisted a CFI and student egress an upside down 150, or 152, I don't recall. I got the window open, unhooked the brace to get it fully opened. I told them to NOT unfasten their belts, which they both promptly unfastened their belts and fell into a heap.

It took some wiggling, cursing and gnashing of teeth but both got out as gracefully as a person can exit an upside down Cessna.

Since it wasn't an emergency landing*, the door latches were not unlatched, and refused to open without tearing the plane apart.

I was thinking the whole time I am glad this isn't a low wing...

*It was a very windy, gusty day, and the wind took the plane off the runway into the drainage ditch after landing.
 
Having known a pilot who had to get out of his 185 through the baggage door because he came to rest inverted, I don’t think there’s a lot of safety difference there.
Daleandee said:
During an emergency landing while on short final you should pop the door loose so that it doesn't jamb in an accident. Not sure how easy that would be in a Cherokee ...
Click to expand...
I’d be doing that way before short final.
 
It is my understanding that you can kick out any of the windows and also kick through the aluminum skin of the cherokee if necessary.

wrt opening the cherokee door while still airborne: open it and then engage the lock to reduce the chance of the door slamming shut and being wedged closed.
 
Daleandee said:
During an emergency landing while on short final you should pop the door loose so that it doesn't jamb in an accident. Not sure how easy that would be in a Cherokee ...
Click to expand...

PA28 doors will "pop-open" quite nicely, in an emergency or otherwise.

As far as the "Crash Axe" goes, I suspect that if it is properly secured (so as not to bash the pilot open before the pilot can bash anything else) then it will be of little use in the kind of scenario you describe.
 
True story. In my younger days I had an engine out in a Cherokee 140. The plane landed on the mains, but flipped over In a field of soft earth. I was able to push the door open and remove myself from the aircraft, but I do agree with the idea of popping the door open following an engine failure, and if you have the time to think about it, wedging something in the door to keep it from slamming back shut . This is part of my pre-takeoff brief to any passengers.
 
Thanks for the input! The club instructor did tell me to give the door a whack with my hand on the Piper before takeoff to make sure the latches were engaged. I had just assumed that with the way it opened and with the two latches it would be difficult to open once the plane was moving. I did NOT know that you could open the baggage door from the inside. I've climbed through the baggage door to get into a 172 that had a malfunctioning outside door handle so I know I can fit through a Skyhawk baggage door! But yeah the upside down with obstructed exit and being trapped in the plane is something I've thought about before and I am, in a way, glad to hear that I'm not the only person who has had some trepidation about that.
 
Baked Potato said:
I have a glass hammer in the glove box in the canopy planes I fly.
Don't ask me to prove their worth in an actual accident scenario though.
Click to expand...

That would be a nice tool...except most of the canopy airplanes I've seen are some form of plexi and not actual glass. You can probably bang away enough to crack it, but it is not going to perform like it was meant to on a tempered glass window in a car which would shatter out completely. For what its worth, most GA aircraft windows are plexi of various strengths (or weaknesses). If you have the ability to move much at all, a foot or elbow properly applied with force should bust it out.

Zeldman said:
Since it wasn't an emergency landing*, the door latches were not unlatched, and refused to open without tearing the plane apart.
Click to expand...

The airplane was upside down? Tear it apart! It is probably the insurance companies airplane now, and getting the occupants out is much more important.

Most non pressurized GA airplanes are pretty lightweight construction. The door latches are usually easily forced, and the windows are thin plexi. When I teach aircraft extrication to city firefighters I stress that it isn't the cutting in that is difficult. Modern extrication tools will make quick work of the thin aluminum and composites most common. Compared to modern cars its relatively easy, no high strength high carbon steel. The biggest issue is safety, not cutting into hidden fuel lines, electrical lines, oxygen, etc.
 
So I just replaced a front windshield in a Cessna 172. We decided for giggles that we would break it out just to see how hard it would be.

You better hope the crash breaks it! A hammer kept bouncing right off…. Crescent Wrench, bounced right off, flat head screw driver, nope…

We also tried the foot method from inside, 2 guys… Didn’t budge enough to pop loose.

Finally just took a big hole saw to the middle then removed it from there. That dude was tough!
 
Skymac said:
So I just replaced a front windshield in a Cessna 172. We decided for giggles that we would break it out just to see how hard it would be.

You better hope the crash breaks it! A hammer kept bouncing right off…. Crescent Wrench, bounced right off, flat head screw driver, nope…

We also tried the foot method from inside, 2 guys… Didn’t budge enough to pop loose.

Finally just took a big hole saw to the middle then removed it from there. That dude was tough!
Click to expand...
Thats kind of why they use plexiglass for windshields. ;)

did you try close to the edges where it’s more rigid, or just in the middle?

the OP mentioned crash axes…as far as airplanes are concerned, they’re really can openers for breaking through aluminum portions of the airframe, not for getting through glass or plexiglass. And my understanding is they’re pretty much worthless for carbon fiber.
 
I always figured that a low wing would be less likely to flip than a high wing, given the lower center of gravity. And I like the fuel below me...as long as everything is right side up, that is. But if I could pick from the planes I've flown to have an off-airport landing in, it would be a high wing, a cub with shoulder belts. Because 37 mph stall speed, tubular steel frame, and a door that's really easy to keep open.

Any stats on likelihood of PA-28 vs 172 on staying upright on off airport landing, either on land or water?
 
Skymac said:
So I just replaced a front windshield in a Cessna 172. We decided for giggles that we would break it out just to see how hard it would be.
Click to expand...
Side windows. Much thinner and frames are not as robust. @SixPapaCharlie did a video on breaking plexi windows, think it resisted all except gunfire.
 
I've crawled in through the baggage door of an Archer once.
 
midwestpa24 said:
The airplane was upside down? Tear it apart! It is probably the insurance companies airplane now, and getting the occupants out is much more important.
Click to expand...

You are correct. If the plane had been wadded up in a ball, or any injuries, or on fire or close to being on fire or even a fuel leak I would not have been so gentle. As it sat I determined the danger was over.

Both occupants got out and a few minutes later the plane was righted and towed into the shop. After an engine and prop change, repair the damage to the top of the tail and the plane was flying again in a month.
 
Bill said:
Remember the baggage door is an auxiliary escape hatch and can be opened on the inside.
Click to expand...

On a Piper? I don’t have an inside latch on my 182P.

Side-note: On my plane you can rock the wings hard and the locked door will come open. If I park somewhere overnight I’ll climb through my baggage door to latch the door from the inside, then lock it on the outside. If it’s just windy but not staying overnight, I’ll leave the window open and reach in and latch it but not lock it.
 
Baked Potato said:
I have a glass hammer in the glove box in the canopy planes I fly.
Don't ask me to prove their worth in an actual accident scenario though.
Click to expand...
Those don't work so well on plastic windows. They are designed to shatter a tempered glass side window in a car.

In the USAF, there was a canopy breaker tool. You held it in one hand, with your other hand cupping the base, and the curved part TOWARDS you (so if is did not penetrate and slipped, it angled away from your face), then strike up against the canopy

1700675571339.png
 
Baked Potato said:
I have a glass hammer in the glove box in the canopy planes I fly.
Click to expand...
And that will do what to the acrylic windows in an airplane?

It works fine in the non-windshield windows in a car because they're tempered glass and a sharp blow to one corner will shatter the whole thing.
 
There is an STC for Pipers and other single door aircraft to put the pilot side window on a hinge, specifically for the purpose of this thread. I fully intend to do this to my Cherokee when time permits, as the thought of emergency egress is one of the drawbacks I have against this plane.

ellis-assoc.com

Ellis & Associates

ellis-assoc.com ellis-assoc.com
 
Cessna 310 has a emergency exit rear window left side unless someone seals it to stop it from leaking air in flight.
 
Different kind of plane, but a Cirrus comes with an 8-ounce ball-peen hammer, which is stashed between the front seats. You're supposed to whack the window not in its middle, but on its corners, according to the placard on the window:

EMERGENCY EXIT​
REMOVE EGRESS HAMMER FROM ARMREST LID​
STRIKE CORNER OF WINDOW,​
KICK OR PUSH OUT AFTER FRACTURING​

Not sure if the same would apply to a different airplane with a metal airframe. A Cirrus airframe is composite that's held together by glue, and glue is how the plexiglas is held in place.

About the doors, the POH devotes an impressive 2 1/2 pages to discuss whether to unlatch them before an emergency landing. It suggests a default choice of leaving both doors latched, but it suggests some leeway, that maybe it's better to unlatch the co-pilot door in several scenarios including fire, water landing, or if the co-pilot seat is unoccupied. These instructions are written without a definitive statement of what's safest, because Cirrus didn't perform crash tests in various situations to see what would actually work best.
 
NoHeat said:
Different kind of plane, but a Cirrus comes with an 8-ounce ball-peen hammer, which is stashed between the front seats. You're supposed to whack the window not in its middle, but on its corners, according to the placard on the window:

EMERGENCY EXIT​
REMOVE EGRESS HAMMER FROM ARMREST LID​
STRIKE CORNER OF WINDOW,​
KICK OR PUSH OUT AFTER FRACTURING​

Not sure if the same would apply to a different airplane with a metal airframe. A Cirrus airframe is composite that's held together by glue, and glue is how the plexiglas is held in place.

About the doors, the POH devotes an impressive 2 1/2 pages to discuss whether to unlatch them before an emergency landing. It suggests a default choice of leaving both doors latched, but it suggests some leeway, that maybe it's better to unlatch the co-pilot door in several scenarios including fire, water landing, or if the co-pilot seat is unoccupied. These instructions are written without a definitive statement of what's safest, because Cirrus didn't perform crash tests in various situations to see what would actually work best.
Click to expand...

Just a ruse to keep you distracted from your dire circumstances. A small kindness from the good folks at Cirrus, I suppose.
 
That is interesting about Cirrus. I would imagine that the lack of a definitive "yes" or "no" to unlatching the door is to shield the company from liability, but I think it's telling that they devote several pages of the manual to it.

I've watched the windshield being removed from a 172 and it took two fully grown men kicking it from the inside to break it out, and it took them a while to get it. Interesting to know about the side windows, and very interesting to note about the STC.

Didn't somebody do a video a while back with a non-airworthy airframe where they destroyed it piece by piece to see how difficult different parts were to break through?
 
Over 50yrs ago there was a Beech Musketeer departing KAUG, Augusta Maine. On departure the engine failed. Now Augusta sits on a flattened hill top. The pilot was able to get turned around but did not have the altitude to land on the runway. He landed along the slope of the hillside, but a main gear dropped into a hole. It bounced out of the hole and put the airplane up on a wing tip. The pilot, all alone was partway out the door when the aircraft collapsed on the lower wing starting a fire. Though badly burned he survived and continued flying. He was the flight school owner and DPE. He commented that if anyone had been with him, he would not have gotten clear of the aircraft and resulting fire. I believe the early Musketeers only had one door on the right side like the PA-28s. Later models had two doors.
 
Last edited:
LoLPilot said:
Most forums need the member who asks random, off the wall questions, and I like to think I fill that need here. So here goes:

Earlier this year I joined a flying club that has a couple of PA-28 designs and a couple of 172's. This was my introduction to flying Cherokee-types, other than a few hours in a friend's. I was wondering about their safety relative to a 172 in something like an off-airport forced landing. In case of overturning from the nosewheel digging into the dirt, is the high wing with the two car-style doors a better design? If I look at the Cherokee's single door correctly, it seems that if you overturn the airplane it's wedged shut. Or am I incorrect about that? I've seen crash axes on pilot supply websites - is that something any of you have added to your flight bag, or would chopping your way through a windshield be impossible?
Click to expand...

Kick out the plastic windows used for the windshield or side windows. They are thin plastic.
 
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