Drone flies into fans at MLB game

[James331]

On American soil the the quad copters are more dangerous.

Please cite proof.

Show me one death, people die all the time in this country, fall off ladders, crash their cars into trees, eat themself into a MI, electric shock from a power line, killed by cows, murder, cancer, the list goes on.

So show me one who was killed by a drone

 

[MassPilot]

Please cite proof.

Show me one death, people die all the time in this country, fall off ladders, crash their cars into trees, eat themself into a MI, electric shock from a power line, killed by cows, murder, cancer, the list goes on.

So show me one who was killed by a drone

Do you not understand that danger doesn't necessarily mean death?

 

[gsengle]

Ahh, call someone citing facts you don't like and that arnt dance around the flag as a tin foil hat lol.

Actually a tin foil hat would be overkill..... BECAUSE NO ONE HAS BEEN KILLED BY A QUADCOPTER lol


But I'm sorry I hurt your pro government feelings, so I'll re phrase.



You based on facts (22 deaths per year) you are more likely to be killed by a cow than a quadcopter.



Better?

How about this. How many mid air collisions between every type of man made aircraft manned and or unmanned happen every year? Versus how many targeted assassinations on Us soil by American government drone strikes a year.

We can all pick and choose our numbers... better?

I'm all for protecting our civil liberties but I distrust my fellow citizens as much as I distrust the government.

And finally drone numbers are growing, and we have limited statistical history.


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[James331]

Do you not understand that danger doesn't necessarily mean death?

Do you not understand proof?

What you believe is irrelevant, I go off history and evidence.

Cows, ants, hamburgers, have all proven to be more dangerous than quadcopter, don't even get me started on wildlife and aircraft.

These drones didn't just come out, drones have been around for a while now, a despite the tantalizing fear mongering, and the best efforts of some really bad decision makers flying quadcopters, NOT ONE plane has suffered major damage, NOT ONE person killed.

Guess we're all just like lottery level "lucky"? ....or maybe drones aren't the boogie man after all.

How about this. How many mid air collisions between every type of man made aircraft manned and or unmanned happen every year? Versus how many targeted assassinations on Us soil by American government drone strikes a year.

We can all pick and choose our numbers...


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EXACTLY!!!!


And I would have irrational fears if I happily flew planes all the time without fear, but worried I was going to be assassinated by the government.

Just as being scared of a quadcopter is a irrational fear.

 

[MassPilot]

Do you not understand proof?

What you believe is irrelevant, I go off history and evidence.

Cows, ants, hamburgers, have all proven to be more dangerous than quadcopter, don't even get me started on wildlife and aircraft.

These drones didn't just come out, drones have been around for a while now, a despite the tantalizing fear mongering, and the best efforts of some really bad decision makers flying quadcopters, NOT ONE plane has suffered major damage, NOT ONE person killed.

Guess we're all just like lottery level "lucky"? ....or maybe drones aren't the boogie man after all.

If you got hit in the face by a quad copter and it cut open your eye would you still claim they're not dangerous because it didn't kill you?

Now I get that data and statistics matter but if that was all that mattered then the FAA would just certify any new plane without scrutiny and just wait until someone was killed before they started looking at it.

 

[James331]

If you got hit in the face by a quad copter and it cut open your eye would you still claim they're not dangerous because it didn't kill you?

Now I get that data and statistics matter but if that was all that mattered then the FAA would just certify any new plane without scrutiny and just wait until someone was killed before they started looking at it.

If if if.

Yes let's not let silly things like facts and history get in the way of some good fear mongering and government overreach.

Remember, more likely to be killed by a cow bro......... fact

 

[Skyrys62]

I kind of get the impression that everyone doesn't agree here.

But I'm not sure.. I better read it again.

 

[Direct C51]

James that is not how statistics work. How is the exposure of an every day American to falling hobby drones the same as the exposure to an every day American to an intentional hellfire UAS strike. We aren't all Al Queda commanders living in Yeman preaching Jihad, so we probably don't have the same exposure to hellfire strikes as the Awalki family. However we do all have Similar exposure to hobby drones as this lady:
http://mynewsla.com/crime/2016/09/27/drone-falls-on-woman-at-usc-frat-party-lawsuit/

Look I'm not trying to say we all need to be afraid of hobby drones. My concern is maybe a half a tick above not at all, but trying to compare the danger to military UAS drone strikes is outlandish at best. Come on man.

 

[Todd82]

Not really sure why drones should get special treatment. Model rocketry clubs, sky divers, hang gliders, etc., just about everyone who "uses" the air has to follow some basic airmanship rules. Why should drones be excluded? I'm not saying we need membership fees or a registry, but there should be some accountability here and basic etiquette to follow

@James331 My bigger issue with drones, is not the media hysteria behind it (I agree with you there, seriously read that link), but it's annoying to my personal private property to have these things buzzing by, or generally annoying when I'm hiking on a trail and I hear one of them cruising over head. Maybe it's just my neck of the woods, but where I live and where I frequent I see tons of these things (more on that below)


I completely agree. The drone thing is starting to become madness. My house (and the subdivision) backs up to a canyon and we have a neighbor who flies his drone up and down the canyon and right along the perimeter of the homes. Technically the drone is not *over* my property, but hearing that whirling thing buzzing maybe 50 yards from the house starts to get irritating and I do find it intrusive

My neighborhood abuts to woods, and has amazing sunsets. Guy a few houses down lately likes to photograph sunsets with his brand new flying gadget, unfortunately he does it hovering over my backyard for a better view.

In my backyard we have a hot tub, I don't necessarily appreciate someone with cameras hovering over my wife in her swimsuit. Now that it's becoming pool season I'm sure the next door neighbor really won't appreciate it hovering over his teenage daughters in their pool either.

Our solution? Firearms would cause issues with the authorities. But a power washer aimed at it would get the point across. A high powered sling shot? Now you're talking. And, for now, if I happen to be in the hot tub without a power washer or sling shot nearby, let's just say his sunset video is going to be accompanied by a "full moon."

 

[James331]

I kind of get the impression that everyone doesn't agree here.

But I'm not sure.. I better read it again.

On POA, nah

...but trying to compare the danger to military UAS drone strikes is outlandish at best. Come on man.

Exactly my point.

Irrational fear

...I don't necessarily appreciate someone with cameras hovering over my wife in her swimsuit. Now that it's becoming pool season I'm sure the next door neighbor really won't appreciate it hovering over his teenage daughters in their pool either.

Our solution? Firearms would cause issues with the authorities. But a power washer aimed at it would get the point across. A high powered sling shot? Now you're talking. And, for now, if I happen to be in the hot tub without a power washer or sling shot nearby, let's just say his sunset video is going to be accompanied by a "full moon."

First off, I know you probably think your wife and kids are attractive, but most folks really arnt interested, it's a little conceded to think you're important enough, or wife and daughter attractive enough, for someone to risk trouble just to get a glimpse of them in a swim suit.


Here's my solution, don't be a dick, don't go trying to cause damage to others property, just go over and talk with your neghibor like a normal human being, be nice, might even make a friend.

 

[Sundancer]

That 8yr old and that 16yr old needed killing eh?

In fact seeing how there was no due process, there but the grace of god go you too

But hey, based on facts and history YOU are more likely to be murdered by federal drone strike than a hobby drone crashing into your bug smasher. So if you ain't worried about that hellfire missile, STFU about the kid and his quad copter.

Try reading with comprehension, and note I didn't comment on the kid and his quad; and no, the kids didn't need killing, but the adjacent target sure did, and since we ain't clairvoyant or infallible, ****e happens. Grow up a wee bit, and understand perfect justice isn't in the human cards. You do the best you can, try to be careful, and even risk your own people's lives when attempting to minimize harm to innocents. Sometimes it doesn't work. . . And get a sense of proportion when you're out shopping for maturity, as well; if you can't distinguish between our acts, efforts, and policies, and those of our opponents, then STFU until you can do some critcal analysis worthy of consideration. . .

 

[tinerj]

Early morning, no coffee, I wondered why anyone could write this much about a drone hitting fans -- you know those circular things that blow air.

Probably got shredded.

 

[pete480]

If you don't believe colliding with forty lbs of metal that happens to fly is 1) possible and 2) potentially life threatening, you're either trolling us, or are obstinate because a political philosophy trumps common sense. Nah, never seen that happen in the good ole USA....

Someday a jet will come down, and then watch the overreaction. All of which could be avoided by just using common sense from day one. But that's too easy.

 

[RudyP]

I'm shocked that some of you don't see the glaring parallels to the non-GA masses who would happily regulate our 'little airplanes' into oblivion if they could because they a) don't see any direct benefit to themselves from the freedom/fun/enjoyment of the activity b) perceive it as a risk to them if something goes wrong. The major difference is GA planes HAVE (many times) fallen out of the sky into homes, businesses, vehicles schoolyards, etc and taken innocent lives on the ground while drones have not.

I'm not completely aligned with James' argument centered around the military drones that are tasked with killing but I agree with him that it is pretty hypocritical to want to regulate the crap out of hobby quadcopter while preserving GA freedom. Just because you like one and not the other doesn't make Joe Quadcopter enthusiast with his DJI any more wrong in his similar argument for freedom to operate.

Any yes, I know you guys will say that GA is far more regulated than quad copters as it is today but that's because regulatory burden has to be commensurate with the real differences in risk not held to an absolute and constant standard (e.g., apply GA style oversight/regulation to drones) or even some sliding scale thereof. Fact of the matter is there are more quad copters in this country today than there are active GA airplanes and I'll put a $20 bet that the next person killed (or majorly injured) on the ground by an accident will be from a highly regulated GA plane rather than a 5lb DJI flown recklessly.

 

[gsengle]

Yep and then watch the overreaction by government. The best way to protect our right to fly is sensible rules...


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[Skyrys62]

I'll put a $20 bet that the next person killed (or majorly injured) on the ground by an accident will be from a highly regulated GA plane rather than a 5lb DJI flown recklessly.

Unless the guy flies that drone into me, my family or my property. Then he will be next person (majorly injured).
Of course, unless there's no way I can identify the stupid fu*k.

Which is really what the issue is here. Not about freedom or oppression.
No one is saying you can't fly your toys. Whether it's a GA plane or a drone. It's just about creating a responsible atmosphere in which to do so.

 

[gsengle]

And taking accountability for your actions. Which is why we should be able to identify the operator.


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[MassPilot]

I'm shocked that some of you don't see the glaring parallels to the non-GA masses who would happily regulate our 'little airplanes' into oblivion if they could because they a) don't see any direct benefit to themselves from the freedom/fun/enjoyment of the activity b) perceive it as a risk to them if something goes wrong. The major difference is GA planes HAVE (many times) fallen out of the sky into homes, businesses, vehicles schoolyards, etc and taken innocent lives on the ground while drones have not.

I'm not completely aligned with James' argument centered around the military drones that are tasked with killing but I agree with him that it is pretty hypocritical to want to regulate the crap out of hobby quadcopter while preserving GA freedom. Just because you like one and not the other doesn't make Joe Quadcopter enthusiast with his DJI any more wrong in his similar argument for freedom to operate.

Any yes, I know you guys will say that GA is far more regulated than quad copters as it is today but that's because regulatory burden has to be commensurate with the real differences in risk not held to an absolute and constant standard (e.g., apply GA style oversight/regulation to drones) or even some sliding scale thereof. Fact of the matter is there are more quad copters in this country today than there are active GA airplanes and I'll put a $20 bet that the next person killed (or majorly injured) on the ground by an accident will be from a highly regulated GA plane rather than a 5lb DJI flown recklessly.

I believe in sensible regulations for drones just like I believe in sensible regulations for GA aircraft.

 

[Skyrys62]

The FAA tried to start a Drone Watchdog task force.
However, the dogs were too heavy.

 

[RudyP]

I believe in sensible regulations for drones just like I believe in sensible regulations for GA aircraft.

A very reasonable statement on the surface but who gets to define what is 'sensible?' Like 'common sense gun control' I think this is very much a moving target depending on what side of the issue you stand.

 

[denverpilot]

Yep and then watch the overreaction by government. The best way to protect our right to fly is sensible rules...

What right? Our government says you have no right to fly. It's a privilege they bestow on you.

 

[MassPilot]

What right? Our government says you have no right to fly. It's a privilege they bestow on you.

That's also true for driving a car.

 

[gsengle]

Although that's arguable, whether it's a right or privilege, you both realize we are in agreement.

If we don't accept "reasonable" rules now, the majority (per the mayflower compact and subsequent precedent) may choose to stop us entirely...


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[Skyrys62]

We should have the right to fly.
We should have the right to be protected. (even if just from the aggravation of drones)
What's the way achieve both?

There are local noise ordinances that I appreciate. Does that limit my freedom to blast music at 11pm out in my yard?
Yes...but I'll take that any day as long as it limits the other arrogant, inconsiderate dorks that want to do it.

Pet ordinances too. Pet's must be registered, shots, etc. Also they must be on a leash. And, you have to clean up after them.

Has noise ever killed anyone?
Has pet poo ever killed anyone?
Not that I'm aware of, but I dang sure appreciate the regulation.

There's no N number on a pile of pet poo. I know that, so don't go there.
But the little doggies that come sniffing around the yard looking for a place to drop off my gifts have a tag number for identification, and I've used it, and solved the problem.

 

[denverpilot]

Although that's arguable, whether it's a right or privilege, you both realize we are in agreement.

If we don't accept "reasonable" rules now, the majority (per the mayflower compact and subsequent precedent) may choose to stop us entirely...


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That's what every generation has said as more and more rules are applied to their "privilege".

The POH for my 1975 airplane is pamphlet sized. The AFM for the exact same airplane is now a $350 book serialized to the airplane. I replaced my "official" one for $30.

 

[denverpilot]

That's what every generation has said as more and more rules are applied to their "privilege".

The POH for my 1975 airplane is pamphlet sized. The AFM for the exact same airplane is now a $350 book serialized to the airplane. I replaced my "official" one for $30.

P.S. I'm slightly older than the airplane so all of that "reaaosnableness" has happened in a single generation. Too many Boomers, not enough jobs, so they created expensive bureaucracies. People actually think the bureaucracies are necessary now.

 

[gsengle]

P.S. I'm slightly older than the airplane so all of that "reaaosnableness" has happened in a single generation. Too many Boomers, not enough jobs, so they created expensive bureaucracies. People actually think the bureaucracies are necessary now.

That said there is also a reason we haven't had a single airline death in years. And my Mooney AFM from 96 is excellent.


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[Tantalum]

Too many Boomers, not enough jobs, so they created expensive bureaucracies. People actually think the bureaucracies are necessary now.

I completely agree.. most bureaucracies aren't self sustaining (this generation loves that word) and many of the salaries for them are far greater than same or similar positions in the private sector. Very few private sector jobs now offer the type of compensation or pension package that these other agencies do... Other than the brave men and women of the military most politicians are just in it for themselves, not to serve country or constituents (personal opinion)

That said there is also a reason we haven't had a single airline death in years.

And I make one big exception for the FAA, while the VA, DMV, etc., are an embarrassment I do find that the FAA regulations are actually very pragmatic for the most part in ensuring our skies are kept safe. I know the certification process is expensive and a lot of people here find the FAA to be unduly burdensome and cost-prohibitive, however at this point I think keeping the accident rate and fatality rate down can only help GA in the big picture.. and the FAA is making some small steps to try and correct that, that's a big move on their part

 

[denverpilot]

That said there is also a reason we haven't had a single airline death in years. And my Mooney AFM from 96 is excellent.

Equating the training airline crews receive to light aircraft paperwork and regulations is a loooooong stretch. And there's been plenty of airline deaths since the early seventies when America became infatuated with large national level government bureaucracies.

Many in airliners built right here under all that mountains of paperwork.

It's the training, not the paperwork, that's making the record better. Asiana crash was a training and culture problem. It's not like there's not training experts who don't know how the autothrottle system works on a 777. Airplane was fine.

With the possible exception of maintenance oversight, where that may be better now, but we have a solid example of that not working properly at all at Allegiant within the past week or so.

 

[Tantalum]

Asiana crash was a training and culture problem

That whole thing to me was so bonkers, it is honestly the same as knowingly driving into a brick wall

 

[gsengle]

Training is also driven by a bureaucracy and regulations. All part of the same system. It's all a trade off, but on balance the FAA had been very successful in its dual missions.


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[denverpilot]

And I make one big exception for the FAA, while the VA, DMV, etc., are an embarrassment I do find that the FAA regulations are actually very pragmatic for the most part in ensuring our skies are kept safe. I know the certification process is expensive and a lot of people here find the FAA to be unduly burdensome and cost-prohibitive, however at this point I think keeping the accident rate and fatality rate down can only help GA in the big picture.. and the FAA is making some small steps to try and correct that, that's a big move on their part

Generally I agree on the pragmatism except when it comes to stamping parts you can literally buy at NAPA for 1/10 the price. Avionics certification is also a joke *if* an experimental with a panel full of their priced gadgetry can literally be 1000' away inside a cloud and doing the exact same IFR flight anyone with a certified panel is.

There's been NO evidence those cheaper avionics can't be deployed as safely as the certified ones. No accidents, no pragmatism. And the promises of a "streamlined" certification process haven't born fruit in over a decade.

The accident and fatality rates have bottomed for the most part and haven't changed significantly in almost three decades either.

 

[Tantalum]

Generally I agree on the pragmatism except when it comes to stamping parts you can literally buy at NAPA for 1/10 the price

For sure, I do wonder if the experimental market ever *really* takes off then what that would mean for everyone else.

 

[Skyrys62]

This thread is getting old.

How about something totally new... like a high wing vs. low wing thread?

 

[denverpilot]

Training is also driven by a bureaucracy and regulations. All part of the same system. It's all a trade off, but on balance the FAA had been very successful in its dual missions.

Part 121 operators write their own training plans. FAA merely observes and approves or disapproves.

The simulators got better. That's probably the real change since the 70s.

Getting FAA to approve sim time at the GA level was a couple of decades of pulling teeth. They wanted nothing to do with it. I've got logged sim time on a PC with a VGA monitor that's laughable stuff, all because FAA let Jepp sell a PC with a serial number sticker slapped to the side of it for ten times the price of a far better system available months after theirs was released.

Most of what you're seeing as "good regulations" became so because someone got in a bureaucrat's face and told them to get out of the way... since about the 80s anyway.

Pilots have a "nostalgia" that clouds their view of what actually provides safety and better training and pilots.

30s-60s? Free for all. It needed some regulation. THIS is the era pilots get stuck in their heads when measuring whether the bureaucracy was and is still, "worth it".

70s? It started to become overbearing but was also the heyday so the accident numbers look high. Just more flying. In spam cans made from automotive parts and 1930s farm tractor engines.

80s? By then, expensive and overregulated. Liability and Torts essentially killed GA. FAA do nothing to defend what they approved in the 70s to juries. Not a finger lifted. Not an announcement that they'd find a way to push better tech into aircraft. A lawsuit about a guy flying his airplane into a mountain and whether or not a seat track held during that crash, shut down GA manufacturing for a decade. FAA was nowhere to be found, and yet, they approved that equipment.

And real electronics at low cost started to hit the scene around this time.

90s? "Plans" for "NexGen" were written... to deploy a 90s vintage data system by... 2020.

And since the 90s? The regs have turned what a $10 GPS chipset can do in any $100 retail device -- into a $10,000 device because it has FAA approval. For no documented specific safety reasons. Proven by the experimental market building them for 1/3 of that retail and FAA approving those to fly right alongside the non-experimental ones, inside the same clouds.

 

[denverpilot]

This thread is getting old.

How about something totally new... like a high wing vs. low wing thread?

Time to revive Airplane on a Treadmill? LOL.

 

[James331]

Try reading with comprehension, and note I didn't comment on the kid and his quad; and no, the kids didn't need killing, but the adjacent target sure did, and since we ain't clairvoyant or infallible, ****e happens. Grow up a wee bit, and understand perfect justice isn't in the human cards. You do the best you can, try to be careful, and even risk your own people's lives when attempting to minimize harm to innocents. Sometimes it doesn't work. . . And get a sense of proportion when you're out shopping for maturity, as well; if you can't distinguish between our acts, efforts, and policies, and those of our opponents, then STFU until you can do some critcal analysis worthy of consideration. . .

Let's edit that a little

Grow up a wee bit, and understand perfect drone flying isn't in the human cards. You do the best you can, try to be careful, and even risk your own people's lives when attempting to minimize harm to innocents. Sometimes it doesn't work. . . And get a sense of proportion when you're out shopping for maturity, as well; if you can't distinguish between our acts, efforts, and policies, and those of oppression, then STFU until you can do some critcal analysis worthy of consideration. . .

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Getting soaked by the rain.
Getting hit by a foul ball.
Getting 32 ounces of beer poured on your head by the drunk behind you.
Listening to the swearing and cursing.
Getting in a fist fight.
Getting hit by a drone.

They are all part of the baseball stadium experience.

If you don't want the full experience, then watch baseball on TV.

 

[Kritchlow]

Getting soaked by the rain.
Getting hit by a foul ball.
Getting 32 ounces of beer poured on your head by the drunk behind you.
Listening to the swearing and cursing.
Getting in a fist fight.
Getting hit by a drone.

They are all part of the baseball stadium experience.

If you don't want the full experience, then watch baseball on TV.

I only wish I could get a 32 oz beer at the game...
And if I could it would be at the booth, thus down to 20 oz by the time I made it to my seat.

 

[Sundancer]

Let's edit that a little

Grow up a wee bit, and understand perfect drone flying isn't in the human cards. You do the best you can, try to be careful, and even risk your own people's lives when attempting to minimize harm to innocents. Sometimes it doesn't work. . . And get a sense of proportion when you're out shopping for maturity, as well; if you can't distinguish between our acts, efforts, and policies, and those of oppression, then STFU until you can do some critcal analysis worthy of consideration. . .

You're arguing with yourself - I don't much care about toy drones, one way or the other. They seem a modest threat to me, and probably why I didn't comment on any aspect of your drone freedom rants. You (sometimes, on occasion) talk a bit louder than you listen. . .