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CTLSi

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CTLSi
With the demise of Eclipse and Epic the VLJ makers just shrank to a very small exclusive and expensive club of Cirrus SR50 @ $2m, the HondaJet @ $3.2m, and the Cessna @ $2.8m.

All great products, but far outside the single-pilot-owner cost picture. That is unless you are Tom Cruise.

Since startup aviation companies appear to not have the muscle or the money to get one of these certified and to market, what might be a better way to get jet performance at a cost around $1m?

How about a four seater, instead of a 6 seater stretched ICON A5 with a small jet or turbo engine mounted on the wing where the Rotax engine is now? Betcha that would come close. Of course, gotta take away the boat hull too...
 
CTLSi said:
what might be a better way to get jet performance at a cost around $1m?.
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You cant , Lancair Evo probably the only thing close. 3 million is cheap to the prospective customers. They don't need to bring the price down to $1M
 
NJP_MAN said:
You cant , Lancair Evo probably the only thing close. 3 million is cheap to the prospective customers. They don't need to bring the price down to $1M
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Lancair is a kit. I am talking about certified manufactured aircraft. Who pays $3m for someone else's build mess?
 
The question about a manufacturer building jet performance aircraft for 1 million is simply answered. It can't be done. To type certify a plane it seems costs more money than can be recovered buy the sale of the airframe itself (at least short term). MX and and fleet service seem to be a area where some money can be brought back into the company years after production (and warranty period expiration). If you are interested in a Cirrus V50 or honda jet, then you can afford it at 3 million. A new SR22T FIKi. Is in the $800-900 k range and it still has pistons.
 
CTLSi said:
Lancair is a kit. I am talking about certified manufactured aircraft. Who pays $3m for someone else's build mess?
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It's technically a "kit", but I think you'll find that most have been "professionally assembled" by well qualified "helpers".
 
dans2992 said:
It's technically a "kit", but I think you'll find that most have been "professionally assembled" by well qualified "helpers".
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I took a look at the Lancair Evolution. It's a nice aircraft...but the kit cost is $570k and the engine (turboprop) is $550k. That leave a million bucks to build it, end cost over $2.2m when done. At that price, may as well get the Cirrus SR50 and it's factory built.

That's the point btw, a million (or make it a million and a half) buck VLJ. If someone can do it, they will become the next Cessna.
 
NJP_MAN said:
The question about a manufacturer building jet performance aircraft for 1 million is simply answered. It can't be done. To type certify a plane it seems costs more money than can be recovered buy the sale of the airframe itself (at least short term). MX and and fleet service seem to be a area where some money can be brought back into the company years after production (and warranty period expiration). If you are interested in a Cirrus V50 or honda jet, then you can afford it at 3 million. A new SR22T FIKi. Is in the $800-900 k range and it still has pistons.
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When an overhaul on a P&W turbine for a Citation costs $730,000 it's unreasonable think you're going to get a new jet for $1M.
 
Talk Sonex into producing a certified version of the SubSonex? :)
 
CTLSi said:
That's the point btw, a million (or make it a million and a half) buck VLJ. If someone can do it, they will become the next Cessna.
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How does this come anywhere close to comparing to Cessna? Building a jet that .000001% of the population can afford and selling a hundred vs building airplanes nearly every pilot can afford and selling tens of thousands.
 
Direct C51 said:
How does this come anywhere close to comparing to Cessna? Building a jet that .000001% of the population can afford and selling a hundred vs building airplanes nearly every pilot can afford and selling tens of thousands.
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To be fair, most pilots cannot afford even a new 172. Probably 5% or less can actually.
 
Direct C51 said:
How does this come anywhere close to comparing to Cessna? Building a jet that .000001% of the population can afford and selling a hundred vs building airplanes nearly every pilot can afford and selling tens of thousands.
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The idea of a low cost but sophisticated VLJ is to create the market. If the price is low enough, the makers will carve right into the high end prop market.
 
CTLSi said:
The idea of a low cost but sophisticated VLJ is to create the market. If the price is low enough, the makers will carve right into the high end prop market.
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It would have to be a kit. Certification costs are prohibitive of the $1M price point
 
CTLSi said:
I took a look at the Lancair Evolution. It's a nice aircraft...but the kit cost is $570k and the engine (turboprop) is $550k. That leave a million bucks to build it, end cost over $2.2m when done. At that price, may as well get the Cirrus SR50 and it's factory built.

That's the point btw, a million (or make it a million and a half) buck VLJ. If someone can do it, they will become the next Cessna.
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Are you sure those numbers are correct? Completed Evo's are listed online between $1.1 and $1.5 million.
 
You could always get your own Lear for $500k and a metal landing calculator while flying to airventure as a student pilot
 
NJP_MAN said:
You could always get your own Lear for $500k and a metal landing calculator while flying to airventure as a student pilot
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With dry ice and a propane tank, while loaded above max gross. Don't forget the zoom climb on departure.
 
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So what we've got is a student pilot flying a Lear 25 who miscalculates using his trusty metal landing calculator and stalls when he deploys flaps in his base turn, and the ensuing fireball from all the propane makes the country declare a new Nagasaki day. :goofy:
 
CTLSi said:
With the demise of Eclipse and Epic the VLJ makers just shrank to a very small exclusive and expensive club of Cirrus SR50 @ $2m, the HondaJet @ $3.2m, and the Cessna @ $2.8m.
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The rumor of Eclipse's demise is greatly exaggerated!

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
Abram said:
The rumor of Eclipse's demise is greatly exaggerated!

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
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What information do you have. The press says they layed everyone off and stopped production.
 
Honda jet? I hear you meet the most boring people in a Honda :rofl:


If you can afford to feed a jet I'd go L-39 all the way.
Not too bad price wise ether.
 

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CTLSi said:
What information do you have. The press says they layed everyone off and stopped production.
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Don't misunderstand me; this is definitely not good news, but it is also not a catastrophic event.

The messaging to owners and the press has been very consistent with this clip from an article published on the KRQE website:

Albuquerque’s Eclipse Aerospace confirms it has laid off a significant number of employees at its New Mexico aircraft factory. The company would not specify an exact number, but several employees were seen Friday morning carrying out personal effects in boxes.

Lundeen said Eclipse will continue to manufacture planes and staff its service centers around the country, just at a slower pace and with a smaller staff.

“We’re very hopeful that when the economy recovers, and we start selling more aircraft that we will post positions for restaffing,” Lundeen said. “And we hope that these employees that were laid off today will reapply to come back to work for us.”

​

They continue to improve and maintain the existing fleet and that has proven to be a relatively successful model for the company, even if the 550 never sells. In a perfect world, of course, the market for light general aviation jets will improve and they will need to build more airplanes.

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
Abram said:
Don't misunderstand me; this is definitely not good news, but it is also not a catastrophic event.

The messaging to owners and the press has been very consistent with this clip from an article published on the KRQE website:
Albuquerque’s Eclipse Aerospace confirms it has laid off a significant number of employees at its New Mexico aircraft factory. The company would not specify an exact number, but several employees were seen Friday morning carrying out personal effects in boxes.

Lundeen said Eclipse will continue to manufacture planes and staff its service centers around the country, just at a slower pace and with a smaller staff.

“We’re very hopeful that when the economy recovers, and we start selling more aircraft that we will post positions for restaffing,” Lundeen said. “And we hope that these employees that were laid off today will reapply to come back to work for us.”

​
They continue to improve and maintain the existing fleet and that has proven to be a relatively successful model for the company, even if the 550 never sells. In a perfect world, of course, the market for light general aviation jets will improve and they will need to build more airplanes.

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
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You are an optimist. The aircraft is already a 10 year old design. And is priced the same as the carbon fiber wonder, the HondaJet. I don't think they make it.
 
CTLSi said:
With the demise of Eclipse and Epic the VLJ makers just shrank to a very small exclusive and expensive club of Cirrus SR50 @ $2m, the HondaJet @ $3.2m, and the Cessna @ $2.8m.

All great products, but far outside the single-pilot-owner cost picture. That is unless you are Tom Cruise.

Since startup aviation companies appear to not have the muscle or the money to get one of these certified and to market, what might be a better way to get jet performance at a cost around $1m?

How about a four seater, instead of a 6 seater stretched ICON A5 with a small jet or turbo engine mounted on the wing where the Rotax engine is now? Betcha that would come close. Of course, gotta take away the boat hull too...
Click to expand...

There is also the SJ-30 from Sino Swearingen. Is the Cirrus Jet being delivered now?

Has the Icon flown yet in current itteration? That program has eaten as much capital as a VLJ program already, so I don't really see saving anything. Considering the fuel required to run the turbine, the plane will need to be large enough for 6 seats anyway. The idea of having a jet or turboprop boat hull amphib is interesting, but small turbine projects don't work particularly well in unpressurized planes that don't have paying high load and lift requirements.

Now a 6 seat stretch of the Icon with the CD-330, that would be a very interesting airplane to me.
 
Henning said:
Is the Cirrus Jet being delivered now?
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Not sure if that was meant as a rhetorical question, but I'm pretty sure the answer is no - though I think they have two flying.

At least one is a "certification aircraft":

http://cirrusaircraft.com/news/first-flight-of-vision-sf50-jet-c-zero/

I wish them well. There is clearly some market for a $1.96 million jet, but it remains to be seen whether the numbers will support it as a profitable venture. With Chinese money behind it now, I think they have a lot more of a chance - but so many variables make it very tough to predict.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Not sure if that was meant as a rhetorical question, but I'm pretty sure the answer is no - though I think they have two flying.

At least one is a "certification aircraft":

http://cirrusaircraft.com/news/first-flight-of-vision-sf50-jet-c-zero/

I wish them well. There is clearly some market for a $1.96 million jet, but it remains to be seen whether the numbers will support it as a profitable venture. With Chinese money behind it now, I think they have a lot more of a chance - but so many variables make it very tough to predict.
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No, it was a serious question, I knew they were close, I didn't know if they had started to deliver yet.
 
Henning said:
No, it was a serious question, I knew they were close, I didn't know if they had started to deliver yet.
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They flew two to Osh. One was a conforming type. They were quoting more like 2.1M and have sold a lot of positions already. Anyway, 100% a game changer IMO. Large cabin, single engine, easy to operate, chute, FL280 limited, very accessible. All you need is money (I guess The Beatles were wrong).
 
CTLSi said:
You are an optimist. The aircraft is already a 10 year old design. And is priced the same as the carbon fiber wonder, the HondaJet. I don't think they make it.
Click to expand...

I love the Honda Jet and think it will be an incredible airplane when it is actually released to the public. I also think the Cirrus Jet is a really cool airplane with some great features and will definitely attract a segment of the marketplace when and if it is certified.

However, the real price of the Honda Jet will be north of $4.0 million dollars and the Cirrus Jet numbers are creeping up, as well. To the light jet market segment, the difference in acquisition cost of $1.2 million dollars is significant.

In addition, neither airplane is available right now and no one can tell you exactly when they will be available. If someone wants to get into a light jet today that will take them quickly and efficiently about 800 miles or so, the Eclipse is a great solution!

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
Alexb2000 said:
They flew two to Osh. One was a conforming type. They were quoting more like 2.1M and have sold a lot of positions already. Anyway, 100% a game changer IMO. Large cabin, single engine, easy to operate, chute, FL280 limited, very accessible. All you need is money (I guess The Beatles were wrong).
Click to expand...

It'll be interesting to see with the shift in the market how many of those positions will execute their option and if the positions have any value. A lot of those positions were sold before 2007 I bet.
 
Abram said:
I love the Honda Jet and think it will be an incredible airplane when it is actually released to the public. I also think the Cirrus Jet is a really cool airplane with some great features and will definitely attract a segment of the marketplace when and if it is certified.

However, the real price of the Honda Jet will be north of $4.0 million dollars and the Cirrus Jet numbers are creeping up, as well. To the light jet market segment, the difference in acquisition cost of $1.2 million dollars is significant.

In addition, neither airplane is available right now and no one can tell you exactly when they will be available. If someone wants to get into a light jet today that will take them quickly and efficiently about 800 miles or so, the Eclipse is a great solution!

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
Click to expand...

The HondJet is shipping now, the first production unit was brought to AirVenture. The price is $3.2 million.
 
Considering that a pressurized piston single costs more than $1 million, what makes you think that it's possible to build a jet for that amount? Also, if you could, how many guys are there out there who could afford one and would want one? I suspect most of those who could afford it would rather have a NetJets card.
 
CTLSi said:
The HondJet is shipping now, the first production unit was brought to AirVenture. The price is $3.2 million.
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I dont want to split hairs, but I cannot find any verification of that.

The Honda Jet website and news reports are that the first production aircraft flew for the first time in late June and was brought to AirVenture. However, it was not delivered yet. Indeed, they were looking for delivery dates in 2015 at the earliest, but I believe that was delayed.

As for price, according to the June 28, 2013 issue of the Wall Street Journal, online edition:

But unlike the Civic, the HondaJet is no economy model. With a sticker price of $4.5 million and a top speed of 489 mph, the winged Honda is more like an exotic supercar.​

or this:

Honda is a company driven by future-forward vision and planning. And in no case is this more evident than in the founding and subsequent development of the Honda Aircraft Company. When released for public sale in 2015, the HA-420 HondaJet will change the world of private aviation. Driven by the philosophy of Honda’s founder Soichiro Honda and brought to reality through the engineering prowess and drive of head engineer and CEO Michimasa Fujino, Honda’s collective intent is to change the face of entry-level corporate aviation through the introduction of the cloud breaking HA-420. Currently base priced at $4.5 million U.S., the HA-420 HondaJet will prove to be a cost effective competitor in the economy- driven world of charter, corporate lease and fractional executive jet ownership. - See more at: http://www.torquenews.com/1574/hond...ser-actual-delivery-date#sthash.g3vF6PT2.dpuf​

It is still an awesome airplane and I will look forward to seeing them up close and personal.

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
There's not much money to be made below the price point of a Citation. Same reason Cessna doesn't make the 150/152 anymore, so little demand for so little return.

Additionally, with Eclipse's idea of how service and parts are handled, I don't see them coming back in such a small market.
 
bartmc said:
Additionally, with Eclipse's idea of how service and parts are handled, I don't see them coming back in such a small market.
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The service centers are pretty good but the parts are definitely a weak spot for Eclipse. Eclipse claims that the parts costs are comparable to those of other light jet manufacturers, but it is a source of aggravation for the current owners.

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
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