dramatic increase in on demand fatalities

D

Dave Krall CFII

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Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
On demand charters showed an increase in fatalities from 16 to 43 in 2006 per NTSB stats report. What's happened to the training for these pilots?!?<g>
 
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Hiring at just above minimum requirements with a lesser degree of training in preparation?

Could one compare what 135 operators train with as opposed to 121 who get some six months or more upon arrival?
 
An increase by itself only tells a small part of the story. Did the number of on-demand flights/hours go up? Were there more operators?

So the real question is - did the rate of accidents go up and by how much?
 
I'm not questioning the accuracy of your statement, but where did you read this?
 
TMetzinger said:
An increase by itself only tells a small part of the story. Did the number of on-demand flights/hours go up? Were there more operators?

So the real question is - did the rate of accidents go up and by how much?
Click to expand...

While I agree with your questions in full, dead is still dead.
 
KennyFlys said:
Could one compare what 135 operators train with as opposed to 121 who get some six months or more upon arrival?
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in a word: no

at least in the small 135 operations. get into Jets and then maybe. My 135 training was all done in the airplane (no sim) and a lot of it was done on empty legs of paying charters. that helped keep the cost down some for the company. The airplane is expensive to operate but obviously I still have to be proficient.
 
tonycondon said:
in a word: no

at least in the small 135 operations. get into Jets and then maybe.
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I could say I work for a medium-sized 135 operator. When you are hired here you get 1 week of indoc, 1 week of King Air initial training at FlightSafety and 25 hours of IOE (supervised by another captain). Then you are on your own. Jet initial training is usually 2-3 weeks at FlightSafety depending on the airplane. In other words it's nothing close to 6 months. I didn't think airline training was that long anyway, maybe a few months but not 6. Let me also add that our hiring minimums are way in excess of anything required by any of the regionals so everyone starts with a reasonable amount of prior experience... even if it isn't turbine.
 
Everskyward said:
I could say I work for a medium-sized 135 operator. When you are hired here you get 1 week of indoc, 1 week of King Air initial training at FlightSafety and 25 hours of IOE (supervised by another captain). Then you are on your own. Jet initial training is usually 2-3 weeks at FlightSafety depending on the airplane. In other words it's nothing close to 6 months. I didn't think airline training was that long anyway, maybe a few months but not 6. Let me also add that our hiring minimums are way in excess of anything required by any of the regionals so everyone starts with a reasonable amount of prior experience... even if it isn't turbine.
Click to expand...

tonycondon said:
in a word: no

at least in the small 135 operations. get into Jets and then maybe. My 135 training was all done in the airplane (no sim) and a lot of it was done on empty legs of paying charters. that helped keep the cost down some for the company. The airplane is expensive to operate but obviously I still have to be proficient.
Click to expand...
I think between the two of you, it's valid to say that small operations are less likely when training is more personalized and it's "real" rather than being stuck in a sim for several hours. I think one tends to pick up more and retain more from actual scenarios.

I have to wonder, however, how many small operations are out there that do not provide as much a Tony has received? I guess that could only be answered by an analysis of accident reports including a synopsis of the operation's training program.
 
There's something fishy in these statistics.

If you look at the 2007 "on-demand" accidents, you find that of the 43 fatalities, 20 of them were in Alaska or Hawaii. For 2006, none of the accidents were in those two states.

For the 2007 AK and HI accidents, 15 of the fatalities were on sight-seeing flights.

I'm thinking that much of this big jump can just be attributed to flights that may have been categorized as part 91 GA before, now being categorized as part 135. This might also explain some of the improvement in GA stats.
-harry
 
Our training is 5 days of indoc (company rules, regs, SOPs, 121 rules, etc), 14 days of a/c specific systems training and CPT, then 10 sim sessions at Flight Safety before the oral and checkride. After the ride you do 25 hours of IOE (initial operating experience - flying with a check airman who evaluates your performance on the line) before being released to regular line flying. Upgrade training is about half as long...pretty much just a review of everything and a few refresher rides in the sim before taking your checkride. Most 135 operators that I have experience with out here have much higher mins than most of the Regionals do, and seem to have training regimens that are at least as hard as ours, if not more so.

This seems (to me, at least) like it must have something to do with an increased number of on demand flights.
 
mantakos said:
There's something fishy in these statistics.

If you look at the 2007 "on-demand" accidents, you find that of the 43 fatalities, 20 of them were in Alaska or Hawaii. For 2006, none of the accidents were in those two states.

For the 2007 AK and HI accidents, 15 of the fatalities were on sight-seeing flights.

I'm thinking that much of this big jump can just be attributed to flights that may have been categorized as part 91 GA before, now being categorized as part 135. This might also explain some of the improvement in GA stats.
-harry
Click to expand...

And of the 15, 4 were on the same helicopter in Princeville. Pilot and 3 of the 6 passengers. I think my one ride on a helicopter in Hawaii was enough. I know my wife isn't interested in doing it again.
 
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