Dual GTN 750's or GTN750/650 Combo

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JerryFlyGuy

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JerryFlyGuy
Looking at an upgrade from legacy equipment in a corporate a/c that fly's throughout North America. Our options are for a Dual GTN 750 setup or a GTN 750/650 pairing. I'd jump with both feet on the dual 750 install but there is a 'real estate' crunch. It can be made to work w/ some changes to Stand-by systems etc but that all costs money. End of the day it all comes down to money, the 750/650 setup saving about $40K vs the dual 750's w/ all the other mods that are required if we go that route.

I've yet to find an definitive details on how a dual 750 setup out-shines the 750/650 setup or even to what degree you'd use the second radio/GPS?

Anyone have an experience w/ all of this? Recommendations?

thnx
 
Are your crews using tablets? If so, the addition of a Flightstream 510 (and a ship power USB port) alleviates much of the need for the second larger screen, depending on the EFB software.

The 750 can display approach plates if you’re going for an all “in panel” solution to that.

Other than the larger screen real estate and the plates, the two are nearly identical units. The 650 can’t do a full keyboard on the touchscreen so you have to do the punch a letter and scroll thing, but flight plans and such crossfill and you can do all your typing on the big one.

Or better, type on the iPad in the FBO and send it to both via the Flightstream.
 
Hi Nate. We are a single crew operation (flying a CJ2). I do use an iPad (there are charging ports provided) and keep everything in duplicate on my iPhone also. Currently am only using Foreflight and JepCharts on the ipad. We will have FlightStream 510 installed also.

With this setup, are you saying you'd opt for the 750/650 setup?

Thanks!
 
I would not personally care if there were one or two “big screens” but it might take a little more screen juggling to say, keep the moving map displayed on one and the approach plate on the other. Or a big ADS-B weather view at the same time as the plate.

With the Flightstream you have more options. Something can move to the tablet like the plate or the weather or traffic or whatever if you’re trying to see “two major pieces of information” on larger screens at the same time.

I wouldn’t like two *650s* in a single pilot jet application just because you wouldn’t have the plates on the panel, but keeping the plates updated in the panel is an additional expense (albeit not huge compared to the operating cost of the jet). But even that could be done if the pilots usually use their tablets to read plates. It adds a little risk since the panel gear is less likely to suffer an in flight failure than a tablet.

We went with single 650 in a Skylane that doesn’t log enough IMC time to really need two displays and the Flightstream to augment it so the tablet can display other things like ADS-B weather, traffic, whatever. In our setup the tablet is the “big” screen. I don’t find the workload of putting things where I want to see them when I want to see them on whichever display, any detriment or heavy, and our aircraft is all hand flown.

But y’all have a few more things going on in the jet if you have an AP failure, for example. So it’s a workload question. With two big screens you can use one like a continuous moving map and the other can display “other stuff” even if the tablet is down or the pilot simply doesn’t want to fuss with a tablet in bad weather. But it comes at a slightly higher cost.

Forgetting the panel real estate problem, I suspect the price difference for dual 750s is less than a full fuel load for your aircraft, so if there’s room, dual 750 is “nice to have” but I suspect also not “mandatory”.

I’d just peruse the owners manual for the GTN, there’s a short list of stuff the 750 can do and the 650 can’t in there, but mainly it’s plates and SafeTaxi diagrams and stuff that just needs the bigger screen real estate. And that keyboard thing.

Here’s the real rub for having a 750/650 setup. Think failure modes. If you think you could deal with the smaller screen and weird keyboard effectively single-pilot and keep up with the jet, that’s the answer right there. Pretend the 750 fails.

Additionally think about the Flightstream in that configuration. If the 750 fails and the Flightstream 510 is in the 750, the tablet also loses the ADS-B IN data and can’t send flight plan updates to the paired 650. Same thing with dual 750s, if the primary drops the Flightstream 510 in it also drops but the keyboard and larger screen experience on the 750 may be better for that failure scenario.

In our case if we drop the 650 we revert back to VOR in the King Nav/Com and internal nav in the cellular tablet as an emergency scenario.

Just another way to analyze it for you. Failure modes.
 
@JerryFlyGuy -- If the Garmin GTX345 transponder is added to your panel, it also plays very nicely with the 750. Adding the ability to see many of the ADS-B "In" products right on the 750's screen.
 
Nate, that's a pretty comprehensive explanation. In addition to whatever GTN systems we integrate we also have a ProLine21 (3 screen) setup and an FMS (UNS-1L) to back up the GTN systems. I'm probably going to end up w/ a backup Stratus receiver as a secondary backup to the the onboard systems, in case the GTN is to fail or in the event of a power loss etc (its pretty cheap insurance for the price). The total difference in the installs between the dual 750's vs the 750/650 is ~$40K USD so it's not insignificant. I've never flown either system (played w/ the iPad demo of the 750 only) so don't really know what works or the work flows look like even. I used to fly a 530/430 combo and the 430 was simply used to display a bunch of data points (ETA, ETE, TTfix, Local MSA, D To fix etc). I'm not sure in that situation if dual 530's would have been any better? Hence my wondering if the extra $40K would be better spent on something else (or not at all).

Mike, we're putting in a bunch of extra stuff in addition to the GTN's; GTX-345R, GDL-69A, GMA-35 as well as some Shadin fuel flow stuff to deliver fuel flows into the GTN's, also putting in a couple wireless com's for the ppl in the back to communicate w/ the "front office" (cockpit).
 
Sounds like you're gonna have a very nice set up when done.
 
Thanks Mike, it will be super nice, just don't want to blow money I don't need to. I'm just bringing the a/c online and have a specific budget in mind to do so. If I can trim costs here, I can use that money in the budget to do some additional interior refinements. Hence why all the questions! :)
 
20170927_111417.jpg We did the twin 750's in our Ultra and I am glad we went that way. The extra price was less than 20K extra so the decision was easier. We did put charts on one of the 750's but I would not do it again. The screen is too small on the 750's for approach charts, I like them on the iPads better. We also did all the extra Garmin stuff you listed.

JetTech did the work and we are very happy it.
20170728_081631.jpg
 
Thanks Plano Pilot. The reason for the extra cost on the 525 is due to moving the standby instruments and replacing two of them with an 'all-in-one' solution (plus the LSTC to install it). Currently there isn't any STC's out there for any kind of standby instrument that does the job so we have to pay for an LSTC or field approval. We're using the Jettech STC for the GTN's also.

With your Chartview, are you saying the extra subscription cost just isn't worth the money? Do you use SafeTaxi on there also?

While I will have the iPad, our SOP is to have redundant chart options so having an iPad and the charts in the dash qualify for that. (I've also got it on my iPhone but if it ever came to using my iPhone for primary chart data... heaven help us.)

What other ways can you set up your second 750? Do you put other views up while en-route? This is really where I'm struggling w/ the 'value for money' part of the question, I'm not able to visualize how you can leverage the second screen to give improved situational awareness over a 750/650 along w/ the ProLine21, with dual 750's there starts to be A LOT of screen space to scan.

Thanks!
 
Also Plano Pilot, did you retain your FMS?
 
I didn’t realize you were also moving that much stuff around! Ha. Yeah, that’d push the difference between the 750/650 and 750/750 price waaaay up. :)
 
Got rid of the FMS. For the Jepp charts on the 750, it is the price to unlock the 750 to display them. We do have the safe taxi charts. We usually have the traffic displayed on the #2 750.
 
Nate, yeah... if we didn't have to do the LSTC for the new standby instrument (if there was an STC we could just buy) it'd be a great deal cheaper and I wouldn't be asking(it'd just be done already)!
 
Plano, were you not able to push the traffic through to the Primus?

In my case (I believe) the ADS/B-in traffic is able to be ported over to the Proline21. XM-Weather and ADS/B weather won't get pushed over to the MFD but will remain on the 750(again; I don't believe it can be pushed over). So, the radar will remain on the MFD (installers noted it can't be sent over to the 750). This setup will give dual weather depictions from the two separate systems(on two separate screens). That being said, if traffic and radar are on the MFD and weather is on the first 750, not sure what I'd display on the second 750? I'd assume that XM/ADS-B weather and a chart view could all be displayed on one 750?

Wishing I could see the system in operation to actually see what works best and feels right for displayed info on which screens.
 
Plano, another question for you. Do you miss some of the flight planning functions that the FMS delivered to you? (fuel and weights etc)? Ever wish they'd kept the FMS for some of this?
 
Our Ultra was the 9th one built and our early Primus 1000 system does not support showing traffic. Later ones do but lots of $ to upgrade. With the Proline system being newer I would think things will work much better together.

Our radar is still on the original MFD, it is not supported by the 750. Flight plan routes are still shown on the original MFD also.

XM and ADSB weather can be shown on the 750 but only one at a time, as far as I know.

If you are in the Dallas area get in touch and I will show you our setup.

On the arrivals with several crossing restrictions I do miss our FMS since you can only set up one crossing altitude on each 750. The crossing altitudes are not in the database. On a positive side our database subscriptions went from mid $3K down to $1K. I have been told that Garmin is working on a better VNAV calculator, hope it comes out soon. We have the fuel flows on the 750's via a new Shadin sensor, old one would not work with the new 750's. I barely miss the weight calculator, easy to do on paper or in my head.

We actually had our work done by Jettech in Denver and I highly recommend Rob and his team.
 
So had some good discussion w/ the installer on Friday.

The basic's are : the Proline21 will get weather (radar only) and traffic from the legacy systems. The 750 will pull both XM and ADS-B-in(only, it can't be pushed to the Proline). I'm based in Canada but do fly a fair bit into the USA, while Canada doesn't have the ADS-B mandate it's a 'good to have' when in the USA. As I understand it, there isn't the broadcast stations for ADS-B(in) in Canada so the coverage will be spotty.Therefore I can assume that the majority of the time I'll fly w/ XM weather. That all being said; The only real advantage to having dual 750's that I could find is the ability to auto populate the approach chart on the second 750 when an approach is selected on the primary 750. If I'm already flying w/ an iPad, have the ability to charge it and get GPS (and attitude info) out of it and have a portable Stratus 2 for backup, I'm not sure the extra money for the dual 750's is warranted.

Another negative that I've been made aware of is the removal of the legacy FMS system. I'm told that the Proline will only accept 2 FMS inputs and w/ the STC they are both of the Garmin products so the UNS-1L is no longer connected to anything. This eliminates the ability to do VNAV while flying arrivals and other such procedures where VNAV can be utilized. In addition to that, all of your weight calculations, fuel state etc is lost when you pull the FMS. None of those a deal breakers really, but now I'm trying to decipher if the added benefits of the 750 (usability) makes up for those losses? I've never used VNAV on an FMS (only ever had 530/430 VNAV planners) so I don't know how big of a loss (or non-loss) this is?

If I don't go for the 750's (or 750/650) then we could do a UNS-1L swap to a UNS-1LW which would give us the WAAS ability w/ LPV that we require. We'd have to find a solution for the ADS-B requirements that are out there. Adding some kind of transponder(s) that qualify while either retaining the existing Collins radio stack but removing components of it (the transponders and probably the ADF to get the required room) would also be required.

I'm going to call Jettech today on the dual 750 vs 750/650 discussion today and get some more scope from them. Feel like I'm getting lost in the weeds here w/ not a lot of scope to make decisions with.
 
JerryFlyGuy said:
I'm based in Canada but do fly a fair bit into the USA, while Canada doesn't have the ADS-B mandate it's a 'good to have' when in the USA.
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All aircraft flying into US airspace that requires a transponder today will require ADS-B. TC is doing a bit of experimenting with it and will likely choose 1090 if they do pick it up. Though I rather suspect that anything approved for a jet is going to only come in a 1090 version.
 
flyer770 agreed. But then who knows what TC does these days (or when it will happen). Regardless, it's getting done just trying to figure out what is my best option for 'the doing'. I believe the GTX-345R's that are quoted in my install will have 1090 out and the dual link feature for 1090/978 In.
 
Yes the 345, both panel and remote, will do as advertised. That'll likely be the unit I'll choose myself once I suck it up and do it myself.
 
Plano Pilot said:
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Who decided that the appropriate color scheme for aircraft wiring is...white? Only white. Big or small, seems every aircraft assumes avionics guys are colorblind. Is there a technical reason for this? Seems like a huge waste of time to have zero hints about correlating the ends of a wire.
 
Plano are you able to push frequencies from the data in the primary 750 down to the second 750? I think I've been painted into a corner where I'm forced to go 750/650 just due to the extra cost of the dual 750 install. That said, I'm hoping I'm not giving up vital functionality if I do so.

Reason I ask the question above is that (in the past) my primary nav is also my primary com. When enroute if I was to pull the ATIS freq from the onboard data in the 750, I'd rather not put that into the primary radio (which will most likely be approach or center) but rather push it down to the bottom radio (650 or 750) and listen to it there. I realize you can listen to two frequencies at once on the primary radio, but for arguments sake, just wondering if this is now a function w/in the crossfill functionality?

Thnx!
 
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JerryFlyGuy said:
Plano are you able to push frequencies from the data in the primary 750 down to the second 750? I think I've been painted into a corner where I'm forced to go 750/650 just due to the extra cost of the dual 750 install. That said, I'm hoping I'm not giving up vital functionality if I do so.

Reason I ask the question above is that (in the past) my primary nav is also my primary com. When enroute if I was to pull the ATIS freq from the onboard data in the 750, I'd rather not put that into the primary radio (which will most likely be approach or center) but rather push it down to the bottom radio (650 or 750) and listen to it there. I realize you can listen to two frequencies at once on the primary radio, but for arguments sake, just wondering if this is now a function w/in the crossfill functionality?

Thnx!
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Not that I know of. I did look at the 650 Pilot's Manual and it did not look too hard to look up the frequency on the 650 and transfer to it's own com.
 
JerryFlyGuy said:
Plano are you able to push frequencies from the data in the primary 750 down to the second 750? I think I've been painted into a corner where I'm forced to go 750/650 just due to the extra cost of the dual 750 install. That said, I'm hoping I'm not giving up vital functionality if I do so.

Reason I ask the question above is that (in the past) my primary nav is also my primary com. When enroute if I was to pull the ATIS freq from the onboard data in the 750, I'd rather not put that into the primary radio (which will most likely be approach or center) but rather push it down to the bottom radio (650 or 750) and listen to it there. I realize you can listen to two frequencies at once on the primary radio, but for arguments sake, just wondering if this is now a function w/in the crossfill functionality?

Thnx!
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The GMA 350c (or 35c remote) audio panels might help you here, with their voice recognition.

I only have one audio panel and one GTN, but I can hit the PTC (push to command) button and say "Tune destination ATIS" and it pops right up in the standby com frequency.

Since you're on a jet, you probably have dual audio panels, right? I bet you could have dual PTC going to the two audio panels, with one hooked to each GTN. To my knowledge, the 350c doesn't control two separate GTNs.

If you only have one audio panel, you may consider only hooking it to the 650. However, I've found there's a lot of utility to being able to control the 750 with voice commands as well. Instead of pushing Home and then Traffic, I just hit the PTC that's next to my thumb already and say "Show traffic."
 
Go big or go homeeeee! Two 750s
 
You honed in on the much bigger issue of losing VNAV and other important functionality when the UNS-1 is disconnected. To answer the initial question first, I think the benefits of two 750s vs. a 750/650 are minimal. I wouldn't move a bunch of stuff around just to have two of the big screens. You really only need one MFD of that size in an aircraft the size of the CJ2, plus you have the iPad, so...

You're not going to want to give up the integration of the UNS just to have the fancy Garmin big screen. Crossing restrictions, VNAV, all of that, as you know, is far more important and useful. I would hate to fly a jet with a relatively modern suite like the PL21 and not be able to program the box to fly a STAR and meeting the crossing restrictions... no way. It would be better to just switch to the 1W if it came down to that.

I used to mentor in the CJ2+! I really liked the airplane overall, although I personally found the flight deck really uncomfortable. Otherwise it was pretty wild to be sitting at FL450 by myself in the front of this tiny straight wing airplane. Heh.

I flew all the CJs except the 3. I have a lot of time behind the UNS-1, mostly in straight 2s and 1s. A very capable box, but not intuitive at all. It was sorta funny - I went years without flying behind one and got a contract once to pick up a CJ1 somewhere. I knew it would have a UNS-1 and figured, no problem, I know those things like the back of my hand. When I got to the airplane, it was a good thing I arrived early because it took me 10 minutes of futzing around with the thing to remind myself how to use it. Amazing how quickly that stuff exits the noggin.
 
Plano I saw it on a video somewhere but now I can't find it again. The gist was that when they drilled down into the Frequencies tab on the airport data it popped up a dialog that asked Com1/Com2 with respective buttons. I've asked my installer about it and we'll see what he says. I've got the GTN simulator on my iPad but it doesn't show any of this. I suspect it's a cross-fill function that can be turned on (if-it-in-fact exists; I HOPE it does!). Getting to the same spot in the 650 isn't that hard, just would be nice if I can operate all frequencies from one screen.

Kent we're putting in a GMA 35(remote) audio panel (not dual however). Not familiar w/ an PTC functionality.

CC268 I'd love to have the dual install but for a $35K premium over the 750/650 install it just doesn't make sense. I'd be willing to pay $10K to get it but not $35K.

Ryan, thanks for the input. I've since learned that Garmin is working on VNAV for the GTN's and it in fact currently (apparently?) has a limited VNAV capability already. My understanding is it's only a 'one-step' VNAV currently but full STAR VNAV is coming.The guy explaining it to me said something about the 'snow flake' (to do w/ the PL21?) but that means nothing to me as I've never 'flown' a PL21 yet. They apparently are working on full VNAV as well as adding real-time weight tracking via actual fuel burn just like the FMS provides. Not sure if it does fuel burn predictions (fuel to fix or destination) however.

Waiting to hear if we can keep the FMS along w/ the dual GTN's. Some versions (later serial numbers) of the PL21 can do three FMS (Cessna has a SB to enable it) but I'm still waiting to hear if our serial number can use that SB. If we can't retain and use three FMS inputs I think the 1L will get pulled. The LVP options of the GTN's and other user functionality just out-weigh (I think?) the benefit of the UNS, even if we upgraded to the 1LW. Some of the limitations w/ the 1LW are that we still need an ADSB solution, as well we'd need to install newer transponders and try and shoe horn that in while retaining the old Collins flip/flop radios. Our airframe doesn't have that newer LCD style radio's that interconnect w/ the UNS so every freq becomes a 'dial and flip'. The shoe-horning may include splitting the existing radio stack and taking the ADF and transponders out to replace w/ two GTX-345's or similar. At the end of the day, to do all of that and stay with some flavor of UNS FMS would cost nearly $200K. (well in excess of the dual 750 install; as a side note, a 750/650 install would be about 1/2 that much)

I'm looking forward to the CJ2! I've never been PIC on anything more than a C425XP so it'll be a nice step forward. What about the flight deck did you find uncomfortable? I'm 6'4 and had 'some' struggle folding up to get in but once I was, it didn't seem too terrible? (I didn't sit in it for 3-4hrs though either)
 
JerryFlyGuy said:
Kent we're putting in a GMA 35(remote) audio panel (not dual however). Not familiar w/ an PTC functionality.
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I think the 35 will do it too, I think the only difference with the "c" is Bluetooth.

Check into the Garmin Telligence voice command system. It's quite useful, especially if you're going to be single pilot.

Not sure if it does fuel burn predictions (fuel to fix or destination) however.
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It does in my Mooney. It's hooked up to the transducer for the Shadin MiniFlo that I have. Not sure of its compatibility with fuel flow transducers on jets, but there's hope. :)
 
Jerry, you're 6'4"? Uh oh... I'm 5'9" and I felt jammed in there. The seat isn't very adjustable - almost no recline and limited lumbar, etc., just a very barebones product considering it's from IPECO, but it's a small space to work with, I suppose. Ergonomically, you have the trim wheel up against your right knee and it you really can't rest your leg against it or it will interfere with the trim (which rocks a little forward and aft constantly in cruise.) Then the panel itself seems to have protrusions and edges to push into you uncomfortably just about everywhere. And you have stuff on the panel that's just a pain to reach... the 525 is a bit of a Frankenstein. Old bits and new bits thrown together, which is how Cessna makes their jets, usually. That said, I did like the aircraft itself for what it could do.

The most workload intensive part of the airplane is managing the windshield. Lots to do there especially descending from altitude into a warm/tropical environment. I remember one night landing late in St. Lucia and despite having everything going per the book, including defogging on well before TOD that I still fogged up as I taxied in. I think you've got about a half dozen controls to manage the windshield, LOL.

As far as the Garmins are concerned I'd be sure to be certain that VNAV support is coming from the mfgr. You really don't want to have to fly that ship down an arrival one crossing at a time. That's a sure altitude deviation coming your way. The "snowflake" on the PL21 is just the magenta VNAV profile star which appears on the right side of the PFD next to the altimeter and VSI. It guides you down on the vertical profile.

The 750s/650s are really nice units. I have a 650 in my Twin Comanche and love it.
 
Kent, thanks I'll look into it. The install quote does include the fuel flow sensors from Shadin so maybe they've got it figured out now? One thing I've learned w/ the GTN's is that Garmin has made them robust enough to be able to continuously make improvements on the software side. What "wasn't included" a year ago, very well could be now!

Yeah, the 425 was similar pretty much locked down for space but I survived! Never had issues w/ the windshield like that thought! (425 drivers had a secret weapon for their windshields! 3/4" PVC pipe elbow on the overhead vent and you're golden! However I don't know if that works on the 525)

Yeah as far as I've been told, the VNAV functionality is coming and has a single step down already available. I flew the 425 on STARs pretty regularly and did the step down's manually and that was w/out any Vspeed control (just pitch on the FANTASTIC (not) Cessna autopilot <facepalm>) so while it's a pain, I'm hoping its not impossible!
 
JerryFlyGuy said:
Kent, thanks I'll look into it. The install quote does include the fuel flow sensors from Shadin so maybe they've got it figured out now?
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Good deal, should work fine then.

Yeah as far as I've been told, the VNAV functionality is coming and has a single step down already available. I flew the 425 on STARs pretty regularly and did the step down's manually and that was w/out any Vspeed control (just pitch on the FANTASTIC (not) Cessna autopilot <facepalm>) so while it's a pain, I'm hoping its not impossible!
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I was pretty surprised at how basic the VNAV functionality was on the GTN 750, considering the G1000 does it pretty well. The 750 doesn't even do what the 430/530 could with a default VNAV setting that could show you descent rate to airport, for example. On the 750, you have to specifically set it every time to get that, even if the parameters (besides the destination) don't change.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin was working on that. Sure seems like it'd help them sell some more G500/G600/TXi units as well.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Good deal, should work fine then.



I was pretty surprised at how basic the VNAV functionality was on the GTN 750, considering the G1000 does it pretty well. The 750 doesn't even do what the 430/530 could with a default VNAV setting that could show you descent rate to airport, for example. On the 750, you have to specifically set it every time to get that, even if the parameters (besides the destination) don't change.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if Garmin was working on that. Sure seems like it'd help them sell some more G500/G600/TXi units as well.
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Interestingly though even though it does that way poorly, it’ll build a 3 degree glideslope to nearly any runway with the “Visual” approach thing.

So strange that VNAV is bad but it can build fake glideslopes. Ha.
 
Right Nate?!? Like WTH? I'd think they could easily VNAV but so far it's not a thing.

At this point I'm sitting here re-thinking the entire thing. Might end up just going w/ a UNS-1LW and the ADS/B that I have to and call it good. That's not what I want to do but it'd maintain the VNAV as well as the general integrity of the existing Avionics package. Evaluating that option right now anyway.
 
Most of our PC12's have 650/750 and it's a great pair. The huge downside is the lack of VNAV (let's face it, the way it does it is not really a VNAV at all). I'm also pretty sure you can't couple an autopilot to the VNAV, it's advisory only.
I've never felt I needed 750/750, 650/750 is plenty.
 
Thanks mtuomi that's a big help! Do you use ADS/B weather or XM? Traffic ? Charts?

At this point I think you are correct in that you can't couple an autopilot to the GTN's proposed decent rate however that lack is giving up an existing function as coupling VNAV to the autopilot is an option w/ the currently installed FMS. So in effect, we're giving up functionality by moving to the GTN (if I decide to still go that route).
 
JerryFlyGuy said:
Right Nate?!? Like WTH? I'd think they could easily VNAV but so far it's not a thing.

At this point I'm sitting here re-thinking the entire thing. Might end up just going w/ a UNS-1LW and the ADS/B that I have to and call it good. That's not what I want to do but it'd maintain the VNAV as well as the general integrity of the existing Avionics package. Evaluating that option right now anyway.
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That's the voice of reason and experience talking. The 750 is mostly eye candy by comparison to VNAV functionality. I can't envision a scenario in which I'd willingly give that up just for an updated Navigator.
 
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