Early Solo and Low time PPL

francisco collazos

francisco collazos

Pre-takeoff checklist
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ciscovet
Hey guys,
I have a question and i'd like to see what the experienced pilots on this forum have to say. Of course we all here of people who solo'd at low hours (say 8) and ended up with their PPL in 40hr. I'm curious if the experienced pilots here think that is a good idea. Just my background, I had a CFI that stated to me that in order to solo, you should be able to "share the air with pilots" of course I think he took this a little to literally and after about 60hr with no solo I ended up leaving to a new CFI.
But it did get me to think a little because I did make some stupid mistakes when I was further along like taking off at 75% power because of the way I pushed the throttle with my palm of my hand. I also have inappropriately set flaps because of the stupid flip switch of the 172. Occasionally I did want to pull up on final. Many of these could have been very dangerous especially the 75% power thing and I feel that if he wasn't there, things may have gone badly. I feel that experience is stuff that you learn AFTER the fact. I don't plan on making those mistakes again but can a person truly gain enough experience at 8 hr solo with 40 hr ppl? I'm pushing 47 yrs old and of course I would imagine that younger people would pick up flying much faster.
 
Hundreds if not thousands are still out there flying after getting a PPL in 40 hours. It took me 45 hours at 49 yrs of age and I haven't killed anyone yet. Yeah, you're still dangerous at 40 hours. But you're still dangerous at 30,000 hours too.
 
IMHO, how many hours it takes someone to solo or complete their checkride has little to do with how safe or competent a pilot is.

In my experience, the factor which extends how long it takes most to solo or pass their checkride is how often they fly. People that fly two hours every Saturday (or less) take forever to finish up. Those that fly two or three hours every day or every other day will be one of those 8 hour solo and 40 hour PPL people.
 
If you had to train until you were 100% safe, then you would never, ever be done training.

That said, I think that some 40-hour pilots are good and some are just barely not killing themselves and others, and I would argue it's mostly based on mindset. There are 40-hour pilots who take off when there's a thunderstorm ten miles away "because it's VFR on the field!" and there are 40-hour pilots who wait until it passes because they understand the risks of taking off with a thunderstorm so close. A 40-hour pilot who reads stuff he doesn't "need" to know, makes plans for things unlikely to happen so he has an idea of what to do in a situation that may one day happen, and makes the effort to understand his airplane and her limitations is a safer pilot than one who took 100 hours to train but never attempts to learn more about his airplane or the things that could affect his flying than what his CFI feeds him.
 
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Been flying off and on for 50+ years, more off than on. Still on occasion do some Oh S*** stuff.

just last week I thought my battery was dead because I didn’t fully engage the starter. Hadn’t flown my plane in a couple months while it was in annual. Different starter system than the rental I was using in the meantime.

And by the way, haven’t bent a plane yet but things like that remind me to stay focused.

Cheers
 
donjohnston said:
IMHO, how many hours it takes someone to solo or complete their checkride has little to do with how safe or competent a pilot is.

In my experience, the factor which extends how long it takes most to solo or pass their checkride is how often they fly. People that fly two hours every Saturday (or less) take forever to finish up. Those that fly two or three hours every day or every other day will be one of those 8 hour solo and 40 hour PPL people.
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Agreed and Agreed.

The USAF takes someone with 0 time, and teaches them to fly IFR in supersonic jets in about 200 hours (flight time). But that is done in 1 year, full time. Every working day having classes on flying, flying, talking about flying, thinking about flying.

When you are learning, if you fly once a week, about half of each lesson is getting back to where you were at the end of the last one. And then, if you miss a week, it is even more of the next lesson to get back to where you were. If you fly every other day, you lose little between each lesson, so you have more time for learning new stuff.
 
Old school cfi’s always bragged about how the least amount of hours they soloed their students. Personally, I think that is almost criminal. I soloed in 11 hrs, I probly should have had at least 3-5 hrs more. And the national average for ppl is 65, That’s what it took me.
If I were a cfi, the hours wouldn’t matter, making sure they are safe would be #1, there is a lot more learned from 10 hrs to 20 hrs before solo, it is not a race.
I would also get a student get used to an alternate field, close buy, just in case the primary training airport just happened to get closed down. Then student would at least be familiar with an alternate
 
The 8 hour solo/40 hour certificated fliers are certainly out there, but I think fewer and fewer students are finishing so quickly. Maybe because there is more stuff being covered, maybe CFIs are being more conservative...I just have the impression that time-to-complete numbers have been trending upwards for many years.

If you make a mistake like taking off with 75% power, it'll increase the time to solo because your CFI will want to see enough take-offs done correctly that he or she can feel reasonably sure that you won't make that mistake again. I've no idea if you should have soloed before 60 hours, but I think changing instructors was a good idea.
 
I trained with an old school CFI (whom I respected greatly). After a flight where I had about 6 hours, he told me "If you had passed your presolo written, I'd have soloed you today." Emphasis added. I sort of freaked out after I went home. I didn't think I was ready, but he did on that day. I wound up having to take a break from training and actually soloed a year later after 16 hours. And 53 landings. (Just checked my log book!) This was flying out of a class D airport with fairly complex airspace.

CFIs must make judgements on what is safe for that student, in that environment, on that day. It will vary widely. I'm not sure there's value in comparing numbers.

That said, if it's taking you 60+ hours to solo, some evaluation is in order. Is it you? Is it the CFI? Why is it taking so long? If you train once a month for 5 years, that could be a cause. If your CFI is so risk averse they just won't sing off, that's a cause. If you just don't have the aptitude, that's a cause. What's the deal?
 
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See below what is required for solo. As for me, my students have to be proficient in these areas, they also need to be able to get in and out of a neighboring Class C without my help.

Why the class C? I instruct out of a very busy D, and on a few occasions the runways have been shut down due to gear up, flat tire, etc. So if the can’t get somewhere on there own safely, they don’t solo.

61.87
d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.
 
It took me a while to solo (90 hr) but realistically I had a couple of issues. My original cfi (10 hr) was too busy checking texts of final. No kidding, I had set up a video for review and would see the guy with his hand behind the seat checking messages. The next CFI, really spent a lot of time on trimming, made me extremely nervous, never let me actually correct my mistakes on landing pattern, would fly us to a uncontrolled field 20 min away and never practiced radio calls. I just think he was extremely OCD and after about 60 hr and hearing about a youngish kid withover 100hr and 2 yrs of instruction still not soloing because according to him "did not fly enough". I decided to part ways. My new and awesome CFI solod me in about 10 hrs. I am sure if I would have started with this CFI I probably would have had my PPL in about 60ish hours. That being said, I am also fairly risk adverse and I really tend to be an overachiever and a perfectionist. I did not feel ready at times but I am to a point where I am ready. I plan on starting instrument as well as soon as i'm finished.
Of course I am a optimist and i really feel like those hours are still flying experience and were still worth it.
 
You absolutely can be ready to solo that early and get your PPL just over 40 hours. Not everyone, but it’s definitely do-able.

Some of the stories above make me very happy I have had great instructors.

One thing I learned early, act as pilot in command from day 1. If you know what to do, then do it, don’t wait for affirmation or instruction.
 
I was one of "those" as well. CFI was looking for filler material, because flying everything just clicked. I was flying 2-5 times per week. Now I'm a CFI and when 61.87 is satisfied and the student can make 10 take offs/patterns/landings in a row where I don't have to say anything and my hands stay on my lap without moving towards the yoke, they get signed off to solo. When the satisfy yhe rest of 61 and can fly the mock check ride at tolerances × 0.5 they are signed off for check ride.

We also do more than just 61 reqs.
 
caveat: I'm not a CFI

upfront, let's recognize that it's not a race. It will take as long as it takes.

Yes, I solo'd at just over 8 hours, and passed the ppl ride with about 48 hours.

In my case, it wasn't that I'm an awesome pilot. Key factors contributing to the low hours: (1) short, frequent lessons - usually less than one hour (one month I had 14 lessons); (2) quiet towered airport (not waiting 15 minutes just to get in the air; (3) instructor was a friend not trying to soak me (not saying others do).

I'd pay money to watch someone try to tell my CFI that she did it wrong... soloing people with such low hours.
 
If I had it to do over again, I'd have used an accelerated course.

If you know the IFR procedures, and don't need much additional training in the how-tos or details, I believe it'd be the best route.

If you've not got previous IFR experience, I believe it'd be more difficult. But these are ONLY my opinions. I used a regular instructor and took about three months.
 
francisco collazos said:
Hey guys,
I have a question and i'd like to see what the experienced pilots on this forum have to say. Of course we all here of people who solo'd at low hours (say 8) and ended up with their PPL in 40hr. I'm curious if the experienced pilots here think that is a good idea. Just my background, I had a CFI that stated to me that in order to solo, you should be able to "share the air with pilots" of course I think he took this a little to literally and after about 60hr with no solo I ended up leaving to a new CFI.
But it did get me to think a little because I did make some stupid mistakes when I was further along like taking off at 75% power because of the way I pushed the throttle with my palm of my hand. I also have inappropriately set flaps because of the stupid flip switch of the 172. Occasionally I did want to pull up on final. Many of these could have been very dangerous especially the 75% power thing and I feel that if he wasn't there, things may have gone badly. I feel that experience is stuff that you learn AFTER the fact. I don't plan on making those mistakes again but can a person truly gain enough experience at 8 hr solo with 40 hr ppl? I'm pushing 47 yrs old and of course I would imagine that younger people would pick up flying much faster.
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60 hours is a lot for pre-solo, and your CFI owes you some explanation. At the very least you need someone else to give you a second opinion and evaluation.
Also, did you make those mistakes just once, or frequently? If it was just once, then I'd say something is very odd here. Everyone makes mistakes, but as long as they learned from it, they are actually better off compared to someone who has not made those mistakes.
 
francisco collazos said:
I don't plan on making those mistakes again but can a person truly gain enough experience at 8 hr solo with 40 hr ppl?
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I doubt one can legally solo in compliance with Part 61 at 8 hours, even if the student learns everything to proficiency the first time it is taught. I've inherited two students from other instructors that soloed in 8 hours, one said he only ever flew in the traffic pattern, and did not learn many of the things in the list of required items as quoted by TommyG. The other wrecked the plane on his first solo.
 
The first solo is a milestone. But it does not give the student the keys to the plane to fly anytime they want. Once the student was safe in the pattern, I would solo them. Fly several patterns, and if good, left them fly 3 solo. Next flight, I would ride around the pattern, and if they were OK, then I would get out and let them fly the rest of the hour, in the pattern.

Then we would do a couple of flights out to the practice area again and work on airwork and getting to and from the practice area. Then, when they could handle this without any required input from me, I would sign them off for that.

They do not have to perfect with everything to solo. Just competent to do that flight.
 
I think a lot of CFI’s just take students up, do their thing, and students don’t know what’s expected of them. If a CFI keeps yelling right rudder and the student doesn’t understand and doesn’t implement right rudder to the CFI’s expectation then that is simply a communication issue. I’ve flown with several CFI’s to get different exposure and I learn to fly the airplane “their way”.

Some CFI’s want all lights on all the time. Others do not. Some focus more on coordination and the ball, others don’t. Just different styles, students need to recognize this and open up communication if they feel they are not learning.

You can be a CFI with very little hours, doesn’t mean you know how to teach well.
 
I thought that everyone got to fly and land the plane in their introductory flight because that was my experience. The truth is that we are all a little different with how, when, and how much we can take onboard. There is only so much room on the iceberg after all.
 
Pinecone said:
But it does not give the student the keys to the plane to fly anytime they want.
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With me it did, and with my students it does. When I solo them I also give them the repeat endorsements to the other airports <50 we went to prior to solo. I don't even bother to have them text or call to say they are going up. Just hit me up when you want the next flight lesson. Seems you aren't adequately preparing your students prior to their first solo, because what happens when someone sneaks in while in the pattern and closes the runway/airport because, well, stuff happens. Sounds like your students are getting short changed. Then again I'm not a check-the-box CFI.
 
tree9er said:
......
Some of the stories above make me very happy I have had great instructors.

One thing I learned early, act as pilot in command from day 1. If you know what to do, then do it, don’t wait for affirmation or instruction.
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good advice...

except.....
without those "great instructors" you write about in the first line....
then often no matter what perfectly logical, wise, safe, efficient, well timed, <insert other positively affirming adjective here>, etc... action you just took can often be met with a whole lesson in how that was an inferior move, and there is a better way, etc....
With some you have to do it their way...not your way, not that other CFI's way....
so you have to be mentally prepared to let things like this roll off your back.
 
I think the issue with aviation is that situational awareness does require some experience and some on the fly aviating on how to solve the problem.
 
dmspilot said:
The other wrecked the plane on his first solo.
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I can’t imagine how that worked out for the CFI.

mandm said:
You can be a CFI with very little hours, doesn’t mean you know how to teach well.
Click to expand...

I’d like to see 500 hours required for CFI. At 250 for CPL plus a handful, I don’t think you have the experience to be a good CFI.
 
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I think that just like pilots, it differs for CFIs what is "enough". My instructor was quite new, but she had several older/more experienced pilot mentors and absorbed their knowledge as much as possible and passed it on to me, and I feel like I got my money's worth of knowledge and skill development despite the lack of hours and experience in her logbook.
 
I soloed at 11 hours. I didn't think that was low at the time, but I was terrified regardless. And I took my check ride at close to 60 hours and still didn't know that I was really ready to be in the airplane by myself. Training is training. When you get your certificate, you should expect to be a basic pilot with minimum proficiency to fly the plane safely. You will not know everything you'll need to know forever.
 
You are ready when you are ready. It's not a race. It's about becoming a competent and confident pilot. I seem to remember that the average hours for the PPL checkride was something like 75 hours. In parts of the country where weather is a factor in completing your XC work, one might build up extra hours locally to stay sharp while waiting for better weather for completing XC work.
 
I soloed at 10 hours and got my PPL in low 40's. But that was the norm 30 years ago. I was at a structured program at a military flying club, flying 2 to 3 times a week. Before solo and check ride, each student took a flight with the chief instructor to verify they were ready. I felt confident and well prepared for both events. I also studied aerodynamics and aircraft systems obsessively.

IMO if you have not soloed in 60 hours, something is wrong. The cause could be you, or your CFI, or both. I would get a flight with another CFI to evaluate your skills.
 
At a minimum you should get a phase check from another instructor. You should have a serious talk with your instructor about what he sees as the problem. The amount of hours one has prior to solo is only a number. You want to become comfortable when you do solo.
 
Salty said:
Hundreds if not thousands are still out there flying after getting a PPL in 40 hours. It took me 45 hours at 49 yrs of age and I haven't killed anyone yet. Yeah, you're still dangerous at 40 hours. But you're still dangerous at 30,000 hours too.
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“You! You’re still dangerous…. But you can be my wingman any time!” Iceman
 
francisco collazos said:
It took me a while to solo (90 hr) but realistically I had a couple of issues. My original cfi (10 hr) was too busy checking texts of final. No kidding, I had set up a video for review and would see the guy with his hand behind the seat checking messages. The next CFI, really spent a lot of time on trimming, made me extremely nervous, never let me actually correct my mistakes on landing pattern, would fly us to a uncontrolled field 20 min away and never practiced radio calls. I just think he was extremely OCD and after about 60 hr and hearing about a youngish kid withover 100hr and 2 yrs of instruction still not soloing because according to him "did not fly enough". I decided to part ways. My new and awesome CFI solod me in about 10 hrs. I am sure if I would have started with this CFI I probably would have had my PPL in about 60ish hours. That being said, I am also fairly risk adverse and I really tend to be an overachiever and a perfectionist. I did not feel ready at times but I am to a point where I am ready. I plan on starting instrument as well as soon as i'm finished.
Of course I am a optimist and i really feel like those hours are still flying experience and were still worth it.
Click to expand...
How many hours do you have now? Do you have your private?
 
EdFred said:
With me it did, and with my students it does. When I solo them I also give them the repeat endorsements to the other airports <50 we went to prior to solo. I don't even bother to have them text or call to say they are going up. Just hit me up when you want the next flight lesson. Seems you aren't adequately preparing your students prior to their first solo, because what happens when someone sneaks in while in the pattern and closes the runway/airport because, well, stuff happens. Sounds like your students are getting short changed. Then again I'm not a check-the-box CFI.
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No, two different milestones for solo.

First and second solo are in the pattern. So they don't have to be fully competent to get to and from the practice area or to fly XC.

That comes later. The first solo gives them a boost in enthusiasm
 
DesertNomad said:
I’d like to see 500 hours required for CFI. At 250 for CPL plus a handful, I don’t think you have the experience to be a good CFI.
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The problem is, you can have thousands of hours, and still not have the experience required to be a good CFI. Unfortunately (in some ways) the only way to become a great CFI, is to be a CFI.

The problem is, you made some mistakes when you learned to fly and learned to correct them. But there are a LOT more ways to make mistakes doing the same thing, and you have not explored them. Being a CFI you will see a LOT more ways of doing things wrong, and you will have to analyze what is being done wrong, how it is being done wrong and how to correct that, and make that correction understood.
 
A lot of instructors do not understand the difference between Technique and Procedure.

Procedure is how you have to do some task.

Technique is a particular way of doing that task. And it NOT mandatory. And it will vary between pilots.

Too many instructors seem to feel that their way is the only want to do something.
 
I solo'd at ~70hrs :confused: It wasn't for the lack of flying, usually 2-3 times per week. It wasn't for the lack of comprehension or learning the skills. It wasn't for the lack of understanding concepts/regs/requirements, I ended up with a 98% on the written. I had an instructor, middle aged, that turned out to be ULTA conservative. He had quite a few hours under his own belt flying, but I was only his 2nd student through. His 1st student (I know him) was very similar (in hours, timing, etc.). I had 130hrs when I went for my checkride. Some suggested he was milking it, and maybe so. At the time, I had mixed feelings about it all, and sometimes definitely irritated with it all. When I solo'd I was definitely ready, more excited than nervous and did fine. When I went for my checkride, I had a known to be tough DPE. After the checkride, he didn't have a whole lot of criticisms to say (which wasn't normal from my understanding) and said I passed w/commercial standards. Looking back I took a LOT of time and spent a LOT of money to get my PPL. That was part of what led me to do the 10-day PIC Instrument Training (I didn't want to string out any more training over time). That said, I believe I got out of the gate (with my PPL) being a safer pilot having had such a conservative instructor and having him in the right seat for 130hrs prior to getting my PPL. We did a number of XC flights, extra hood time, night flights, etc. I can honestly say I don't believe I would have been ready to solo at < 10-15hrs. Not sure at what point I felt ready, but at ~70hrs, I definitely felt good about it.
 
It’s not the hours that matter, it’s how you use them.

I know a guy that finally got his PPL at 200 hrs (over a period of 10+ years). Boy, that dude was scary!

My students typically had 10-15 hrs at solo and 45-55 at checkride. Higher end were people that were not consistently flying.
 
1000RR said:
I had an instructor, middle aged, that turned out to be ULTA conservative. He had quite a few hours under his own belt flying, but I was only his 2nd student through. His 1st student (I know him) was very similar (in hours, timing, etc.). I had 130hrs when I went for my checkride. Some suggested he was milking it, and maybe so. At the time, I had mixed feelings about it all, and sometimes definitely irritated with it all.
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I had a similar situation w.r.t instructor. I was only the 2nd student who had wrapped up training with him so he still felt very iffy about signing me off for checkride, despite not being able to offer any criticisms about my flying or areas I had to improve in. I had the same mixed feelings/irritation about it. But in the end the extra hours (probably 10 more than I needed) didn't hurt. Cost a few extra bucks and delayed me about 6 weeks but that extra time literally added 20% more flying experience for my checkride (which went similar to yours). Hard to complain with those results.
 
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