Eclipse 500 for "only" $550k?

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LoneAspen

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LoneAspen
Some of the earlier ones are in need of updating that exceeds the value of the plane. Some dont have known icing, some have cobbled together autopilot installations. After all the checks are written, the 'cheap' early model has a price comparable to a newer one.
 
I think you have to spend another $400-500K to bring to its full glory (FIKI, updated avionics, etc). But then you may have a $1.2 mln aircraft. Sounds like a very good deal.
 
olasek said:
I think you have to spend another $400-500K to bring to its full glory (FIKI, updated avionics, etc). But then you may have a $1.2 mln aircraft. Sounds like a very good deal.
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Regrettably, it's not as simple as that. This plane has several significant issues.

This is an Avidyne Eclipse, non-ETT, one of the very small number of planes remaining in the category (most of the 38 built like this have been upgraded). Eclipse Aerospace (who took over the assets of bankrupt Eclipse Aviation) stopped supporting these planes as of March 31, 2013. You can still get them worked on, but there are some parts unique to these planes that are no longer available.

As you noted, it's not FIKI. It also has no GPS for navigation (the ad says it has GPS, but you can't navigate with it), and it's limited by AD to 30,000 feet.

You can fix the 30,000 foot limitation, but you can't just pay a little money to make the plane FIKI. It can only become FIKI through a major upgrade that would entail adding new tip tanks and other structural modifications as well as removing the avionics and replacing them with all new ones. I believe they're not offering that upgrade any more (though maybe they'd do a special deal for it). When it was last offered, as I recall it was over $1 million because it is such a big upgrade.

The Eclipse is a great plane, but the fleet suffers from having several different versions, and that makes it tough for a potential buyer to know what he's getting without assistance from somebody that really knows these planes. This is a bit of a "gotcha" plane in that regard.

All that said, these early un-upgraded Eclipse 500's represent an amazing value for the right buyer who can understand and work around the limitations of an un-upgraded Eclipse. Where else can you get a personal jet with just 100 hours on it that burns about as much fuel mile per mile as a twin Cessna and pay only a half million for it?

Ken
 
KTMeyer said:
All that said, these early un-upgraded Eclipse 500's represent an amazing value for the right buyer who can understand and work around the limitations of an un-upgraded Eclipse. Where else can you get a personal jet with just 100 hours on it that burns about as much fuel mile per mile as a twin Cessna and pay only a half million for it?
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I think 'working around the limitations' involves operating the plane in south america.

The engines alone should be worth about the asking price for the ship ? Sell off a couple of the 'one-of' parts and hang the carcass upside down under the ceiling of an aviation themed restaurant.
 
It would be fun just to fly a jet VFR and burn holes in the sky up to FL18. :lol:
 
Geico266 said:
It would be fun just to fly a jet VFR and burn holes in the sky up to FL18. :lol:
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You're right! It is a blast to hand-fly this jet VFR. But it is also an awesome experience to be flying up high:

11212440526_0cd5070675_o.jpg


The plane in question--the $550 K Eclipse--can fly up to 41,000 feet if it gets a little work. It would need RVSM approval (the plane's got group approval already, so it's mostly a paperwork exercise). And it would likely need new engine liners to get over the 30,000 foot AD limitation.

Ken
 
Still seems like a great value even without FIKI and limited to under FL300. You won't get either of those things either in a new SR22. If I was in the market for a new cirrus or Cessna TTx I would look long and hard at this.


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Tmpendergrass said:
Still seems like a great value even without FIKI and limited to under FL300. You won't get either of those things either in a new SR22. If I was in the market for a new cirrus or Cessna TTx I would look long and hard at this.


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I thought the SR-22 was available FIKI?
 
KTMeyer said:
You're right! It is a blast to hand-fly this jet VFR. But it is also an awesome experience to be flying up high
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Unless you need to be up high I think it's only awesome as a novelty that will wear off soon. Many more interesting things to see down low.
 
Everskyward said:
Unless you need to be up high I think it's only awesome as a novelty that will wear off soon. Many more interesting things to see down low.
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Hasn't worn off yet for me, but I agree there's a lot to be said for flying low.

OTOH, this jet, like others, is intended to be a traveling machine, and you can't travel very far in it if you stay below 18,000 feet. Also, one of the big draws of a jet is the ability to top weather. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the lack of FIKI in this plane (it will limit you, but not that much) UNLESS you also say that you can't fly it high. The combination of no-FIKI and no high flight would mean very little winter flying.

Ken
 
KTMeyer said:
As you noted, it's not FIKI. It also has no GPS for navigation (the ad says it has GPS, but you can't navigate with it), and it's limited by AD to 30,000 feet.
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How could an airplane built in 2007 and equipped with GPS not use them to navigate? Are there no database updates? Couldn't you just add a modern IFR GPS?
 
KTMeyer said:
Also, one of the big draws of a jet is the ability to top weather.
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But in many cases to top weather you need to fly through it which this airplane couldn't do on a regular basis.

Plus, what happens when you need parts for it? I haven't been following the Eclipse story but it seems that it is a problem with orphan planes where not many were built.
 
alfadog said:
How could an airplane built in 2007 and equipped with GPS not use them to navigate? Are there no database updates? Couldn't you just add a modern IFR GPS?
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That early Eclipse was delivered with two very nice GPS sensors that do absolutely nothing but generate synthetic DME. The FMS "frontend" that was supposed to integrate them (so you could navigate by them) was never finished.

Some owners have installed an after-market Garmin 400W; that works nicely but can't be integrated into the PFD without a major upgrade that isn't offered any more. But you could easily mount a CDI and you're good to go. There are some regulatory hurdles in installing a GPS that you wouldn't have with most other planes, but it's been done by a number of owners and makes for a very usable aircraft platform.

Ken
 
KTMeyer said:
That early Eclipse was delivered with two very nice GPS sensors that do absolutely nothing but generate synthetic DME. The FMS "frontend" that was supposed to integrate them (so you could navigate by them) was never finished.

Some owners have installed an after-market Garmin 400W; that works nicely but can't be integrated into the PFD without a major upgrade that isn't offered any more. But you could easily mount a CDI and you're good to go. There are some regulatory hurdles in installing a GPS that you wouldn't have with most other planes, but it's been done by a number of owners and makes for a very usable aircraft platform.

Ken
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Got it, thanks. My guess is that most folks that could afford this airplane along with attendant costs would not be interested in the level of jury-rigging of avionics and sub-par performance as regard FIKI and altitude. For folks like me that can't afford it anyway, it looks nice.
 
Everskyward said:
But in many cases to top weather you need to fly through it which this airplane couldn't do on a regular basis.
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Mine lacked FIKI the first two years I owned it (until early 2010), and I was surprised how *infrequently* the lack of FIKI became an issue. Basically, the plane blows through any icing layer on climbout and cruises over the icing. You do have to be very careful about planning an arrival to a destination that might entail icing.

Plus, what happens when you need parts for it? I haven't been following the Eclipse story but it seems that it is a problem with orphan planes where not many were built.
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The *fleet* isn't orphaned; just the small number of non-upgraded planes is. Those planes still mostly use the same parts as the upgraded planes (for which every part is available). The issue is that some of the things in the early planes (PFD and MFD for instance) are just not available as replacement parts. For those parts, you'd need to depend on salvage parts, overhaul, etc etc.

And if an AD came along that only affected the non-upgraded planes, the current custodian of the type certificate has said it will not devote resources to resolving it.

Ken
 
alfadog said:
Got it, thanks. My guess is that most folks that could afford this airplane along with attendant costs would not be interested in the level of jury-rigging of avionics and sub-par performance as regard FIKI and altitude. For folks like me that can't afford it anyway, it looks nice.
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Just because people are rich doesn't mean they're not cheap.
 
KTMeyer said:
Mine lacked FIKI the first two years I owned it (until early 2010), and I was surprised how *infrequently* the lack of FIKI became an issue. Basically, the plane blows through any icing layer on climbout and cruises over the icing. You do have to be very careful about planning an arrival to a destination that might entail icing.

The *fleet* isn't orphaned; just the small number of non-upgraded planes is. Those planes still mostly use the same parts as the upgraded planes (for which every part is available). The issue is that some of the things in the early planes (PFD and MFD for instance) are just not available as replacement parts. For those parts, you'd need to depend on salvage parts, overhaul, etc etc.

And if an AD came along that only affected the non-upgraded planes, the current custodian of the type certificate has said it will not devote resources to resolving it.

Ken
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Can you retrofit the G-600 GNS-750 system into the plane?
 
KTMeyer said:
Mine lacked FIKI the first two years I owned it (until early 2010), and I was surprised how *infrequently* the lack of FIKI became an issue. Basically, the plane blows through any icing layer on climbout and cruises over the icing. You do have to be very careful about planning an arrival to a destination that might entail icing.
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But I see that you are from AZ which probably is a factor in your good luck with weather.
 
Henning said:
Can you retrofit the G-600 GNS-750 system into the plane?
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There's no room for either of those. You'd have to remove something, and I don't think you can get approval for that (I don't know that for a fact, but I can tell you that you have to get the ACO to sign off on a change to the avionics; it's not just a 337 job).

You could put a GTN-650 in where the Garmin 400W lives in this photo:

10476733566_bd3a325e0f_o.jpg


...but truth be told, the 400W works real well in this setup.

Ken
 
Wow - so much great info people posted. Thanks!

I knew there was something I was missing, and the replies bear that out. So much good info about the early planes, their limitations, and upgrade issues.

Of the Eclipse listings with prices shown, there were two in this general ballpark, both 2007 models.

Then, the prices jumped to almost $1.3m for 2008 models. Based on the great info that people posted here, I'm guessing 2008 must have been a transition year where a lot of these issues were addressed, and the fleet is more "modern" and up-to-date.

Oh well. Not that I have half a mil to go buy my own VLJ anyway :)

Thanks again for the great info. I learn something new every time I visit these forums!
 
alfadog said:
How could an airplane built in 2007 and equipped with GPS not use them to navigate? Are there no database updates? Couldn't you just add a modern IFR GPS?
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You can get a G430w for 8k on eBay these days.


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Does anyone have any performance numbers for FL300 vs FL410? Does anyone actually use FL410 in VLJs anyway?


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Tmpendergrass said:
Does anyone actually use FL410 in VLJs anyway?
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Sure. The high thirties are more common though.

Does anyone have any performance numbers for FL300 vs FL410?
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At ISA, maximum continuous thrust and midweight:

FL 300: 371 KTAS on 82 gph
FL 410: 351 KTAS on 51 gph

Those are for the ETT version. The numbers are a little different for the pre-ETT version listed on Controller that we're discussing but I haven't got them handy (the engines are the same, but the fuel scheduling was changed for the ETT version).

You can see right away that performance, especially fuel burn, is very dependent on altitude. Not evident from those numbers, but equally important, is that performance is very dependent on temperature.

Ken
 
For single pilot operations in Eclipse do you have to wear oxygen mask at all time above certain altitude?
 
Tmpendergrass said:
Does anyone have any performance numbers for FL300 vs FL410? Does anyone actually use FL410 in VLJs anyway?
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I don't have any numbers for the Eclipse, but the mid to upper 30's works quite well for fuel economy on a long trip in the Mustang. You will eat up fuel at FL300. It doesn't like FL410 that much though, unlike the larger Citations in the fleet which love FL410 and above.
 
olasek said:
For single pilot operations in Eclipse do you have to wear oxygen mask at all time above certain altitude?
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It's above flight level 350 per FAR 91.211:

No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry with a pressurized cabin -...
At flight altitudes above flight level 350 unless one pilot at the controls of the airplane is wearing and using an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed and that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds 14,000 feet (MSL), except that the one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask while at or below flight level 410 if there are two pilots at the controls and each pilot has a quick-donning type of oxygen mask that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready position within 5 seconds, supplying oxygen and properly secured and sealed.

Since my wife is also typed in the airplane, and the plane has quick-don masks, I virtually never wear a mask when flying the Eclipse. But it's a good point: a solo pilot flying above FL 350 would have the inconvenience of wearing a mask (though *not* the inconvenience of refilling the O2 tank repeatedly--the masks are a diluter demand design that uses almost no O2 unless the cabin depressurizes).

Ken
 
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