Earn private in LSA aircraft? No medical?

bflynn

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
Weird thought prompted by a question in the medical forum. Is it possible to become a light sport pilot, then do all your private training and a private checkride in a light sport aircraft under the sport certificate without having a medical? I'm looking through the private rules and I'm not seeing why not.

61.103 does not mention a medical for eligibility.
The flight proficiency and experience for 61.107 and 109 can be gained through endorsements where needed, but as a sport pilot, you can solo on your own in a LSA airplane
61.113 has a medical requirement in it, but that just means you cannot exercise the privileges of a private certificate.

In the end, you could not fly as a private pilot without getting a medical, but having the private certificate confers some advantages as a sport pilot as well as certain knowledge and skill advantages.
 
what advantages would you have as a private pilot without a medical?
 
Salty said:
what advantages would you have as a private pilot without a medical?
Click to expand...
More and better training, but nothing precludes doing virtually all PP training anyway!
But privileges would be the same as SP.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
But it could never be valid without a medical, right?
Click to expand...
43.7F says "certificate" and you have the certificate even if you don't have the medical.
With a sport pilot certificate, you can return your own SLSA to service, but not a type certificated aircraft that falls under the definition of LSA (e.g. Cub)
 
61.23(a)(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate (iii)When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate.

You can’t do the private test without at least getting a Class III at some point in time.
 
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Salty said:
it's a pretty thin slice of privilege with dubious value, but I'll be darned if you didn't think of one. lol
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LOL...

One other thin slice that I had forgotten about.
61.303 A 2 ii if you have the category and class rating "(1) You do not have to hold any of the endorsements required by this subpart, but you must comply with the limitations in § 61.315."
 
Another advantage is that a private pilot operating as a sport pilot without a medical doesn't need all the extra endorsements that a sport pilot needs (airspace, night, fast/slow plane, etc.), but it looks like 62.23a3 puts the kibosh on that.

Edit, Geoffrey beat me to it.
 
Clip4 said:
61.23(a)(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate (iii)When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate.

You can’t do the private test without at least getting a Class III at some point in time.
Click to expand...

So close. There is a 61.113 exception for basicmed, but not one for Light Sport.

This is what I couldn't find and as far as I can see, this is the only thing holding it up.
 
bflynn said:
Weird thought prompted by a question in the medical forum. Is it possible to become a light sport pilot, then do all your private training and a private checkride in a light sport aircraft under the sport certificate without having a medical? I'm looking through the private rules and I'm not seeing why not.
Click to expand...
He would need a 3rd class medical to take the checkride:

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person -
. . .

(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate -
. . .
(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in § 61.113(i); . . . .
Click to expand...
 
Clip4 said:
61.23(a)(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate (iii)When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate.

You can’t do the private test without at least getting a Class III at some point in time.
Click to expand...

Also don't you need a medical to solo?

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/medical/

You need a medical certificate before flying solo in an airplane, helicopter, gyroplane, or airship. We suggest you get your medical certificate before beginning flight training. This will alert you to any condition that would prevent you from becoming a pilot before you pay for lessons
 
pfarber said:
Also don't you need a medical to solo?

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/medical/

You need a medical certificate before flying solo in an airplane, helicopter, gyroplane, or airship. We suggest you get your medical certificate before beginning flight training. This will alert you to any condition that would prevent you from becoming a pilot before you pay for lessons
Click to expand...

No, not if you are a Light Sport pilot and flying a LSA airplane.
 
Lindberg said:
He would need a 3rd class medical to take the checkride:
Click to expand...

Yup.

Feels like it would be be a safety enhancement for light sport pilots to be able take a private checkride using only the same light sport airplane they can fly with a driver's license. And that single thing is stopping them.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
43.7F says "certificate" and you have the certificate even if you don't have the medical.
With a sport pilot certificate, you can return your own SLSA to service, but not a type certificated aircraft that falls under the definition of LSA (e.g. Cub)
Click to expand...
But you cannot get said certificate without having that valid 3rd class.
 
bflynn said:
Yup.

Feels like it would be be a safety enhancement for light sport pilots to be able take a private checkride using only the same light sport airplane they can fly with a driver's license. And that single thing is stopping them.
Click to expand...
Nothing stopping you from offering an AME $700 to give you a mock checkride to PP standards. The certificate itself teaches you nothing.
 
bflynn said:
Yup.

Feels like it would be be a safety enhancement for light sport pilots to be able take a private checkride using only the same light sport airplane they can fly with a driver's license. And that single thing is stopping them.
Click to expand...

How so? What is missing from the Sport Pilot PTS that is required in the PPL ACS.

I’m not asking about training, I’m specifically asking about the PTS vs ACS.
 
TCABM said:
How so? What is missing from the Sport Pilot PTS that is required in the PPL ACS.

I’m not asking about training, I’m specifically asking about the PTS vs ACS.
Click to expand...

Depth. Speaking generally, light sport touches on topics more shallowly, which is appropriate for the light sport certificate.

One example is weather, the sport PTS requires 4 points - 1) knowledge of weather elements related to light sport flying, 2) make a good go/no decision, 3) avoiding bad weather, and 4) exiting IMC. The Private ACS has 4 items too, but one of those has 12 subitems related to deep details about weather, such as obscuration, clouds, turbulence, icing, etc. These aren't part of weather for light sport, if they're talked about at all, it's in the no-go decision.

Another example, light sport radio requirement is covered in just 4 items, private has 17 items.

This goes on and on. The depth of knowledge required for light sport is significantly lower than private. To me, a better knowledge of these topics implies a safer pilot.
 
bflynn said:
Depth. Speaking generally, light sport touches on topics more shallowly, which is appropriate for the light sport certificate.

One example is weather, the sport PTS requires 4 points - 1) knowledge of weather elements related to light sport flying, 2) make a good go/no decision, 3) avoiding bad weather, and 4) exiting IMC. The Private ACS has 4 items too, but one of those has 12 subitems related to deep details about weather, such as obscuration, clouds, turbulence, icing, etc. These aren't part of weather for light sport, if they're talked about at all, it's in the no-go decision.

Another example, light sport radio requirement is covered in just 4 items, private has 17 items.

This goes on and on. The depth of knowledge required for light sport is significantly lower than private. To me, a better knowledge of these topics implies a safer pilot.
Click to expand...

If given choice I would always suggest go for PP rather than Sport cert but for the exactly opposite reason - the difference in training is so minimal between both ( especially considering that bulk of training is taken by learning over and over the hands on part ie. how to fly/land/navigate which is pretty much the same for both certificates and you either struggle with it or not ( regardless if it is a SportCruiser or a C 152) - so in essence for pretty much the same amount of pain you end up with considerable restrictions with just the sport cert.
 
bflynn said:
Depth. Speaking generally, light sport touches on topics more shallowly, which is appropriate for the light sport certificate.

One example is weather, the sport PTS requires 4 points - 1) knowledge of weather elements related to light sport flying, 2) make a good go/no decision, 3) avoiding bad weather, and 4) exiting IMC. The Private ACS has 4 items too, but one of those has 12 subitems related to deep details about weather, such as obscuration, clouds, turbulence, icing, etc. These aren't part of weather for light sport, if they're talked about at all, it's in the no-go decision.

Another example, light sport radio requirement is covered in just 4 items, private has 17 items.

This goes on and on. The depth of knowledge required for light sport is significantly lower than private. To me, a better knowledge of these topics implies a safer pilot.
Click to expand...
So as @Lindberg indicated, maybe additional training and a “pretend” checkride is just as good.
 
bflynn said:
Depth. Speaking generally, light sport touches on topics more shallowly, which is appropriate for the light sport certificate.

One example is weather, the sport PTS requires 4 points - 1) knowledge of weather elements related to light sport flying, 2) make a good go/no decision, 3) avoiding bad weather, and 4) exiting IMC. The Private ACS has 4 items too, but one of those has 12 subitems related to deep details about weather, such as obscuration, clouds, turbulence, icing, etc. These aren't part of weather for light sport, if they're talked about at all, it's in the no-go decision.

Another example, light sport radio requirement is covered in just 4 items, private has 17 items.

This goes on and on. The depth of knowledge required for light sport is significantly lower than private. To me, a better knowledge of these topics implies a safer pilot.
Click to expand...

Depth of knowledge goes both ways. A Sport Pilot based out of a towered airport in busy airspace with four season weather may receive more depth and breadth of training in certain areas compared to a sleepy uncontrolled airport out in the desert.

When it comes to skills, a steep turn is a steep turn whether it’s SP PTS or Private ACS, same with ground reference maneuvers, takeoffs, landings, etc.
 
bflynn said:
Weird thought prompted by a question in the medical forum. Is it possible to become a light sport pilot, then do all your private training and a private checkride in a light sport aircraft under the sport certificate without having a medical? I'm looking through the private rules and I'm not seeing why not.
Click to expand...
Have you looked at 61.23(a)(3)(iii)? Here...


61.23 (a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person--
***
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate--
***
(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in § 61.113(i) [BasicMed]​
 
bflynn said:
Yup.

Feels like it would be be a safety enhancement for light sport pilots to be able take a private checkride using only the same light sport airplane they can fly with a driver's license. And that single thing is stopping them.
Click to expand...


I got a SP certificate then completed PP in the same LSA. I’m not seeing the “safety enhancement.” The training in all skill areas is the same, and the slow flight requirement is even more stringent for SP than for PP. PP requires a minimum amount of hood time whereas SP doesn’t specify hours, but SP does include training on instruments. About the only thing SP doesn’t include is night flight.
 
bflynn said:
So close. There is a 61.113 exception for basicmed, but not one for Light Sport.

This is what I couldn't find and as far as I can see, this is the only thing holding it up.
Click to expand...


That is why it said get a class 3 at some point time, never a class 3 no basic med.
 
bflynn said:
Weird thought prompted by a question in the medical forum. Is it possible to become a light sport pilot, then do all your private training and a private checkride in a light sport aircraft under the sport certificate without having a medical? I'm looking through the private rules and I'm not seeing why not.

61.103 does not mention a medical for eligibility.
The flight proficiency and experience for 61.107 and 109 can be gained through endorsements where needed, but as a sport pilot, you can solo on your own in a LSA airplane
61.113 has a medical requirement in it, but that just means you cannot exercise the privileges of a private certificate.

In the end, you could not fly as a private pilot without getting a medical, but having the private certificate confers some advantages as a sport pilot as well as certain knowledge and skill advantages.
Click to expand...
You're required to have your class 3 medical to solo and do the check ride for PP certification but there may be an exception for LSA pilots. I would certainly want to get confirmation either way before starting down that road.
 
bflynn said:
No, not if you are a Light Sport pilot and flying a LSA airplane.
Click to expand...
But once you start your PP certification you need the student pilot certification and medical to solo or take the checkride.

I'm still new to all of this but I would think the FAA would always default to the more stringent requirements for a student pilot once you start working on your PP.
 
O2 Birddog said:
You're required to have your class 3 medical to solo and do the check ride for PP certification but there may be an exception for LSA pilots. I would certainly want to get confirmation either way before starting down that road.
Click to expand...
The rules cover the confirmation pretty well. A student pilot flying only LSAs does not need a third class medical, and it is not needed for the light sport checkride.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The rules cover the confirmation pretty well. A student pilot flying only LSAs does not need a third class medical, and it is not needed for the light sport checkride.
Click to expand...
Correct but we're talking about an LSA pilot moving up to PP.
 
O2 Birddog said:
Correct but we're talking about an LSA pilot moving up to PP.
Click to expand...
Then he certainly needs a third class (or BasicMed) for his private checkride.

Before then, it depends. So long as al the tasks are being done in a light sport aircraft and within the privileges and limitation of a light sport pilot, I don't see even a potential problem.
 
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aviation-in...fly-light-sport-aircraft/faa-sport-pilot-rule

The sport pilot rule:

  • Creates a new student sport pilot certificate.
  • Creates a new sport pilot flight instructor certificate.
  • Requires FAA knowledge (written) and practical (flight) tests.
  • Credits sport pilot flight time toward more advanced pilot ratings.
  • Requires either a 3rd class FAA medical certificate or a current and valid U.S. driver’s license as evidence of medical eligibility (provided the individual's most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was not denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn).
  • Does not allow carrying passengers for compensation or hire.
  • Does not allow flights in furtherance of business.
  • Allows sharing (“pro-rata”) operating expenses with another pilot or passenger.
  • Allows daytime flight only.
  • Allow sport pilots to fly vintage and production aircraft (standard airworthiness certificate) that meet the definition of a light sport aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
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