DPEs: how firm is the >50NM rule? Would distances of 49.5NM be rounded up?

[texasclouds]

Trust me, DPEs will always round down! Go fly for real brah. What else are you skimping by for on training?

 

[Clip4]

TL;DR is have a professional attitude and go above and beyond. Splitting hairs about 0.2NM is not what a DPE wants to do. They want to see you well beyond compliant of regulations.

oh hehe, I just saw the email with your original reply. lol.

Actually the DPE could care less if you exceed the regulations. You either meet the requirements or you don’t.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Actually the DPE could care less if you exceed the regulations. You either meet the requirements or you don’t.

The DPE may care, and probably does, but he can’t let that influence his evaluation.

 

[Clip4]

The DPE may care, and probably does, but he can’t let that influence his evaluation.

Care:

1. a state of mind in which one is troubled; worry, anxiety, or concern:.
2. a cause or object of worry, anxiety, concern, etc.:

 

[sarangan]

Hi everyone! I am planning my first solo cross country, and there is one airfield that is 49.5 miles away from my home airport as measured from the geographic centers of both airports.

Would KLZU → KTOC be accepted by a DPE as a cross-country?

I figure KAHN → KPDK at 48.9 NM is not acceptable, but what about something like KRYY→6A2 at 49.8NM?

Don't try to shortcut the intent of this rule. I like to think of it as the number of 'visibility blocks' rather than raw miles. If visibility is 5 miles, and you are flying 50 miles, you are flying 10 blocks. When I used to fly in New Mexico, I always felt that the 50NM rule was like cheating. You can almost always see the destination right after takeoff. The 50 mile trip was not much of a navigation exercise other than for checking the box.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Care:

1. a state of mind in which one is troubled; worry, anxiety, or concern:.
2. a cause or object of worry, anxiety, concern, etc.:

Yup… “this idiot meets standards, but I’m troubled, worried, or concerned that his lack of giving a **** about proficiency is going to kill someone.”

or, we could go with the one you chose to leave out…
3. Interest, regard, or liking.

 

[RussR]

We did greater than 50 miles with 4 total airports. Our DPE refused to accept the flight stating it needed to be 3 airports.

Actually the DPE could care less if you exceed the regulations. You either meet the requirements or you don’t.

I'm going to assume you meant "couldn't", and at least in Forane's example, apparently the DPE rejected him for exceeding the requirements. Which is ridiculous, but there it is.

 

[Steamflyer]

Lot of ink spilled to say that 50 = 50. Wow. Anyhow, some time ago, the long x/c was 100 nm legs x3 for a minimum of 300 nm. Nothing but VORs and pilotage available either. You could actually get lost once upon a time.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Lot of ink spilled to say that 50 = 50. Wow. Anyhow, some time ago, the long x/c was 100 nm legs x3 for a minimum of 300 nm. Nothing but VORs and pilotage available either. You could actually get lost once upon a time.

I used to know someone who managed all of her cross country flights to fall within Approach Control airspace, with frequencies noted on her charts so that when (not if) she got lost, she could ask for vectors.

She also had LORAN, which for those purposes is pretty close to GPS. Some people really are that talented.

 

[Steamflyer]

For en route LORAN is indeed about the same as GPS w/o as nice a map. I think many units could be coupled to an Argus green map but never had that luxury myself. Somehow it was sad when they shut the chain down not that long after closing the mid-continent gap.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

I used to know someone who managed all of her cross country flights to fall within Approach Control airspace, with frequencies noted on her charts so that when (not if) she got lost, she could ask for vectors.

She also had LORAN, which for those purposes is pretty close to GPS. Some people really are that talented.

Impressive

 

[JackFliesGA]

Don't try to shortcut the intent of this rule. I like to think of it as the number of 'visibility blocks' rather than raw miles. If visibility is 5 miles, and you are flying 50 miles, you are flying 10 blocks. When I used to fly in New Mexico, I always felt that the 50NM rule was like cheating. You can almost always see the destination right after takeoff. The 50 mile trip was not much of a navigation exercise other than for checking the box.

My deeper wondering is about the intent of the rule. As some folks pointed out already, it’s probably set at >50NM so you’d have to pick a handful of navigation references in between.

Envious of your visibility in New Mexico! I think the farthest I’ve ever seen is about 15NM? I’ll actually try to measure next time I’m flying in air that clear.

The visibility blocks is an interesting mental model. I’m curious why you use it?

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

My deeper wondering is about the intent of the rule.

Respectfully, this may be a waste of mental energy. Focus on flying. Show you are serious. Get in the air and do the requirements.

One could likely spin their wheels on the ground for long enough to forget entirely about the reason for wanting to go near airplanes in the first place. Why 40 hrs instead of 42 hrs or 39 hrs? Why 1500 hrs instead of something with meaning like 1776 hrs. Why 3 approaches instead of 4 approaches. Why is 201 hp single engine high performance but a twin with a pair of 200 hp engines not high performance.

Only a suggestion. Do the work. Learn the skills. Memorize as needed. Satisfy the requirements. Pass the checkride. Fly and enjoy. Move on to the next certificate and rating.

 

[WDD]

Hi everyone! I am planning my first solo cross country, and there is one airfield that is 49.5 miles away from my home airport as measured from the geographic centers of both airports.

Would KLZU → KTOC be accepted by a DPE as a cross-country?

I figure KAHN → KPDK at 48.9 NM is not acceptable, but what about something like KRYY→6A2 at 49.8NM?

KRYY to KAHN is 64 NM. I did that a lot to get my X country requirement for IR prerequisite.

And as others have stated, no, even 49.9 is not allowed. It is black and white.

BTW - where is your home airport?

 

[Half Fast]

I used to know someone who managed all of her cross country flights to fall within Approach Control airspace, with frequencies noted on her charts so that when (not if) she got lost, she could ask for vectors.

She also had LORAN, which for those purposes is pretty close to GPS. Some people really are that talented.

Which airline?

 

[Clip4]

Yup… “this idiot meets standards, but I’m troubled, worried, or concerned that his lack of giving a **** about proficiency is going to kill someone.”

or, we could go with the one you chose to leave out…
3. Interest, regard, or liking.

 

[Clip4]

If you met the bozos that are passing the CFI practical test these days you would understand DPEs don’t really care.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you met the bozos that are passing the CFI practical test these days you would understand DPEs don’t really care.

Not caring and not being able to do anything about it are two different things.

 

[brcase]

Look at it this way.... let's say you pick a different airport pair and your tool is giving you 50.0 miles. How do you know that the DPE might use a different tool that might call it 49.9 miles.

Here is what my DPE told me. if you have a reasonably well known App that says it is 50.1nm or even 50.01nm (note 50.0, is also not greater than 50 miles) and you did your planning based on that app. He will take a photo of your app showing the distance greater than 50 miles and put in his files so when his POI (FAA Principal Operations Inspector) or anyone else inquires he will have documentation showing why he approved it.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL

 

[Anthem]

we have a few airports that are like 48, 49.5 nm away. Ive heard of some DPE's who know the exact flight distances, bounce this as qualifying for XC.. . I've also heard one DPE that saw the flight going outbound in another direction and then over and bounced that because it says 50nm from the origin airport. But if the student had actually logged it as origin to other airport. And then the airport to the > 50nm XC airport - it would have been fine. . . but apparently not how he did it. Now I think bouncing it because of that was kind of a dickish thing to do, but hey - if you know that its marginal, you probably should have made damn sure it was logged the way you wanted it to be shown.

 

[Eric Pauley]

we have a few airports that are like 48, 49.5 nm away. Ive heard of some DPE's who know the exact flight distances, bounce this as qualifying for XC.. . I've also heard one DPE that saw the flight going outbound in another direction and then over and bounced that because it says 50nm from the origin airport. But if the student had actually logged it as origin to other airport. And then the airport to the > 50nm XC airport - it would have been fine. . . but apparently not how he did it. Now I think bouncing it because of that was kind of a dickish thing to do, but hey - if you know that its marginal, you probably should have made damn sure it was logged the way you wanted it to be shown.

I don’t think that’s absurd at all. An applicant should understand the requirements. That includes the requirements for logging XC time.

 

[brcase]

They want to see you well beyond compliant of regulations.

What the DPE I usually use wants is for you to Pass. It is easier for him and you both. Less paperwork and he is already overbooked, he doesn't want to have to reschedule a retest. Plus he just likes bringing new pilots into the system.

What he likes about going beyond the minimums is that, when he looks in your log book and sees 60 to 80 hours total, with 20+ hours of solo time and 3 or 4 cross country flights with maybe 10+ hours, he knows this should be an easy check ride. When he sees 40.1 hrs total time, 10.0 hours of solo and 5.0 hrs of solo X-country time all within 75 miles of the airport (or 26 miles, if you fudged to 25nm each way), he knows, from his experience of doing hundreds of checkrides, that if you pass it will likely be that you just barely meet the ACS requirements, just like all your experience just barely meets the minimums. There are of course rare exceptions to this but statistically more experienced pilots have a better pass rate. Wish I had data to prove it, but I only have what DPE's have told me as evidence.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL.

 

[brcase]

I don’t think that’s absurd at all. An applicant should understand the requirements. That includes the requirements for logging XC time.

Just had a applicant headed for an instrument check ride that was 25 hours short on his cross country time because much of what he logged as cross country didn't include a landing 50nm from the original airport. Fortunately this error was caught prior to going the check ride, but is a significant setback in getting his instrument rating.
So yes understanding the requirements is important.


Brian

 

[Palmpilot]

Q: Why greater than 50 nm?

A: They have to draw the line somewhere.

If they said > 49.9 was OK, someone would come along and ask, "Is > 49.8 OK?"
If they said > 49.8 was OK, someone would come along and ask, "Is > 49.7 OK?"
Repeating that process would eventually get you to zero, i.e., no distance requirement at all.

 

[TommyG]

Lot of ink spilled to say that 50 = 50. Wow. Anyhow, some time ago, the long x/c was 100 nm legs x3 for a minimum of 300 nm. Nothing but VORs and pilotage available either. You could actually get lost once upon a time.

That was my long x country back in 93. I push my students to do at least 250 on their long x country. 150 is a joke.

 

[WDD]

 

[JackFliesGA]

He will take a photo of your app showing the distance greater than 50 miles and put in his files so when his POI (FAA Principal Operations Inspector) or anyone else inquires he will have documentation showing why he approved it.

Thanks Brian, these are really helpful insights! It's actually reassuring to know that DPEs can also audited and held to a rigorous standard. I might even say it's nice to understand how these regulations are enforced in a way that ensures student pilots don't take shortcuts.

What the DPE [...] likes about going beyond the minimums is that [...] he knows this should be an easy check ride. When he sees 40.1 hrs total time, 10.0 hours of solo and 5.0 hrs of solo X-country time all within 75 miles of the airport (or 26 miles, if you fudged to 25nm each way), he knows, from his experience of doing hundreds of checkrides, that if you pass it will likely be that you just barely meet the ACS requirements, just like all your experience just barely meets the minimums.

Also appreciate getting this glimpse into how DPEs see the student pilot population This parallel's my experience as a public school math teacher. I know that when a student goes beyond the minimum to pass, when they use all my strategies and shows all their work, stays neat and organized when they don't have to, I have every confidence that they're beyond proficient in the material.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My deeper wondering is about the intent of the rule. As some folks pointed out already, it’s probably set at >50NM so you’d have to pick a handful of navigation references in between.

The deeper intent of the xc requirements for various certificates and ratings is for you to gain experience in less familiar territory than your backyard. You'll have to do a 150nm version too (it used to be 300).

I'm late to this thread - looking at just the title, is this another one about not really wanting to fly?

 

[guest user]

In reference to the 50nm question, I too would point to the pre-GPS days. The idea was to prove you could navigate only using your tools and not local knowledge.

Sure, if you knew that was uncle Ben's barn right there and the airfield was slightly to the north of that, thats easy. But what if you were plunked somewhere where you weren't familiar with the area? Could you navigate that w/ just the tools available to you, or would you hopelessly wander around until you ran out of fuel and crash? Everyone sees the value in this so it is approved. The next question was "at what distance should we set this?" I would imagine 25nm came up, but was considered too short and most likely you could still use uncle Ben's barn as a point of reference. So it then moved to 50nm. I would be surprised if the number were based upon extensive statistical research rather than "I think a pilot in training would have to use their tools instead of local memory to complete this flight" type reasoning.

Nowadays it is a lot easier than it used to be. Now you punch it in the GPS (in the plane, your tablet, your phone, etc) and follow the magenta line. Before that you still had VORs you could use and cross-reference along w/ a paper map. So never really a very hard task, but some had more of a stress factor than others.

Good luck w/ your solo.

 

[ateamer]

Why try to scrape by with the bare minimum? You love to fly, right? Why not do a 60 or 70 mile flight? It’ll cost an extra, what, 20 bucks, but there won’t be any question about if it was far enough, you get more time in the sky, and you’re programming yourself to do more than just enough to be legal.

 

[BMan]

Still early in my training, but I'm surprised it's only 50nm.

 

[WDD]

IMHO and my experience, a good mindset is that getting the PPl just means that you don't need an instructor to sign off on your log books anymore. When you first get the PPL think of it as becoming an advanced student pilot.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

When I learned to fly at Murfreesboro Municipal airport we did cross country flights to Fayetteville, TN because when you took a ruler and measured it you were right at 50nm. A decade or two later apps & websites became common/popular for flight planning.
Turns out it was 49.9nm...
About a decade ago they lengthened the runway from 3,000ft to 4,753ft and now they are exactly 50.0nm from each other.
Given the tools available at the time we were meeting the intent and letter of the regs.
My vote? Find some place 55nm away & fly there.

 

[brcase]

Thanks Brian, these are really helpful insights! It's actually reassuring to know that DPEs can also audited and held to a rigorous standard. I might even say it's nice to understand how these regulations are enforced in a way that ensures student pilots don't take shortcuts.


Also appreciate getting this glimpse into how DPEs see the student pilot population This parallel's my experience as a public school math teacher. I know that when a student goes beyond the minimum to pass, when they use all my strategies and shows all their work, stays neat and organized when they don't have to, I have every confidence that they're beyond proficient in the material.

Thank you, for an additional insight... I have been using this DPE for 25 years.. he tells me he has only been called into his POI's office once due to his pass/fail rate. He one year where his fail rate was close to 40% failing when normally it is more like less than 10%. (IIRC the numbers correctly). The POI asked why his fail rate was so high and he had to explain that one pilot flew to the wrong city on the cross country task (ie got lost), one put him into a spin on the Stalls demonstration, another would have ran off the edge of the runway had he not intervened, and yet another would have busted class C airspace had he not intervened. And a list of similar events. The POI responded, with OK, I just wanted to make sure you "weren't' becoming a hard a$$ examiner".

Brian

 

[MauleSkinner]

Nowadays it is a lot easier than it used to be. Now you punch it in the GPS (in the plane, your tablet, your phone, etc) and follow the magenta line. Before that you still had VORs you could use and cross-reference along w/ a paper map. So never really a very hard task, but some had more of a stress factor than others.

Except that you still have to demonstrate pilotage and dead reckoning for the checkride.

 

[flyingpreacher]

14 CFR 61.109(a)(5)(ii) states "MORE THAN 50NM." 49.99 or even 50.00 does not qualify as "more than." So how flexible are DPEs? As flexible as the regulations allow.

 

[Initial Fix]

When I did my PP I planned my long cross country with my good old ASA plotter. I measured middle of the airport to middle of the destination airport to find the the 150 mile leg airport pair. I had to change flight schools (why isn’t important) and my new instructor said it didn’t count as it wasn’t more than 150, so I flew another not knowing any better. When I did my checkride the examiner said the first was just fine as it was “inside the airport circle to airport circle “. Granted this was long before digital flight planning was a thing.

 

[Matthew]

And don't forget there's a 5hr requirement on solo XC flights, too. Don't be "that" guy that finishes at 4.9 hrs and has to do another XC. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's another couple hundred dollars for an extra 6 minutes. It happens.

 

[RussR]

I wonder if, when faced with being turned down due to a 49.9 NM XC, any student has ever mentioned that the regulations don't say the distance is measured between the airport reference points.

Rather, the flight has to be 50 NM between the point of departure and the point of landing (and other similar statements in the various sections).

So, the hopelessly argumentative applicant would claim that he measured the distance between his point of rotation and point of touchdown, and look, it's 50.1 NM! At most big airports there could easily be a difference of over a mile between takeoff/landing point and ARP.

I imagine this IS actually a pretty typical issue for helicopter pilots, where they may take off from some random field and land in some other random field, and just have to measure the distance between the actual departure and landing points.

 

[Albany Tom]

To the OP, two thoughts for free, possibly worth same:

1 - Generally speaking, picking an argument with your instructor is a bad idea. Doing something that might start an argument with your DPE is a lousy idea. Their job is to make sure you are safe to fly before they sign you off. Doing something weird won't enhance your position. Neither you nor the DPE want you to fail, but if they see one weird or questionable they're automatically going to look for more weird or questionable.

2 - With flying GA, generally speaking, you don't want to do anything that requires any sort of numerical precision. How much fuel should you have when you land? Lots. How much runway do you have, compared to what you need? Plenty. Are you close to max gross? Not even. You have to know how to run the numbers on all of that stuff, and you are supposed to have sense enough to know that typically the wind is higher than you think, the engine a little more tired, the tires a little low, and that your leaning skills aren't perfect. You need to build a safety margin in everything you do. It needs to become second nature.

Good luck, and stay safe.