DPEs must fail 20% of students?

Collin Kaufman

Collin Kaufman

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Ckflyer13
Let's start of by saying I have no idea if this is true or not. I heard from a DPE that there is an unwritten rule that they need to fail 2 out of every 10 students that are up for stage check. If the DPE passes too many students they'll be under investigation by the FAA.

If this is a thing, that's total BS. If a DPE passes 8 students, but then a 9th comes by and they did just fine on their checkride but they have to fail them because they don't want to deal with the FAA?? That's screwing over the students future with a failed checkride on their record. I find it hard to believe but wouldn't be too unrealistic considering it would be coming from the FAA. Has anyone heard something similar?
 
Collin Kaufman said:
I heard from a DPE that there is an unwritten rule that they need to fail 2 out of every 10 students that are up for stage check. If the DPE passes too many students they'll be under investigation by the FAA.
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You’re wavering between a CFI and DPE. Which are you talking about here?
 
LoLPilot said:
I’ve always just heard that CFI’s need 80% of their students to pass or THEY get investigated.
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I believe this is correct.

There is some truth to the DPE thing. Talked to a DPE and he was contacted by his fsdo inquiring about his 100% pass rate in the prior year. He told them that he only has a few CFIs who send him candidates and that those CFIs do a good job at teaching. He offered to randomly fail some candidates to fulfill the quota, but that he doesn't think this would be right. The fsdo backed off. A couple of months later he had someone show up for an instrument checkride who was outright dangerous and not receptive to correction, so he was able to check off that box.
 
I had a DPE for my multi test that asked if it was ok to bring an FAA guy along. Apparently his pass rated was viewed as too high. I wasn’t wild about it, but agreed. Fortunately the FAA guy couldn’t make it and I had agreed, so I didn’t antagonize the DPE.
 
weilke said:
I believe this is correct.
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That is not correct. There is no investigation that I am aware of. You will not be able to use your pass rate as a means of renewing your flight instructor certificate if your pass rate is below 80% however. That is probably what you and others are thinking of.

weilke said:
There is some truth to the DPE thing. Talked to a DPE and he was contacted by his fsdo inquiring about his 100% pass rate in the prior year.
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There is some truth to the DPE part although it isn't limited to CFI checkrides. If a DPEs pass rate is too high they will be contacted and asked about it.

From what I've been told by a DPE friend, it seems like the FAA hassles the examiners about almost everything. It is to the point where I don't think I'd want to be a DPE if I was one.
 
He had 20% of the fee in his checking account?!?
 
We had a terrific DPE who'd been giving check rides for a half century. Then the local FSDO got on his case, the rumor being his pass rate was too high. They started riding herd on him, then started pulling various examining authorities, starting with his ME, and then one by one the others til they forced him out. It was a shame. He was good, he was thorough and good to work with.
 
The DPEs I know are all frustrated with the system and the invasive oversight these days. Many are talking about hanging up their hats.
 
Maybe someone can cite the regulation or the portion of the designee management order that confirms this nonsense.
 
Even if it is true, it doesn't mean that if he has passed 8 in a row, he has to fail the next 2. For instance, if he examines 50 people in a year then he should probably have failed 10 of them. Doesn't sound bad to me. I don't want DPE's rubber stamping all their examinees.
 
JOhnH said:
Even if it is true, it doesn't mean that if he has passed 8 in a row, he has to fail the next 2. For instance, if he examines 50 people in a year then he should probably have failed 10 of them. Doesn't sound bad to me. I don't want DPE's rubber stamping all their examinees.
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Yes but that still is 20%. What if all of them performed perfectly? It just doesn't seem fair to fail people just because of some quota.
 
A good friend of mine is a DPE and he tells me that there are enough knuckleheads unprepared for their check rides that it is not a quota issue. Their poor preparedness can largely be attributed to their instructors/flight school. What shocks me is how much the DPE''s charge now.
 
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Don't worry, there are plenty of unprepared people out there.

It doesn't shock me what DPE's charge. They are generally some very senior instructors/pilots, and should be paid for their time. Their time includes all the FAA paperwork BS.

That and the fact that it is a FAA induced Monopoly, and you get what you get. The FAA could open up to more DPE's and the cost would come down. Would the quality also drop, I don't know? But the cost would if they weren't all booked weeks out.
 
FSDO Monitoring of DPE Performance
The Inspector's Handbook requires FSDOs to perform inspections of DPEs at the time of annual renewal, for high-activity examiners, and under the following circumstances:
(1) an examiner whose practical test passing rate exceeds 90 percent, (2) an examiner who conducts three or more complete practical tests on a given day, (3) an examiner who tests a student trained by that examiner without approval from the supervising FSDO, (4) an examiner whose certification file error rate exceeds 10 percent, (5) an examiner who is the subject of a valid public complaint, or (6) an examiner who has been involved in an accident, incident, or FAR violation.
 
I don't know if this is true, or not. The DPE who failed me on my first IR ride did it fair and square. I got too low on a non-precision approach. Didn't have that problem on the re-ride. If that helped him on his failure rate, so be it.
 
Clip4 said:
FSDO Monitoring of DPE Performance
The Inspector's Handbook requires FSDOs to perform inspections of DPEs at the time of annual renewal, for high-activity examiners, and under the following circumstances:
(1) an examiner whose practical test passing rate exceeds 90 percent, (2) an examiner who conducts three or more complete practical tests on a given day, (3) an examiner who tests a student trained by that examiner without approval from the supervising FSDO, (4) an examiner whose certification file error rate exceeds 10 percent, (5) an examiner who is the subject of a valid public complaint, or (6) an examiner who has been involved in an accident, incident, or FAR violation.
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I think this pretty much answers the question. If an instructor's failure rate is too low, he should be investigated. Maybe the investigation will show that he was doing a great job.
Dana said:
Sounds like a theory made up by a student who didn't want to take responsibility for his own failure.
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I think this pretty much explains why and how the rumor got started.
 
Clip4 said:
FSDO Monitoring of DPE Performance
The Inspector's Handbook requires FSDOs to perform inspections of DPEs at the time of annual renewal, for high-activity examiners, and under the following circumstances:
(1) an examiner whose practical test passing rate exceeds 90 percent, (2) an examiner who conducts three or more complete practical tests on a given day, (3) an examiner who tests a student trained by that examiner without approval from the supervising FSDO, (4) an examiner whose certification file error rate exceeds 10 percent, (5) an examiner who is the subject of a valid public complaint, or (6) an examiner who has been involved in an accident, incident, or FAR violation.
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What is #4, it seems to conflict with #1? File error rate?


Tom
 
There’s some thruth to this. We had a local DPE get investigated and ultimately removed because of a high pass rate.

The FSDO will get suspicious and use their ride along to nail a DPE if they let something slide.
 
JOhnH said:
Even if it is true, it doesn't mean that if he has passed 8 in a row, he has to fail the next 2. For instance, if he examines 50 people in a year then he should probably have failed 10 of them. Doesn't sound bad to me. I don't want DPE's rubber stamping all their examinees.
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But the DPE is *SUPPOSED* to be a check on qualified airmen. A CFI isn't supposed to be approving people to take the exam who are not able to pass it. It should be the EXCEPTION that the DPE finds a nonqualified applicant.
 
Even if (and it's a big if) the overall statistics say that 10% of applicants fail, applying statistics like that to small numbers (realistically how many applicants will a DPE examine in a year?) like 10 is grossly unfair.

If a DPE is letting things slide, sure bust 'em. But if they're getting wrapped around the axle because of numbers? Not cool.
 
JOhnH said:
I think this pretty much answers the question. If an instructor's failure rate is too low, he should be investigated. Maybe the investigation will show that he was doing a great job.

I think this pretty much explains why and how the rumor got started.
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If I heard it from another student I wouldn't have believed it, but I heard it straight from the DPE which makes me wonder
 
jsstevens said:
Even if (and it's a big if) the overall statistics say that 10% of applicants fail, applying statistics like that to small numbers (realistically how many applicants will a DPE examine in a year?) like 10 is grossly unfair.

If a DPE is letting things slide, sure bust 'em. But if they're getting wrapped around the axle because of numbers? Not cool.
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Realistically? A full-time DPE can probably get a couple hundred in a year. I’m not sure what numbers the FAA uses, but if the DPE is only doing 10 or 20 a year, I’d bet he’ll lose his authorization due to lack of activity.

As far as getting wrapped around the axle about numbers, that’s what the FAA does...appropriate or not, logbooks and numbers are the only way they have to evaluate a lot of things.
 
My first check ride was postponed due to the fact that my night cross country was a few miles short (5 to be exact) of the 50 from departure point even though it was longer than needed in total distance. The DPE was very thorough to say the least, he was completely fair and didn't charge me either.
He also charged in two parts, one for the oral and one for the flying, $300 each. If you didn't pass the oral you didn't pay for the flying.
He covered every point in the ACS in one way or another.
 
Ghery said:
I don't know if this is true, or not. The DPE who failed me on my first IR ride did it fair and square.
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Yep, same for me. I screwed up the NDB approach on my own. No one helped me get more than 10 degrees off course.

We finished up the ride so all I had to do on the re-ride was the NDB approach. We did that at another airport and back to home. The DPE told me to do a visual approach and land. After so many hours of flying under the hood I was afraid I would bust the IR check ride on a visual approach and landing.!! :rofl:
 
Only did two checkrides in my life. First was with the chief pilot of the 141 school that had examining authority. My flight instructor who was employed there was also my roommate. In all the time we were hanging around together, I knew of only one student who ever flunked the 141 ride. The final stage check was as rigorous as the real checkride (maybe moreso). I've got stories about the guy who failed (multiple times). He definitely deserved it each time.

My instrument ride was with a DPE. I felt the ride was direct, relevant, and fair. The only interesting part was when we were discussing what I'd really do in the case of a lost comm situation. He accepted my answer even though he felt obliged to repeat the official FAA party line.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Realistically? A full-time DPE can probably get a couple hundred in a year. I’m not sure what numbers the FAA uses, but if the DPE is only doing 10 or 20 a year, I’d bet he’ll lose his authorization due to lack of activity.

As far as getting wrapped around the axle about numbers, that’s what the FAA does...appropriate or not, logbooks and numbers are the only way they have to evaluate a lot of things.
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Really? I would think a glider DPE with 20 a year is would be pretty good.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Realistically? A full-time DPE can probably get a couple hundred in a year. I’m not sure what numbers the FAA uses, but if the DPE is only doing 10 or 20 a year, I’d bet he’ll lose his authorization due to lack of activity.

As far as getting wrapped around the axle about numbers, that’s what the FAA does...appropriate or not, logbooks and numbers are the only way they have to evaluate a lot of things.
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Yeah, I guessed around 200 if that's their main gig. Up to 2 a day. I used the 10 because it was used earlier in the thread.

If they want to flag and evaluate a DPE because less than 10% fail, OK. But evaluate not just arbitrarily shut down. (Yes, it's the FAA arbitrary is what they (sometimes) do.
 
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