DWI: Refused to test, need help for reporting

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A big ol idiot

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Around a month ago I was taking a friend of mine home after a night of drinking. This was foolish, I was too intoxicated and could've killed someone else if not ourselves. I've come to terms with whatever punishment may be coming my way for my actions. My question concerns 61.15 and 61.16. In the heat of the moment that night I called my lawyer who is no aviation expert and he advised me not to blow. All of the regs seem to have some very conflicting language after my lawyer and I reviewed them. My license was suspended but we have gotten a continuation on it until the State hearing for my refusal to test.
My main question right now is do I still need to report this violation and citation to the FAA. I technically still have my license but I am definitely still in the State record base for the arrest. I've been assuming I still need to. I was hoping to have at least a court date in before my 60 days was up so I'd know where i stand, but because of the virus this has already been continued past the 60 days stated. The state is Missouri if this makes any difference. Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Yes. You refused, you lost all rights. If you're a pilot, you don't have the right to refuse. If you do, they automatically list you as "refusal to test" and this assumes you had a very high level and you were trying to hide it.
 
Jack is referring to what happens when you go up for your next medical.

Let's get something straight. Your license wasn't suspended, it was REVOKED. The 15 day temporary that you're operating under doesn't change that. This is indeed required to be reported on your next medical and that will cause problems because as Jack says, a refusal will be assumed to be a high BAC, and that will indicate you have a high alcohol tolerance and are a chronic drunk.

The question you seem to be asking is whether this is an action that requires a report within 60 days to the FAA security people. My interpretation looking at the Missouri statutes for the revocation is YES.
 
The OP called his attorney, who told him not to blow. By the responses here, that was the WORST POSSIBLE advice. If so, could he have grounds for legal malpractice?
 
Well, but his attorney told him not to BLOW. That may have meant submit to a blood alcohol test instead, which is considered more accurate.
 
Possibly, possibly not. As far as legal ethics goes, failure to inform the attorney that you have extraordinary issues such as a pilot's license or dubious immigration status may not make these secondary effects an issue.

The next problem, is it may be a damned if you do, damend if you don't situation.

Not having a chemical test may have staved off a DUI conviction. The DUI conviction would be worse for him for just about everything BUT his pilot status. Even for a pilot's license, it would be problematic. If he was over .15, he'd be in the same boat he is now. From his description, it's quite likely he was. Even below .15, he's got a tough road with the FAA.

Understand there is no "legal limit" either with the FAA or the state. The "limits" (and the refusal) are just places where you are presumed to be intoxicated without needing further proof. You can get convicted and be in trouble with the FAA at .05, for example.

What he needs to do is get an attorney that knows the FAA to advise him how to deal with that, and one that knows the state issues to deal with that. I also suggest he get professional help for his substance problem (which by definition he now has).
 
OneCharlieTango said:
The OP called his attorney, who told him not to blow. By the responses here, that was the WORST POSSIBLE advice. If so, could he have grounds for legal malpractice?
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I doubt that. It may have been the worst possible advice concerning his pilot's certificate, but he may well get out of the DWI somehow, but that probably will not undo the damage done to the pilot's cert.
 
A big ol idiot said:
Around a month ago I was taking a friend of mine home after a night of drinking. This was foolish, I was too intoxicated and could've killed someone else if not ourselves. I've come to terms with whatever punishment may be coming my way for my actions. My question concerns 61.15 and 61.16. In the heat of the moment that night I called my lawyer who is no aviation expert and he advised me not to blow. All of the regs seem to have some very conflicting language after my lawyer and I reviewed them. My license was suspended but we have gotten a continuation on it until the State hearing for my refusal to test.
My main question right now is do I still need to report this violation and citation to the FAA. I technically still have my license but I am definitely still in the State record base for the arrest. I've been assuming I still need to. I was hoping to have at least a court date in before my 60 days was up so I'd know where i stand, but because of the virus this has already been continued past the 60 days stated. The state is Missouri if this makes any difference. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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You need to report it to the FAA and I believe you have a limited time to do so. This is not a time for self help, my thought is to find an AME to help you with this. There are two ame's who frequent this board, I would solicit them for advice, or your own AME.

There are many posts on this forum that will give you an idea of what you are in for now, check them out to see if it is worth it for you.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Well, but his attorney told him not to BLOW. That may have meant submit to a blood alcohol test instead, which is considered more accurate.
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If properly administered, the breath test is accurate enough. This is different than advising someone to forgo the PBT which the law doesn't mandate (nor the FAA has a concern about).

Missouri is one of the states that does NOT give the driver the choice of which chemical test he wants. Any one that the state is legally empowered to give him, he must by law submit or face the revocation consequences.
 
Most DUI attorney’s tell you not to blow, but their goal is to beat the DUI charge. They don’t give a darn about your pilot certificate.
 
My free advice? At this point you need to consult an aviation attorney. A "regular" lawyer isn't going to cut it.
 
PaulS said:
Wellll, it kinda is, moderation is key, I've seen too many people crash and burn and too many times it's become my problem.
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I believe in moderate discretion and discrete moderation.
 
Matthew said:
Was this a roadside test that was refused or the one back at the station?
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If his license was revoked, it was the mandatory chemical test. You're free to refuse the PBTs and FSTs.
 
PaulS said:
Except in New Hampshire, I believe you are required to do the field sobriety tests there.
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I'm specifically talking about MISSOURI which is what this thread is about. What happens in New Hampster is entirely irrelevant.
 
flyingron said:
I'm specifically talking about MISSOURI which is what this thread is about. What happens in New Hampster is entirely irrelevant.
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While you knew you were talking about just Missouri, I didn't, so I posted that for others who may read this post and not realize you were just talking about Missouri and think that that taking the FST is not required everywhere.

I was actually surprised when I found out you had to do these tests in NH, because they are not required in Mass. I would have thought it would be opposite. Fortunately I have not had to ever perform them and am working to keep it that way.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Most DUI attorney’s tell you not to blow, but their goal is to beat the DUI charge. They don’t give a darn about your pilot certificate.
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I’ve observed the opposite here (WA). The overwhelming percentage gave the same advice:
-take the breath test
-cooperate with the officer
-don’t answer questions.
Here, getting the test excluded in Pretrial motions is easier than overcoming the elephant in the room of a refusal...or at least that’s my understanding.
 
flyingron said:
I'm specifically talking about MISSOURI which is what this thread is about. What happens in New Hampster is entirely irrelevant.
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I spent zero time in law school, and nearly as much time on the interwebs. Here's what three lawers say, specifically about the portable breathalyzer in MO:

https://www.waldolawyer.com/waldo-lawyers-legal-blog/portable-breath-test-kansas-city-missouri-dwi

https://www.missourilawyers.com/criminal-law/dwi-defense-lawyer/breath-test/

https://kcdwi.org/what-if-i-am-pulled-over-for-dwi-in-kansas-city/

But yeah, if you refuse to blow after the arrest I *thought* you could option over to the blood test instead. After the arrest, implied consent doesn't give you good choices.
 
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Omalley1537 said:
I’ve observed the opposite here (WA). The overwhelming percentage gave the same advice:
-take the breath test
-cooperate with the officer
-don’t answer questions.
Here, getting the test excluded in Pretrial motions is easier than overcoming the elephant in the room of a refusal...or at least that’s my understanding.
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Yeah. In some states (such as mine) a refusal can get you a one year suspended licence. A DUI often gets you ten days (for first timers).
 
Matthew said:
I spent zero time in law school, and nearly as much time on the interwebs. Here's what three lawers say, specifically about the portable breathalyzer in MO:
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Never said the PBT was obligatory, in fact, I said the opposite.

But yeah, if you refuse to blow after the arrest I *thought* you could option over to the blood test instead. After the arrest, implied consent doesn't give you good choices.
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It has NOTHING to do with the arrest. It has to do with whether this is the legal chemical test (usually a police station breathalyzer) or not.
 
flyingron said:
Never said the PBT was obligatory, in fact, I said the opposite.
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No argument there. I, and others, get confused about the different tests - all can be refused, but some have different ramifications.

flyingron said:
It has NOTHING to do with the arrest. It has to do with whether this is the legal chemical test (usually a police station breathalyzer) or not.
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Again, no argument here either. There are different tests, and I'm trying get an understanding for myself just which test the OP refused.

It does sound like, from some of those MO DUI lawyer websites, that they are implying that even the station test should be refused since a first timer will probably get his license back sooner than if the test is taken and is failed.

This also shows how an aviation lawyer may give different advice than a DUI lawyer.
 
If he got the chemical revocation (which he appears to have), he refused the test he was required to submit to by the implied consent law.
However, it's irrelevant to his FAA issue. He has a motor vehicle action that requires a report both now to the FAA security office and again at his next medical. He can expect a lot of hoops at the next medical for having been assumed to have developed an alcohol tolerance. In addition to other asinine requirements (don't get me started on mandating AA), if he wants to continue flying, he must STOP drinking. Completely. Not just 8 feet from bottle to throttle but absolute abstinence.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
The OP called his attorney, who told him not to blow. By the responses here, that was the WORST POSSIBLE advice. If so, could he have grounds for legal malpractice?
Click to expand...

Legally, without regard to the pilot certificate, that is good advice. When you factor in the Cert, it’s horrible advice.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Most DUI attorney’s tell you not to blow, but their goal is to beat the DUI charge. They don’t give a darn about your pilot certificate.
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I totally disagree. I worked in the legal profession for years. A good DUI attorney will tell you to refuse everything, FST's, conversation, etc EXCEPT to blow. That way they can try and beat the charge on other legal grounds such as the stop, etc.
 
troll or not, OP, if this is real - get off the interwebz and call an aviation attorney
 
JCranford said:
Legally, without regard to the pilot certificate, that is good advice. When you factor in the Cert, it’s horrible advice.
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But that doesn't make it "malpractice." And given exactly what his situation was, it might not have been "horrible advice." If he really had been toasted beyond .15, it wouldn't have made a difference to the FAA. It probably makes a MASSIVE difference to whether he ends up with a criminal record over this.
 
Thank you to everyone who answered. No, unfortunately this is not a troll. I ****ed up major time. Since I have started my training I can count on one of my hands how many times I have driven when I know i shouldn't have and that was one, just got busted this time. I've lost two very good friends of mine to drunk drivers, this obviously doesn't mean i get a pass or anything, it just means when i woke up the next day the "WTF was i doing" factor was way higher. My lawyer meant no harm, he's a friend of mine and is doing the best he can to help me out. He told me to refuse the chemical test in the station, which got my license revoked. My roadside BAC was high enough though that FAA wise i doubt the refusal would matter. I'm likely in for a one hell of a legal haul.
 
I guess ill start writing up my letter tomorro . Another question to anyone who would be willing to answer. Think its time i look for another life calling? Seems like with the industry downturn and me being a big ol idiot im screwed at this point. Or should i wait for the FAA to get back to me and see what happens with my case? Theres a good chance I could get the charges completely wiped clean since i was pulled over for "failing to keep right" in an area with no centerline. My lawyer has had some good luck lately with getting charges overturned on "unjustified traffic stops".
 
A big ol idiot said:
I guess ill start writing up my letter tomorro . Another question to anyone who would be willing to answer. Think its time i look for another life calling? Seems like with the industry downturn and me being a big ol idiot im screwed at this point. Or should i wait for the FAA to get back to me and see what happens with my case? Theres a good chance I could get the charges completely wiped clean since i was pulled over for "failing to keep right" in an area with no centerline. My lawyer has had some good luck lately with getting charges overturned on "unjustified traffic stops".
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Are u a career pilot like flying for a good living or aspiring??
 
WannFly said:
This line really bothers me.
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I didn’t mean to make that sound coy, or like I’m trying to live above the law. It’s pitiful and there’s no excuse for this. Growing up it was kind of normalized when drinking since we lived so far from everything. I remember my parents driving us home too drunk more than once because of it. Once I learned I could actually be a pilot I stopped doing it as often. That was quite a few years ago. The times that I have driven intoxicated since then were because the choices were limited. (ie. my DD getting so drunk he couldn’t stand, so I stop drinking to get me and friends home) Still an awful, awful decision regardless. I’ve already attended funerals of friends who died to drunk drivers, yet here I am. You think I would’ve learned when I never got to see them again.
benyflyguy said:
Are u a career pilot like flying for a good living or aspiring??
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I was hoping airlines or corporate one day. Was thinking maybe even military but I know that’s off the table now. They won’t accept officers like me
 
A big ol idiot said:
I guess ill start writing up my letter tomorro . Another question to anyone who would be willing to answer. Think its time i look for another life calling? Seems like with the industry downturn and me being a big ol idiot im screwed at this point. Or should i wait for the FAA to get back to me and see what happens with my case? Theres a good chance I could get the charges completely wiped clean since i was pulled over for "failing to keep right" in an area with no centerline. My lawyer has had some good luck lately with getting charges overturned on "unjustified traffic stops".
Click to expand...

So I'm confused, you are going to write a letter to the FAA? Have you consulted a professional rather than some guys on the internet to figure out how to handle this with the FAA? Or are you just going to muddle along on your own until you've dug a hole so deep you can't get out?
 
A big ol idiot said:
I didn’t mean to make that sound coy, or like I’m trying to live above the law. It’s pitiful and there’s no excuse for this. Growing up it was kind of normalized when drinking since we lived so far from everything. I remember my parents driving us home too drunk more than once because of it. Once I learned I could actually be a pilot I stopped doing it as often. That was quite a few years ago. The times that I have driven intoxicated since then were because the choices were limited. (ie. my DD getting so drunk he couldn’t stand, so I stop drinking to get me and friends home) Still an awful, awful decision regardless. I’ve already attended funerals of friends who died to drunk drivers, yet here I am. You think I would’ve learned when I never got to see them again.

I was hoping airlines or corporate one day. Was thinking maybe even military but I know that’s off the table now. They won’t accept officers like me
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This is going to sound harsh, but you are not yet emotionally mature enough or disciplined enough to be a commercial pilot.

Not yet, and unless your judgement massively improves, not ever.

That said, it's not legal advice, but read this as its in simple to understand terms:

http://www.airspacedoc.com/alcohol-the-pilot-and-the-faa/

and this regarding refusal to test and the resulting requirement for an alcohol eval (that you might not pass based on your described drinking habits, normalization of your behavior and more than a little denial):

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2012/may/30/should-you-refuse-to-take-a-breathalyzer

If you are a member of AOPA, call their pilot protection services number and get some legal advice. If you are not a member, become one and call their pilot protection services number.

Then put down the shovel before the hole you are digging is so deep you can't climb out and report your arrest and refusal to test to the FAA within 60 days. If you don't they'll revoke all your certificates and ratings.
 
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